 Poster: A snowHead
|
'I can't see any way out of severe lockdown without some element of herd immunity to protect the small % who get badly ill.'
Well, now we are all clear on what Herd Immunity is, the problem we face is that without immunisation with a vaccine, we are not going to achieve it in the foreseeable future, so it's a bit of a moot point. Herd immunity isn't so much a %, as a point in time when the % of those immune in the community is enough to restrain any repeat outbreaks.
Getting to this point 'naturally' with repeated cycles of re-infection can take decades. But I could be being pessimistic - a more positive scenario would be 1. Coronavirus having a Herd Immunity point much lower than for other diseases e.g. 60% 2. Under 65s being able to get it without serious consequences (this is not definite yet despite what you read in the media) 3. so we can 'sacrifice' most under 65s, let them get it, while still isolating the over 65s - and hit Herd Immunity relatively quickly.
At this point, a lot of this is still uncertain.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
@snowhound,
| Quote: |
I can't see any way out of severe lockdown without some element of herd immunity
|
Worth taking a look on catch-up of the C4 documentary on S.Korea, who beat the virus without lockdown (even the mad religious sect epidemic) by test/track/trace/isolate.
They had had the "benefit" of the MERS pandemic a few years ago so had a lot of procedures already in place
https://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-country-that-beat-the-virus
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| snowhound wrote: |
I am a Physicist, not an virologist,
Lots of reports now out that for CV, you only need 20-30% rather than 60-70% because most people are asymptomatic and they do not transfer virus anywhere as quickly as people who are ill with it and who are coughing and spluttering all over the place. that and the fact people are being much more careful with hygiene etc. In general the easier it is to transmit, the higher the %-for example measles (with an R of 15-20) needs over 90-95% immunity to keep it in check. |
Source please? A few, if not "lots". 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Quote: |
so we can 'sacrifice' most under 65s, let them get it, while still isolating the over 65s - and hit Herd Immunity relatively quickly.
|
The arguments for isolating the over 65s (and other vulnerable groups) is logically separate from the scenario for developing herd immunity.
Personally I would be in favour of easing lockdown for everybody (with the proviso that the highly vulnerable can choose to shield themselves if they wish) to the point where the case load remains manageable for health services, remaining vigilant to the need to re-impose restrictions if necessary. That will imply different regimes for different parts of the country - thank goodness No 10 has now conceded that that will be necessary.
The great majority of the over 65s (especially women) will survive a dose of Covid-19 and contribute to a faster growth of "herd immunity" (always with the warning that, up to now, we don't know the extent to which having recovered from Covid confers immunity.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| skimastaaah wrote: |
| Pruman wrote: |
Professor Chris Whitty is a Fellow of the Royal College of Physicians
|
That's why I'm stunned the ridiculous "herd immunity" was championed by these guys.
BTW Skimastaaah …. got my Bronze Medallion. |
Because they KNOW herd immunity is the ONLY way we can back to a near normal life,at least until a vaccine becomes freely available and that's a big if as well as when it's just the idiot media haven't a clue and the anti government rhetoric has forced the idea underground for political reasons.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| geoffers wrote: |
@snowhound,
| Quote: |
I can't see any way out of severe lockdown without some element of herd immunity
|
Worth taking a look on catch-up of the C4 documentary on S.Korea, who beat the virus without lockdown (even the mad religious sect epidemic) by test/track/trace/isolate.
They had had the "benefit" of the MERS pandemic a few years ago so had a lot of procedures already in place
https://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-country-that-beat-the-virus |
They also have the benefit of a compliant and disciplined population, who by law have to have their whereabouts tracked by technology.
Meanwhile, our idiots mimic the utter stupidity of the US and rail against the "violation of their privacy".
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@NickYoung, nothing wrong with wanting to protect your privacy. It’s not like the UK govt have a particularly good track record in this area. And an app isn’t a golden ticket out of lockdown. Manual track and trace teams are likely to yield better quality results, but that’s something else the govt hasn’t managed to sort out.
Stupidity in the US wouldn’t be corrected by an app either, seeing as their main problem is the president himself.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| robs1 wrote: |
| skimastaaah wrote: |
| Pruman wrote: |
Professor Chris Whitty is a Fellow of the Royal College of Physicians
|
That's why I'm stunned the ridiculous "herd immunity" was championed by these guys.
