 Poster: A snowHead
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 @mgrolf, interesting exercise isn't it.
From the position of authoring working instruction that also had to be used to record worker competence in carrying out that task, one of the most crucial stages was to get someone detached to work entirely from that instruction. Only then can it be seen if there's any glaring wrong direction, the ambiguous or confusing elements and, subsequently the need edit etc to fulfill that operation.
No doubt car companies have taken this through their operating manuals, but it always surprised me just how obscure an interpretation an individual can make to that written word.
As noted previously, I believe they've safeguard in software to make it all but impossible to quit engine in circumstances that would endanger the occupants from that shut down. That may give risk in robbery etc, but hard to see just how they could fully mitigate that.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| ski3 wrote: |
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No doubt car companies have taken this through their operating manuals, but it always surprised me just how obscure an interpretation an individual can make to that written word. |
Not surprising at all, given that a large majority of (at least one half of the population) haven't read any part of the manual, well-written or otherwise. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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There's some little things built in tat many don't even realise.
For many years those with VAG key fob wouldn't know that if you double blip the open and hold it securely at the end of that second blip, then all the doors unlock, then the windows drop, plus the sunroof, if fitted, opens.
Close operation the opposite, double blip the close and hold, until all the above are shut.
Some Ford too, haven't tested others.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Waits to see how many now go and try this
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| zikomo wrote: |
@pam w, Our car will basically drive itself in the motorway. I use the technology and find it makes me a better driver, I spend more time and effort looking behind me and around me than otherwise. And definitely feel less tired after a long drive, so think I am in general more alert than without it.
My wife won't touch it. She is a very experienced driver having been a vanwoman in her younger years. She is so steady and calm, it's easy to fall asleep when she is driving! And quite happy in longer drives.
Each to their own. But there is no question that the electronic brain is much quicker to react than the organic version so the base technology is great to have. Whether you use the cruise control/driver assist functions or not, our car will react automatically if a collision is imminent. And I have heard of quite a few examples of where that avoided serious incident/injury. |
We are very much like you - maximise tech and focus on what is around me. My wife is also nervous with cruse control. Her solution is to drive with the speed limiter set at 130/140 and simply drives with her foot on the accelerator without having to worry about her speed but and backs off when she gets to a slower car - she feels in better control this way.
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I don't have any tech so do it the old fashioned way. No choice. I recognise my reactions will be slower than top tech and slower than they used to be. I drive defensively and if an overtaker cuts in too close - an annoying French tendency - or pulls into my lane too close, I just ease off to restore the gap I judge right. It doesn't bother me. With any luck the spread of the tech will in time stop people driving too close.
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| pam w wrote: |
| I don't have any tech so do it the old fashioned way. No choice. |
Rubbish. Nobody forced you to buy a Skoda Fabia with "no tech". You chose to.
| pam w wrote: |
| if an overtaker cuts in too close - an annoying French tendency - or pulls into my lane too close, I just ease off to restore the gap I judge right. |
I find the way French drivers drive on the autoroute extremely refreshing, and not at all annoying. I think they are extremely well disciplined in always indicating and pulling in and out on the autoroute as quickly as possible and I wish to God that British drivers were as well disciplined. I suspect the base reason is that French autoroutes are mostly two lanes so you'll get a lot of abuse if you hold other drivers up. If only the middle and outside lane hoggers in the UK had the same discipline!
| pam w wrote: |
| With any luck the spread of the tech will in time stop people driving too close. |
That is exactly what adaptive cruise control does.
But according you to you:
| pam w wrote: |
| I don't find long drives "tiring" exactly, or not in any way I think cruise control would help. |
and:
| pam w wrote: |
| My car does have some kind of second-class cruise control system but I've never bothered to find out how it works. |
Frankly, it's rather like a small child refusing to eat a meal because they "don't like it" when they've never even tried it.
I suggest you re-read the post below and open your mind towards modern tech instead of defending your old school crap all the time. The reaction here is extremely common when people actually try these things instead of disparaging them:
| DB wrote: |
| After a fun weekend of thermal baths, skiing and Apres Ski, the adaptive cruise control was a blessing during the approx. 4.5 hr drive back last Sunday night. At first I was „what do I need this for?“ but now I wouldn’t want to be without adaptive cruise control with the auto box on a long drive. |
And lastly:
| pam w wrote: |
| I tell you what's totally fool proof. Every car I've driven since 1963. Including my present one. |
It's the 3rd decade in the 21st century, not 1963!
Friday night rant over... 
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I think this thread was originally about too many French drivers in mountain regions not having winter or all-season tyres. I am in a French ski resort and I'd say almost all cars here have them.
