@abc, it’s impolite, unnecessary and annoying. It’s also potentially dangerous because braking can cause the person behind you to brake. This leads to a ripple effect bringing traffic to a halt several hundred yards back & can cause accidents. How often do you drive on a motorway & have to brake sharply with no apparent reason for the hold up? It happens quite often on the M25.
So now the tech is causing the accidents? If the car in front has just overtaken you then he is going faster unless he is already braking because he is about to miss his exit. If he isn't braking then there is no need to brake, if the car is braking for you that is what is causing the problem. If it's such a big issue turn CC off and drive the car yourself.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
abc wrote:
Gordyjh wrote:
@abc, it’s nothing to do with perceived danger, merely the fact that they pull in so close that your cruise control brakes you. It’s unnecessary & aggravating.
But should that bother anyone? Sure, it’s unnecessary and the algorithm probably could be improved to reduce that. But the cruise control would resume once the gap open up to acceptable distance?
Lot of people getting hung up about the automated controls, but this isn't really so much about them as just poor driving. If your actions cause another road user to take some action then you've failed; whether the avoiding action is manual or automatic isn't the point.
I'm somewhat ambivalent about these fancy driving aids, having only ever experienced them once, and that was just the 'keep in lane' function and I wasn't driving anyway, but I do worry that the more the car does for the driver the less attention the driver needs to be paying to the road, and that surely can't be viewed by anyone as a good thing, can it?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:
What I object to are your constant assertions that it's better to have a basic car rather than something with modern technology in it,
Crippety crappety, @Raceplate. Find me just ONE assertion of that kind. The only context in which I've asserted my car is better is in the context of keyless technology, which I've suggested is a solution to a non-existent problem. Your suggestion that it's good for demented old ladies is as irrational as it is offensive.
If your actions cause another road user to take some action then you've failed
This. Totally this.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I think people are missing the point all these fancy gadgets are a aid to driving. I personally use all that's available to me but if you start to rely on them and loose focus on driving ie not noticing the the car in front slowing then it's time to pull over and have a break to gey your shite together.
As for French drivers..... give me the M6 any day.
They should have put control ON for that last test to see what the systems would do in comparison. Not possible to judge otherwise as tge E has wheel speed synchronisation anyway regardless of switcing control fir driver, that's how the motors work when not mechanically linked front to back.
After all it is free
After all it is free
stuarth wrote:
@luigi,
Costs about $50 or about 30 minutes with a wrench and a jack.
A cordless drill or impact driver with suitable attachments and jack can make it a *really* fast operation to change wheels over. You can jack the car up/down in ~10 seconds. Basically, I go around and loosen all the nuts with a breaker bar, do everything with the drill, and then a final round with the torque wrench to get them all tightened properly before checking pressures.
And suitable sockets for your car if you don't have a socket set. They can be had for under a £5 on eBay individually.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Chaletbeauroc wrote:
abc wrote:
Gordyjh wrote:
@abc, it’s nothing to do with perceived danger, merely the fact that they pull in so close that your cruise control brakes you. It’s unnecessary & aggravating.
But should that bother anyone? Sure, it’s unnecessary and the algorithm probably could be improved to reduce that. But the cruise control would resume once the gap open up to acceptable distance?
Lot of people getting hung up about the automated controls, but this isn't really so much about them as just poor driving. If your actions cause another road user to take some action then you've failed; whether the avoiding action is manual or automatic isn't the point.
But as chris_n pointed out above, the car which overtaken you were going at a faster pace. So there’s no need to brake.
Yes, seems like the cruise control may have a shortcoming in that situation. But if so, you can either turn off the automation, or just accept its current shortcoming if you don’t want to bother. Either way, it isn’t so much the overtaking driver that’s the issue, as long as he doesn’t pull in right on top of your front bumper. It is still the expectation of the British driver or the automation that’s misinterpreting the situation.