BTW Skimastaaah …. got my Bronze Medallion. |
Because they KNOW herd immunity is the ONLY way we can back to a near normal life,at least until a vaccine becomes freely available and that's a big if as well as when it's just the idiot media haven't a clue and the anti government rhetoric has forced the idea underground for political reasons. |
“The delay in the face of emerging evidence that the Italian lockdown reduced viral transmission by about half looks likely to have cost many lives.”
The experts then ask the question: “How did a country with an international reputation for public health get it so wrong?”, adding that the Government has failed the public and health and social care staff.
They then suggest the fact Dominic Cummings, the Prime Minister’s chief political adviser, and Ben Warner, his adviser on data science, attended meetings of the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (Sage) “makes a mockery of Sage’s claim to provide independent scientific advice to the Government”.
Sage must therefore, going forward, exclude political advisers and recruit more public health experts and create a clear population strategy based on case finding, testing, contact tracing, and isolation, they said.
“Meaningless political soundbites promising to recruit 18,000 contact tracers, test 200,000 people a day, or invest in unjustified contact tracing apps, divert focus and could lead to more deaths.
“These headline-grabbing schemes should be replaced by locality led strategies rooted in communicable disease control.”
Read the rest of the rather damning article here …… https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/uks-covid-19-response-too-little-too-late-too-flawed-–-experts/ar-BB148DGp?ocid=spartandhp
“Meanwhile, a reckless policy of discharging older patients from hospitals to care homes without testing allowed the virus to spread and kick start a second epidemic of community infection.”
The Government’s chief scientific adviser Sir Patrick Vallance then “floated an approach to ‘build up some degree of herd immunity’ founded on an erroneous view that the vast majority of cases would be mild, like influenza”.
The Care Home disaster is only really becoming apparent now.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Scarlet wrote: |
@NickYoung, nothing wrong with wanting to protect your privacy. It’s not like the UK govt have a particularly good track record in this area. And an app isn’t a golden ticket out of lockdown. Manual track and trace teams are likely to yield better quality results, but that’s something else the govt hasn’t managed to sort out.
Stupidity in the US wouldn’t be corrected by an app either, seeing as their main problem is the president himself. |
You are missing the point.
In South Korea, Indonesia, Vietnam and others, you don't have a choice - your data is the govts data.
You can have the viral control of those countries, but you have to accept the same "privacy" laws.
The UK population won't do that - mainly because they've seen too many redneck vids and heard too much from neo-liberalists.
People will click away on Facebook, then protest at the notion of a govt public health app = idiots!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I'll tell you how it works.
I, all of a sudden, kept getting loads of ads for downstairs enlargement on Facebook!!
Obviously I contacted Facebook to complain and they, rather dismissively, told me the ads were generated and informed by my web-browsing habits. Furious!
I deleted Facebook and banned my wife from using my laptop search engine.
Then the ads stopped.
That showed 'em!
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
@skimastaaah, wrote
| Quote: |
The Care Home disaster is only really becoming apparent now.
|
And we have only seen the start of it. We are told that two-thirds of care homes have not yet been infected by Coronavirus. Very sadly, many of them will be, before we see the end of the story.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| NickYoung wrote: |
| Scarlet wrote: |
@NickYoung, nothing wrong with wanting to protect your privacy. It’s not like the UK govt have a particularly good track record in this area. And an app isn’t a golden ticket out of lockdown. Manual track and trace teams are likely to yield better quality results, but that’s something else the govt hasn’t managed to sort out.
Stupidity in the US wouldn’t be corrected by an app either, seeing as their main problem is the president himself. |
You are missing the point.
In South Korea, Indonesia, Vietnam and others, you don't have a choice - your data is the govts data.
You can have the viral control of those countries, but you have to accept the same "privacy" laws.
The UK population won't do that - mainly because they've seen too many redneck vids and heard too much from neo-liberalists.
People will click away on Facebook, then protest at the notion of a govt public health app = idiots! |
I don’t think I am. I’m aware of the privacy implications in those countries. Plenty of others have “viral control” without such implications; I live in one of them. An app is not going to solve all the problems, it is merely one tool in the box. If investment is not also made into other areas (testing, ppe, tracing etc.) it will not be successful.