I'll be returning to the UK tomorrow in my ordinary car, which has adaptive cruise control, which I use, but sometimes find slightly annoying because (of course) it slows down when there's a slower vehicle ahead, instead of getting on and overtaking, which is what I would do if driving 'manually'. It has also been confused a couple of times by those big green plastic arrow things on French autoroutes, which mark the split between the main carriageway and a slip road. But it's probably my fault because I 'chose' to buy a car with such an archaic system instead of spending loadsamoney on something man enough for the job.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Mon 6-02-23 18:52; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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One day, people will be a passenger in their own fully autonomous vehicles. It will come equipped with a dog to bite the "driver", should they think about assuming manual control.
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@Raceplate, French drivers often pull in so sharply after passing that the cruise control automatically brakes, that is unnecessary & aggravating.
I was umder the impression it’s a legal requirement to have winter tyres in the mountains in winter in France. Ever since I have motored to the Alps I have used winter tyres & it makes sense here as well - every year we see cars in the ditch in winter. I reckon the time to switch over is when the fuel consumption starts noticeably changing.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| caughtanedge wrote: |
| I'll be returning to the UK tomorrow in my ordinary car, which has adaptive cruise control, which I use, but sometimes find slightly annoying because (of course) it slows down when there's a slower vehicle ahead, instead of getting on and overtaking, which is what I would do if driving 'manually'. |
All cruise controls are overridden, but not cancelled, by the accelerator pedal. So if you want to drive up somebody's ass to get them to move out of the way, you can. Adaptive cruise has a distance to the next car setting. So if you want to be a more aggressive driver, just shorten the distance.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Gordyjh wrote: |
| @Raceplate, French drivers often pull in so sharply after passing that the cruise control automatically brakes, that is unnecessary & aggravating. |
So what? Surely having the car automatically braking and maintaining a safe distance is better than you as the driver having to do it manually? What's the issue?
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@Raceplate, the issue is you shouldn’t cut up the driver you’ve just passed. Are you one of those back bottoms who weaves in & out of the traffic on the M25 causing people to brake all the time?
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You know it makes sense.
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@Gordyjh, no I'm not but all we're debating here is a difference in perception. You think French drivers cut people up and I think they move out the way as quickly as possible. As most of their roads are two lanes, I prefer it that way.
I did spend 12 years driving in the Middle East though, so my perception of what constitutes dangerous driving is probably very different to anyone's that has mostly driven in the UK would be... 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I guess individually you will get good and bad drivers in each country and perceptions vary.
My perception of French drivers compared with British drivers collectively is that their lane discipline is better, but their distance control is worse.
Collectively there are more fatalities per inhabitant and per kilometer travelled in France
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Poster: A snowHead
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| ski3 wrote: |
There's some little things built in tat many don't even realise.
For many years those with VAG key fob wouldn't know that if you double blip the open and hold it securely at the end of that second blip, then all the doors unlock, then the windows drop, plus the sunroof, if fitted, opens.
Close operation the opposite, double blip the close and hold, until all the above are shut.
Some Ford too, haven't tested others. |
It's been quite a normal feature for years on many makes, I recall it specifically on a 1989 Vauxhall Cavalier CD and a 1999 Volvo V70.
It doesn't normally need a second blip, in fact, just press and hold. Not sure about the sunroof, neither of ours has one, but it does not open or close the convertible hood on the Audi TT roadster.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| T Bar wrote: |
| Collectively there are more fatalities per inhabitant and per kilometer travelled in France |
Yes, that kind of stat would back up why my perception's different.
I lived in Kuwait at a time when the 40 highway was officially the most dangerous road in the world (or so I was told, don't know where the stat came from). Over 300 deaths/year on that road alone in a country with an approx population of 2.8m. Literally, one death every working day when most people worked 6 days and a total fatality rate of well over 100/million.
I see that the 2021 stats are the UK at 24, France at 45 and an EU average of 44/million. I can't help thinking that that UK stat isn't because we're all such great drivers, it's simply because the island is just too crowded to give any real opportunity to drive genuinely recklessly at fatal speeds.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Raceplate wrote: |
| I can't help thinking that that UK stat isn't because we're all such great drivers, it's simply because the island is just too crowded to give any real opportunity to drive genuinely recklessly at fatal speeds. |
Compared to France driving standards are a lot better.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| davidof wrote: |
| Raceplate wrote: |
| I can't help thinking that that UK stat isn't because we're all such great drivers, it's simply because the island is just too crowded to give any real opportunity to drive genuinely recklessly at fatal speeds. |
Compared to France driving standards are a lot better. |
Is your perception.
I'd still rather drive on a French autoroute than a British motorway.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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My personal perception are French drivers much more disciplined driving on a 2 lane motorway and maximising time in the slow lane - I like that their lane change procedure is quick an efficient and predictable. Some could do with speeding up in the fast lane.