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Not sure about others but my cruise control can sense when the car pulling in is going faster, there is a sub second pull off power (not brake) and then it continues at the planned speed. Obviously if they pull into the space that is closer than your desired distance control then it does slow you down as you would expect as its too close for safe driving, no different to if you were driving and wanted Xm gap.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Chris_n wrote:
Gordyjh wrote:
@abc, it’s impolite, unnecessary and annoying. It’s also potentially dangerous because braking can cause the person behind you to brake. This leads to a ripple effect bringing traffic to a halt several hundred yards back & can cause accidents. How often do you drive on a motorway & have to brake sharply with no apparent reason for the hold up? It happens quite often on the M25.
So now the tech is causing the accidents? If the car in front has just overtaken you then he is going faster unless he is already braking because he is about to miss his exit. If he isn't braking then there is no need to brake, if the car is braking for you that is what is causing the problem. If it's such a big issue turn CC off and drive the car yourself.
You can't predict in advance when you might need to do an emergency stop. If you could there would be no such thing.
When overtaking you should not pull in until there is a safe braking distance for the car behind period. If there is not a safe braking distance then both a driver aid or a manual driver should be braking to get a safe braking distance as soon as possible. Noting that if you have a dash cam, you now have footage that you could turn over to the police on the car in front should you choose to do so.
Remember the golden rule of driving is to be able to stop in the distance which you see to be clear ahead. Should some idiot who does not understand this pull into your lane inside that distance you have no option but to create it again as quickly as possible.
Hold ups as you describe on the motorway are caused people making bad lane changes that cause people behind to break.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
This is an interesting discussion but has become a bit heated!
The fact remains that all the fancy gizmos are “drivers aids”, they are designed to help the driver. And can be over-ridden easily. In the case where a car pulls back in too close to you, the choice is to allow your ACC to react so as to establish your chosen interval or to over-ride it (accelerate, brake or turn it off). That is no different to driving without the ACC you have the same choices available to you. And you should be alert and actively driving regardless of whether you have ACC or not.
The argument that ACC means you do not notice your speed gradually falling is also problematic. You should notice, in the same way as you would without the ACC. I certainly am very aware of the car slowing down when using driver assist, I monitor my speed as I would do otherwise and make choices based on best maintaining my target speed in a safe manner.
In short the technology is great, I think it improves safety and reduces fatigue. But it does not mean you can switch off, or that you have different choices available to you.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
One of the not so many things you are in total control when driving is the space you leave in front of the car. ACC does a great job at this as does manual driving if you are aware of what is happening around you. You cannot at all control space behind and somewhat to the left or right.
It’s Just like skiing you need to be aware of people in front and to the side and we all know it’s the skier behind / above who is responsible for the safety of the ones below even if they decide to suddenly stop, fall, cut in front etc.
I was once told that good skiiers also make good drivers as the have the 360 degree awareness. Hopefully this is a life skill that my kids are taking in as they progress their skiing.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I just have the bog standard cruise control which is useful on quiet motorways and I sometimes use it to stick to a speed limit when the road would normally allow me to drive a little faster but on most busy roads its more of a pain than traditional driving.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@zikomo, I was just making the point that there’s no need to cut up the driver you’ve just passed.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:
I was just making the point that there’s no need to cut up the driver you’ve just passed.
and that, I find, is a fault encountered much more often on French motorways than on British ones. British drivers tend to have the opposite fault; they pull out into the middle lane to pass something, then sit there for the next ten miles in case they encounter another vehicle they want to overtake!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Raceplate wrote:
You cannot look just at fatalities if you want the full picture.
I posited earlier that the only reason France has more fatalities is that the average speed of an accident is probably greater precisely because it is the same population in twice the land area. I'd probably also argue that the average age of a French car on the road is significantly greater than the average age of a car in the UK with the corresponding reduction in safety equipment. Therefore the % chance of dying in an accident is greater in France than the UK. But what about the chances of being in an accident in the first place?
These are the total road accidents numbers from the UN report for 2019 (last year available):
France 56,006 accidents with 3,237 deaths
UK 123,212 accidents with 1,808 deaths
Who are the worst drivers now???
Not sure about your population density argument - Spain and Sweden have significantly lower fatality rates than France but (I think) - similar and lower population density.
Belgium has similar rate to France and must be pretty dense (but that does line up with my prejudice about Belgian drivers ).