I don’t believe “redneck vids” are much to do with it either. It’s more likely that 1. not everyone has a newish smartphone 2. not everyone trusts the govt with such personal data. Those that are aware of privacy issues, probably don’t expose themselves to other tracking as much as you think.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
'The UK population won't do that'
Well, have we been offered the option? No. Because our politicians are still in the 19th century in terms of understanding technology; and too timid to tell it how it is.
The SARS epidemic showed how vital it is to have a track-and-trace app as a key weapon in the pandemic arsenal. And that app has to be tested, refined and ready-to-download in the first month of an outbreak. Yes, there are issues of state vs individual to be discussed.
The best we can hope for now is that that we sort this out ahead of the next crisis i.e. that an effective app is developed based on our CV19 experience. and then politicians are honest and say that whenever we get a similar situation in the future, we will have to have it on our mobile phones whether we like it or not. But with all the frameworks needed to prevent it from being used after the crisis is over. If this needs debate, then let's have it now. But like the crises in funding elderly care and funding pensions, politicians across the political spectrum aren't keen to go there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| pam w wrote: |
@skimastaaah, wrote
| Quote: |
The Care Home disaster is only really becoming apparent now.
|
And we have only seen the start of it. We are told that two-thirds of care homes have not yet been infected by Coronavirus. Very sadly, many of them will be, before we see the end of the story. |
I can't bear the political points-scoring. It's all easy with hindsight.
I think too slow to lockdown care homes - should have shut down before society did.
Maybe a week too slow to shut schools??? But definitely a season too soon to open them (I work in education). When MPs go back = my 6yo & I go back.
Govt criticised as unnecessary (mainly by airlines) for q'teen for incoming travellers - Germany, Poland etc already have that. Criticised as unnecessary for introducing border controls = all EU have have them.
Too much media influence going on e.g. NHS provider bloke on BBC news today (he is usually v. critical of govt) tried to explain that a NHS worker who was featured on BBC "whistleblowing" on PPE, was actually...let's say loose with the truth. BBC host basically shut him down - didn't fit the narrative.
That P's me off because that nonsense undermines every real point you could make - it makes it harder to hold the establishment to account, when they can lump you in with the fake news sensationalists.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| NickYoung wrote: |
| Maybe a week too slow to shut schools??? But definitely a season too soon to open them (I work in education). When MPs go back = my 6yo & I go back. |
As long as you don't expect to be paid until you do then that's entirely your right?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
When MPs give up their salary, I will too.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
@NickYoung, we can't even leave the house without gov't permission. Normally everything is permitted unless explicitly told otherwise (littering, theft) but now it is the opposite. C19 is not a good enough reason to take away our basic human freedoms with the evidence that exists and existed in Feb/March.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
@LaForet, how does tracing work when one man gets on the train to Waterloo and then changes to the Tube? It's nonsense, SK took the hit on the chin probably without knowing it as Seoul is a megacity. You cannot trace hundreds of people and their contacts through that.
On another note: obesity rate SK: 2%. In the UK? 25%. Apparently Johnson wants a War on Obesity, no doubt by taxing nice things. When can we have a properly conservative gov't that expects others to take responsibility for themselves? If you are a glutton then you are likely to die earlier, v early in the case of C19. This is the individual's problem and whining about society isn't an excuse. STOP. EATING.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Scarlet wrote: |
I don’t think I am. I’m aware of the privacy implications in those countries. Plenty of others have “viral control” without such implications; I live in one of them. An app is not going to solve all the problems, it is merely one tool in the box. If investment is not also made into other areas (testing, ppe, tracing etc.) it will not be successful.
I don’t believe “redneck vids” are much to do with it either. It’s more likely that 1. not everyone has a newish smartphone 2. not everyone trusts the govt with such personal data. Those that are aware of privacy issues, probably don’t expose themselves to other tracking as much as you think. |
Any app is absolutely just one tool, but no country has handled this better than those with state-mandated data controls (we used to call them communist regimes, the fascist regimes, then...).
If you can't test (no capacity and reliable tests weren't available at the beginning of all this), can't trace (because not enough people will make themselves visible and share data), then you can't affect the spread of the virus through effective isolation.