Brits are mostly used to major motorways having 3 or more lanes and do like to get in the lane early way too far from they would like to overtake - we often see lines of moving cars in the middle lane for no apparent reason. In France you often see a long queue of British cars lined up in outside lane to take over a lorry while the inside lane is empty. This probably reduces everyone’s average speed for everyone involved and our cruise control probably reduces speed by 20kph. What happens next is you see frustrated idiots who try to undercut everyone taking the empty slow lane which then creates a dangerous situation and speeding up to stop them filling a non-existent gap in the overtaking lane.
Would love to see the statistics on number of motorway accidents as assume the numbers would be quite low for both countries. On the other hand I find the driving standards in valley roads dreadful and scary - too fast and unsafe overtaking.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Ozboy wrote: |
My personal perception are French drivers much more disciplined driving on a 2 lane motorway and maximising time in the slow lane - I like that their lane change procedure is quick an efficient and predictable. Some could do with speeding up in the fast lane.
Brits are mostly used to major motorways having 3 or more lanes and do like to get in the lane early way too far from they would like to overtake - we often see lines of moving cars in the middle lane for no apparent reason. In France you often see a long queue of British cars lined up in outside lane to take over a lorry while the inside lane is empty. This probably reduces everyone’s average speed for everyone involved and our cruise control probably reduces speed by 20kph. What happens next is you see frustrated idiots who try to undercut everyone taking the empty slow lane which then creates a dangerous situation and speeding up to stop them filling a non-existent gap in the overtaking lane. |
I think that's a pretty fair summary.
Of course Brits also like to queue - the person undertaking must be Johnny Foreigner
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There are less deaths per population in the UK because safety was designed in to the motorway network in particular, is is widely viewed as extremely well designed and safe. We seem hell bent on overriding that with “smart” motorways with variable speed limits and no hard shoulder. We are in danger of losing what was one of the worlds safest road systems, and migrating to the same standards as others with higher mortality rates. Nuts in my view.
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French drivers can be very aggressive on winding mountain roads. Sitting on the bumper. I always look for a sensible opportunity to signal right and slow for them to pass safely and usually get appreciative signal. I agree that on motorway their lane discipline is much better but distance judgement not. It cannot be good driving to pull in four car lengths in front of a driver doing 100 kph on an empty motorway and it happens frequently.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
to pull in four car lengths in front of a driver doing 100 kph on an empty motorway and it happens frequently.
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The speed of the other car isn’t as important as the relative speed between the two cars.
I suspect it’s got more to do with perception than real or potential danger. If, as others alluded to, that French drivers tend to pass “quickly”, meaning they pass with a bigger speed differential, than the front car will pull away rather quickly and the “4 car” gap will quickly expand to a 6 car gap, to a 10 car gap, etc. But UK drivers, who’re long condition to see the passing car “sit” in front of their front bumper for ages, can be reasonably annoyed, for a few seconds.
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Rough comparison with of course many confounding factors...
Over 2,900 road fatalities were recorded on French roads in 2021, up from around 2,500 deaths in 2020.
7 Dec 2022
Road deaths and serious injuries in the UK, in 2021. 1,608 people were killed (1,558 in Britain, 50 in Northern Ireland). 26,701 were seriously injured (25,892 in Britain, 809 in Northern Ireland).
France = same population, twice land area. Oops.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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You cannot look just at fatalities if you want the full picture.
I posited earlier that the only reason France has more fatalities is that the average speed of an accident is probably greater precisely because it is the same population in twice the land area. I'd probably also argue that the average age of a French car on the road is significantly greater than the average age of a car in the UK with the corresponding reduction in safety equipment. Therefore the % chance of dying in an accident is greater in France than the UK. But what about the chances of being in an accident in the first place?
These are the total road accidents numbers from the UN report for 2019 (last year available):
France 56,006 accidents with 3,237 deaths
UK 123,212 accidents with 1,808 deaths
Who are the worst drivers now???
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Raceplate wrote: |
You cannot look just at fatalities if you want the full picture.
I posited earlier that the only reason France has more fatalities is that the average speed of an accident is probably greater precisely because it is the same population in twice the land area. I'd probably also argue that the average age of a French car on the road is significantly greater than the average age of a car in the UK with the corresponding reduction in safety equipment. Therefore the % chance of dying in an accident is greater in France than the UK. But what about the chances of being in an accident in the first place?
These are the total road accidents numbers from the UN report for 2019 (last year available):
France 56,006 accidents with 3,237 deaths
UK 123,212 accidents with 1,808 deaths
Who are the worst drivers now??? |
You used twice the area as a reason for higher speed meaning more deaths but half the area means much denser cars thats bound to lead to more accidents, for those who actually drive in france the bonus is empty roads, you cant have an accident unless other cars are there to be hit, and far more importantly tin can be scrapped or repaired deaths are final.