Netherlands is low like UK which could support the density argument but see above. Years ago I used to drive in NL and BE with work and always though driving standards were MUCH better north of the border.
Overall though I tend to agree that French driving on autoroutes is pretty decent. Lane discipline is good as you say. The things that I don't like (and where I think UK standards are a bit better):
1. cutting in (as discussed elsewhere). I was taught to pull in when the car is in your rear view mirror, not before, and I think that is a good guide to ensure safe and courteous gap
2. aggressive and pointless tail gating. e.g., I pull out to pass a slower moving vehicle and am driving on the speed limit, there is a car in front of me and I'm leaving a safe gap so can't speed up, I haven't passed the car inside me yet. What is the point of riding my bumper??? Obviously this happens in the UK but more in France
3. less than thoughtful "negotiation" for overtaking. If I am closing ground on a car in front but they are also closing ground on a truck in front of them then I will be aware that they will want to pull out to overtake the truck at some point and I will take care not to overtake them in a way that prevents them from doing so. I think it is just sensible driving awareness and good manners. Not everyone does that on UK motorways but most do. It is very much a minority sport in France. In practice this means that you need to pull out earlier on a French autoroute to avoid being boxed in. You adapt of course but I think it is suboptimal
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Your point 3 @jedster, I agree with in trying to blend things so that all get along there without otherwise involvement of each other.
I do feel sometimes though that the slower vehicle is particularly unaware of their vulnerability by pulling out without decently matching/considering other drivers. It raises their risk substantially, whether judged right or wrong.
If I've misjudged that closing on a slower moving vehicle while on inside lane, and can't blend it well with faster traffic, then I know I've just got to wait until that faster oncoming traffic clears me, then I can safely move.
Example though, we were trundling along in right lane from Geneva to Macon, needing right slip/split for routing, generally between heavy traffic while waiting mtrs for slip road, car in front of us (all doing 80/90 kph) suddenly decided to switch left into faster lane, apon which all hell breaks loose as approach traffic hits brakes etc, obviously judgments on both parts. Miraculously everyone avoided collecting anyone else, I was looking to shoulder as potential escape route but didn't need it ultimately.
But the feeling of "what on earth made them suddenly do that" prevailed. As noted, there's judgment involved for all parties, but raising their own risk so severely seems a bit daft.
French road markings do put a "lane swap prohibition" as I understand it near intersection to, I assume, try and guide behaviour at these more busy interaction points.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
my observations about French motorways are that, because they are generally 2 lane only most people do not hang around in lane 2, though they can tend to cut back in to lane 1 in quick, but you soon adapt.
whereas in the uk, it does not matter how many lanes there are, you will still get numpties who stay in an outside lane all the time. for instance you can be driving in lane 1 around the 5 lane section of the M25 at any time of day or night, and you will have someone sitting in lane 4 doing 60mph for the duration of their journey
i believe that motorway training, and lane discipline should be mandatory for the driving test, even if it is part of the theory test, as i appreciate not every learner driver will be close to a motorway.
the other thing i have noticed regarding French motorways, is that slip roads allowing you to join/exit motorways seem to be longer than in the uk, so you tend to get cars on french roads getting up to speed, and within visibility of other drivers before they join the carraigeway, where in the uk they are joining within 2 or 3 hundred metres.
it would be interesting to see what the stats are for accidents on uk motorways regarding the location of junctions.
just to add to this, at the end of my driving test nearly 40 years ago, when you had to answer a selection of highway code questions, i fecked up the section on joining and exiting motorways, and the examiner (after passing me) jokingly suggested i had an ambulance follow me on and off the motorway the first couple of times.
needless to say i re-visited that section again
I pull out to pass a slower moving vehicle and am driving on the speed limit, there is a car in front of me and I'm leaving a safe gap so can't speed up, I haven't passed the car inside me yet. What is the point of riding my bumper??? Obviously this happens in the UK but more in France
Sometimes with the ultra-aggressive light flashing..... If someone does that to me (only rarely as I generally don't have to drive on French motorways at busy times) I will extend the difference between me and the car in front so as to allow myself extra braking time in case of problems.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I think that if there were more motorways without speed limits like in Germany (and yes I know that there are limits in place on many sections) it would encourage better lane discipline, you wouldn't get people pulling out to overtake other vehicles without checking behind to see if a faster vehicle is approaching in the lane you are planning to use, and people would be less likely to hog lanes because they know that someone will be approaching from behind before long.