The notion that govt will get any more info about you than they already have, because you download a particular app? People have no idea about the data held about them right now!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| justabod wrote: |
| @NickYoung, we can't even leave the house without gov't permission. Normally everything is permitted unless explicitly told otherwise (littering, theft) but now it is the opposite. C19 is not a good enough reason to take away our basic human freedoms with the evidence that exists and existed in Feb/March. |
What??
In Spain/France/Italy* (*delete as applicable) you had to carry a document stating when you came out, where you were going, why you were going, what time you were back.
Kids weren't allowed outside for 8 weeks. As an adult, you could only go outside at a specified time, for a specified duration.
Yet you think the Brits - who insist on sunbathing & BBQing in parks, drinking beers at the top of Malham Cove etc - are exercising their "basic human freedoms"???
What about my right not to be infected with a potentially fatal virus by a tin-foil hat wearing bellend?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| justabod wrote: |
@LaForet, how does tracing work when one man gets on the train to Waterloo and then changes to the Tube? It's nonsense, SK took the hit on the chin probably without knowing it as Seoul is a megacity. You cannot trace hundreds of people and their contacts through that.
On another note: obesity rate SK: 2%. In the UK? 25%. Apparently Johnson wants a War on Obesity, no doubt by taxing nice things. When can we have a properly conservative gov't that expects others to take responsibility for themselves? If you are a glutton then you are likely to die earlier, v early in the case of C19. This is the individual's problem and whining about society isn't an excuse. STOP. EATING. |
There's the rub.
No-one takes responsibility for their own actions and the state is always there to sort them out.
But that's a grown up society.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| NickYoung wrote: |
What about my right not to be infected with a potentially fatal virus by a tin-foil hat wearing bellend? |
Lockdown and the media have caused people to develop an irrational fear, stopping them from going to work and putting kids in school. Very sad when the reality is most people don’t know they even had the virus. Looking at the antibody testing results from the likes of New York, and so far in Sweden, it’s a small percentage that end up in hospital, a very small percentage in intensive care, and a fraction of one percent sadly die. The vast majority of these are >80 years old. The chance of someone less that 50 years old, much less a child, of getting seriously ill or dying, especially if they have no other illness or condition, is tiny.
Groups of young people are out together, in the pub, here in Sweden. I’m totally ok with that whilst the demand on the healthcare system remains within capacity (which it comfortably has so far). It’s the young that should be the ones to bring herd immunity 
It could be that we need much less than 60% for herd immunity for covid-19, other factors are at play, or the measures in Sweden (social distancing, working at home) work well - hospital places and intensive care cases relating to Covid-19 are well in decline.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| NickYoung wrote: |
| justabod wrote: |
| @NickYoung, we can't even leave the house without gov't permission. Normally everything is permitted unless explicitly told otherwise (littering, theft) but now it is the opposite. C19 is not a good enough reason to take away our basic human freedoms with the evidence that exists and existed in Feb/March. |
What??
In Spain/France/Italy* (*delete as applicable) you had to carry a document stating when you came out, where you were going, why you were going, what time you were back.
Kids weren't allowed outside for 8 weeks. As an adult, you could only go outside at a specified time, for a specified duration.
Yet you think the Brits - who insist on sunbathing & BBQing in parks, drinking beers at the top of Malham Cove etc - are exercising their "basic human freedoms"???
What about my right not to be infected with a potentially fatal virus by a tin-foil hat wearing bellend? |
Its easy to not get infected STAY IN YOUR HOME.
For those not running scared we need to get back to having a life earning a living to pay tax to pay for the sefvices we ALL need. Many of us have been working all the time. There are thousands of people who have got a few months left to live due to cancers etc etc what about their right to be able to enjoy their last few days with their families, seeing grandkids spending a few days at the beach etc etc, the same applies to care homes how about asking the residents what THEY want I suspect a good few will say that they would sooner see their families that be stuck in a suedo prison . then we have all those waiting for treatments for cancer or other problems, If YOU or others dont want to risk catching it then YOU take precautions.
The last stats I have seen say that 500 people under 40 have died 90% of which had diagnosed underlying health issues, not sure if that includes people like Boris IE too overweight then of course how many have undiagnosed problems such as diabetes or severe vit D deficiency ? The reality is that the huge majority of people will not be ill enough to require hospital treatment even those above 70 only have a 10 % chance of dying and the most common health issue among those dying at that age is dementia, while no one wants to lose a loved one when you have seen a parent suffer with it it can be a release for them to have a swift end.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
'For those not running scared'
No one is 'running scared' - we are just following the advice of our Government and of eminent and experienced medics, based on science and past epidemics. This is a much more subtle situation than a simple choice between 30,000 early elderly deaths vs millions of jobs. Even if you couldn't care less about elderly people dying, it's clear from around the world that there's a huge economic impact to people getting this virus on a large scale, so we don't want that.
Labelling people as cowards isn't helpful.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I see a lot of people saying I’m not putting my kids in school or going to work until it’s “safe” with no answer to what they consider “safe” to mean and for how long they anticipate to continue that stance. The UK government needs to reel in this furlough scheme rapidly and only apply it to those in really stricken industries. The option to home school children in the UK isn’t good either.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
@Themasterpiece, Your table in your post is way out of date, currently 3646 deaths, 20500 infections, but more chillingly 361 deaths per million population with a population density of 25 per sqkm. Just bear in mind the UK population density is 281. The Swedish approach is not yet supported, half the deaths of Germany who has nearly 10 times the population!
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
@skimastaaah, its today stats for Stockholm and shows hospitalisations and ICU places. Me and over 70% of Swedes support the approach. I’m very happy to be living in Sweden during these times with relative freedom rather than locked down. Right, I’m off the pub 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| LaForet wrote: |
'For those not running scared'
No one is 'running scared' - we are just following the advice of our Government and of eminent and experienced medics, based on science and past epidemics. This is a much more subtle situation than a simple choice between 30,000 early elderly deaths vs millions of jobs. Even if you couldn't care less about elderly people dying, it's clear from around the world that there's a huge economic impact to people getting this virus on a large scale, so we don't want that.
Labelling people as cowards isn't helpful. |
Where does the "it's clear from around the world that there's a huge economic impact to people getting this virus on a large scale" come from? Surely it is "lockdown has been an expensive mistake that no politician involved in it will dare admit"
One the best comments I have come across is "If people want to lock themselves in because they’re scared of a virus that’s fine. It’s even the rational thing to do if they are at high risk. But that isn’t the point. The point is that it should be their choice.
Imagine if you could have a fine-grained intelligent lockdown where those who weren’t at risk could go out and build immunity while those who were could keep out of trouble, and in which nobody was forced to do anything or suffered harm and frustration from the unintended consequences of blunt instrument regulations. Oh wait you can. It’s called freedom. We should give it a try."
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| Themasterpiece wrote: |
| I see a lot of people saying I’m not putting my kids in school or going to work until it’s “safe” with no answer to what they consider “safe” to mean ... |
The Health Secretary, Matt Hancock, yesterday said it was "safe" to send kids to school. It's no wonder that the public aren't trying to consider risk and how to balance that across a multitude of competing priorities when our senior politicians say it's 'safe' to do something.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
@rob@rar, yes “risk” and “safe” mean different things to people. I consider it safe to work, send my child to school, because we have no medical issues and it’s obvious to me based on the data that the risk is extremely minimal. More risk of being killed on the journey there probably. But people that take the view it’s isn’t safe don’t seem to have a justification other that there’s a deadly virus out there and a chance to die. That’s going to be the case for a very long time potentially.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| LaForet wrote: |
'For those not running scared'
No one is 'running scared' - we are just following the advice of our Government and of eminent and experienced medics, based on science and past epidemics. This is a much more subtle situation than a simple choice between 30,000 early elderly deaths vs millions of jobs. Even if you couldn't care less about elderly people dying, it's clear from around the world that there's a huge economic impact to people getting this virus on a large scale, so we don't want that.
Labelling people as cowards isn't helpful. |
I didnt label anyone as cowards but if thats the word you want to use then thats fine. The risk of anyone under 60 dying is tiny as long as you arent in the at risk groups, which we now have a good idea of.