In my experience the quality of driving in Germany and the general enjoyment of doing so is much higher than in France. Though to be fair it's a lot better driving in France than Belgium. The main advantage of driving in France is that the motorways are a lot quieter, especially in the North.
Spain is not a bad place to drive either, they have some really nice smooth motorways too. It's always a disappointment to be back on the bumpy M20 when arriving in the UK.
After all it is free
After all it is free
When I first started driving in Italy (did several trips down from the French Alps to Genoa and back, and also drove through the MB tunnel and across the north of Italy to the Dolomites and back) I was quite pleasantly surprised at the standard of Italian driving which, in prejudiced style, I had anticipated would be dreadful.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
What’s a motorway ?
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
I only drove once in NZ - from Auckland to Wellington, with a diversion to spend a few hours at Ruapehu. In a busy day. Didn't encounter any motorways, or any terrible driving, but NZ accident stats are pretty bad!
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
pam w wrote:
I only drove once in NZ - from Auckland to Wellington, with a diversion to spend a few hours at Ruapehu. In a busy day. Didn't encounter any motorways, or any terrible driving, but NZ accident stats are pretty bad!
Lots of old used imports without active cruise control would probably be why
Also not helped by snow and all season tyres not being available.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:
Lots of old used imports without active cruise control would probably be why
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
On the topic of French driving and whether it is more dangerous , The Times today has a report on how France has a problem of 'toxic masculinity' in some of its drivers and are campaigning to reduce it. Amongst its findings are that 34% of drivers admit to deliberately tailgating which may explain why we have a perception of them being a little close at times.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Just got back from french trip and happy to report that I was not cut up by a slow Peugeot 206 moving into the fast lane, rammed from behind by a Luxembourger in their G-Wagon, nor undercut by a Chelsea tractor.
What I did try was using my speed limiter instead of the active cruise control and I think it made for a much smoother drive - wife commented that the car was a lot less jerky - also think I saved fuel as there were no surges in acceleration to close gaps and a lot more cruising down hill when in eco mode. Was quite relaxing as I was able to better control distance to the car in front and felt much more in control than trusting CC in some deceleration situations.
I set the limiter to 140Kph (shown as 133Kph on GPS) and simply just kept my foot pressed on the accelerator pedal and found myself subconsciously easing off in anticipation of slower situations and brake when needed. Car spent most of its time in 9th gear and less time auto-braking and accelerating. Was able to overide the limiter by pushing harder if needed to accelerate quickly. I did miss the "keep in lane" feature but definitely recommended.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
zikomo wrote:
This is an interesting discussion but has become a bit heated!
The fact remains that all the fancy gizmos are “drivers aids”, they are designed to help the driver. And can be over-ridden easily. In the case where a car pulls back in too close to you, the choice is to allow your ACC to react so as to establish your chosen interval or to over-ride it (accelerate, brake or turn it off). That is no different to driving without the ACC you have the same choices available to you. And you should be alert and actively driving regardless of whether you have ACC or not.
The argument that ACC means you do not notice your speed gradually falling is also problematic. You should notice, in the same way as you would without the ACC. I certainly am very aware of the car slowing down when using driver assist, I monitor my speed as I would do otherwise and make choices based on best maintaining my target speed in a safe manner.
In short the technology is great, I think it improves safety and reduces fatigue. But it does not mean you can switch off, or that you have different choices available to you.
This should be a sticky post !
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
2nd of April, outside the French requirements for winter tires and I was glad I had brand new winters on the front this morning as the resort road I was on was snow/ice covered. I think the plow must have been over them last night then it had rained on top of the few cm of snow he'd left, or it had melted and refrozen. The anti skid system was working overtime on the climb.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
).