Those not in those groups have a duty to get on with life, to get infected so we get to herd immunity quicker so those in the vulnerable groups can come out of isolation with a lower risk. Its funny how people say that this view means I dont care about older folk, that is just not true, those vulnerable can stay isolated if they choose, Im sure those who have terminal illnesses or are in the twilight of life want to live their last few months not hiding in a self imposed prison, if not they can isolate, The advice from the goverment is to go to work but keep your distance, I have worked all the time as have many many people, now the rest need to man up and help the vulnerable
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| muddewater wrote: |
| ... One the best comments I have come across is "If people want to lock themselves in because they’re scared of a virus that’s fine. It’s even the rational thing to do if they are at high risk. But that isn’t the point. The point is that it should be their choice." ... |
This approach would only be okay if we are happy for it to apply to everyone. But that would probably mean that things like hospitals, food supply, electricity & water, rubbish collection, police/fire/ambulance services all gradually degrade. The majority of the population would prefer all of those services to keep running as normal - and to achieve that we have to remove some elements of free choice from everyone else.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| skimastaaah wrote: |
@Themasterpiece...
...with a population density of 25 per sqkm. Just bear in mind the UK population density is 281. The Swedish approach is not yet supported, half the deaths of Germany who has nearly 10 times the population! |
Population density is meaningless. So what if you have a large country with bug all people living in the top half? The covid-19 cases in Sweden are mostly in Stockholm, followed by other cities. Looking at population density only to make some in the UK feel a bit better. Percent urbanisation is more relevant, with Sweden at 87% and the UK at 83%.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| NickYoung wrote: |
| When MPs give up their salary, I will too. |
Why? they're still working.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| ecureuil wrote: |
| muddewater wrote: |
| ... One the best comments I have come across is "If people want to lock themselves in because they’re scared of a virus that’s fine. It’s even the rational thing to do if they are at high risk. But that isn’t the point. The point is that it should be their choice." ... |
This approach would only be okay if we are happy for it to apply to everyone. But that would probably mean that things like hospitals, food supply, electricity & water, rubbish collection, police/fire/ambulance services all gradually degrade. The majority of the population would prefer all of those services to keep running as normal - and to achieve that we have to remove some elements of free choice from everyone else. |
Yes- this is precisely the point that gets missed in the "you only need to protect the vulnerable" argument - those vulnerable people are highly reliant on carers, cleaners, nurses and doctors all of whom live in the community. Most care homes are served by their local GP, they don't have in-house doctors. These people have children who do/don't go to school, and they have to go shopping and sometimes use public transport. It's impossible to stop the "apparently safe" bubble intersecting on multiple occasions with the "vulnerable" bubble, thus we need to minimise the infectiousness of the "apparently safe" bubble. If the nurses for the Nightingale are taking the train to work, I'd much rather they weren't in a carriage full of people who thought their COVID didn't matter.
One trip to the shops showed me just how little we can trust the general population to understand a) how far 2m is, b) how to use a mask if you're going to wear one (not taking it on and off, scratching your face etc.), c) that by the time you've pushed a trolley along the queue for 30mins, it's too late to wipe the handles, and d) why arrows on the floor showing direction are important.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
I'm still working.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@NickYoung, Have you given up your salary?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Here’s a more practical rather than policy question. The guide I normally go to for my week of Swiss alpine climbing tells me that the Swiss mountains will be open for business. EasyJet are showing Edinburgh - Geneva flights as available in July. Is it likely that anything will stop me having a Swiss holiday in July? What are the risks, aside from the usual falling off mountains ones?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
@Valkyrie, Off the top of my head:
1. the UK subjects you to 14 days quarantine on your return
2. you catch CV-19 and are quarantined/hospitalised by the Swiss for a couple of weeks
3. your insurance refuses to pay out for anything CV-19 related
4. a surge in cases in Switzerland reduces the availability of mountain rescue services
5. Switzerland closes the borders again and makes it difficult for you to get home
1 and 5 may not bother you, 3 you may be able to self-insure for, and if 4 happened I'd expect the guide to cancel citing local regs anyway. 2 is something we all have to live with for a while. Maybe just make sure you have a decent contingency fund available should you need it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@Valkyrie, the Swiss border is currently closed, with no date set for it to reopen for tourists.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