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| pam w wrote: |
| French drivers can be very aggressive on winding mountain roads. Sitting on the bumper. I always look for a sensible opportunity to signal right and slow for them to pass safely and usually get appreciative signal. I agree that on motorway their lane discipline is much better but distance judgement not. It cannot be good driving to pull in four car lengths in front of a driver doing 100 kph on an empty motorway and it happens frequently. |
Yes, generally awful drivers - the accidents statistics support my point.
The problem with most snowheads is their perception is based on a once a year holiday pootle down the autoroute through some totally deserted parts of France where no-one lives. They are not comparing like with like.
Drive on urban highways in Paris, Lyon and Grenoble as I do and you'll experience real French driving. As you say tailgating is a major issue - apparently it is fear that the person behind will overtake them - some kind of virility thing for men. Lane discipline pffft, again try driving regularly on the heavily conjested autoroutes during commute times. Other issues are either not signalling or signalling the wrong way! They also have a penchant for driving on the left at times - never quite worked that one out. A lot of the vehicles are clapped out or have faults - maybe due to the 2 year mot cycle. A huge number of drivers have no license and / or no insurance - we're talking millions. A lot of drunk drivers. The Savoie Gendarmerie say 30% of drivers stopped in roadside controls are over the limit - but the Savoie / Jura are very bad. Speeding, not stopping at lights, not stopping at pedestrian crossings. Zig zagging through rail crossings with half barriers.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Raceplate wrote: |
| caughtanedge wrote: |
| I'll be returning to the UK tomorrow in my ordinary car, which has adaptive cruise control, which I use, but sometimes find slightly annoying because (of course) it slows down when there's a slower vehicle ahead, instead of getting on and overtaking, which is what I would do if driving 'manually'. |
All cruise controls are overridden, but not cancelled, by the accelerator pedal. So if you want to drive up somebody's ass to get them to move out of the way, you can. Adaptive cruise has a distance to the next car setting. So if you want to be a more aggressive driver, just shorten the distance. |
Why do you think I don't know how ACC works? Who mentioned driving up someone's ass?..
I think you've missed my point, so I'll try to explain again. I'm happily trundling along a quiet autoroute with ACC set at, say, 130km/h. Car in front is doing about the same speed. But he gradually slows down for no obvious reason. Because my ACC is handling speed, accelerator etc I don't notice in the way I would if I was driving manually. I notice I'm now doing 120, so I indicate and move out, so the ACC can overtake 'for me', a bit later than I would have done. Not a big deal, I was just pointing out that there are the odd niggles with these systems.
I've just driven across France (happily using ACC) and didn't once drive up anyone's ass. I did have a few French and Belgian bumper-sniffers behind me. For some reason today, generally big Audi's with faces like fireguards.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| robs1 wrote: |
| Raceplate wrote: |
You cannot look just at fatalities if you want the full picture.
I posited earlier that the only reason France has more fatalities is that the average speed of an accident is probably greater precisely because it is the same population in twice the land area. I'd probably also argue that the average age of a French car on the road is significantly greater than the average age of a car in the UK with the corresponding reduction in safety equipment. Therefore the % chance of dying in an accident is greater in France than the UK. But what about the chances of being in an accident in the first place?
These are the total road accidents numbers from the UN report for 2019 (last year available):
France 56,006 accidents with 3,237 deaths
UK 123,212 accidents with 1,808 deaths
Who are the worst drivers now??? |
You used twice the area as a reason for higher speed meaning more deaths but half the area means much denser cars thats bound to lead to more accidents, for those who actually drive in france the bonus is empty roads, you cant have an accident unless other cars are there to be hit, and far more importantly tin can be scrapped or repaired deaths are final. |
An interesting article from Australia where the fatality rate per population is similar to France which gives some answers.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-01-02/road-toll-2022-why-is-it-getting-worse-analysis/101821372
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Poster: A snowHead
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@abc, it’s nothing to do with perceived danger, merely the fact that they pull in so close that your cruise control brakes you. It’s unnecessary & aggravating.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Road fatality stats will depend on the drivers (the above article mentioned the five Fs, and alcohol is responsible for about a quarter in most of Europe), the cars (a lot of pre-2000 cars in poorer countries, with associated mechanical wear and not 5-star NCAP), and the quality of emergency medical care to attend quickly and stop someone dying within I think 30 days is the standard period. Road design also helps, as I realize every time a slip road on Portuguese roads throws me straight into other traffic with little warning to me or others.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
it’s nothing to do with perceived danger, merely the fact that they pull in so close that your cruise control brakes you. It’s unnecessary & aggravating.
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Exactly this. Except in my case (having been so unutterably stupid, as @Raceplate sees it , to have bought an older car without all the flash tech wizardry) I do the braking myself. It doesn't normally require braking, just foot off gas.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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It does. Comes out of gammons’ ears.
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You can also make steam by melting snowflakes...
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| Orange200 wrote: |
| It does. Comes out of gammons’ ears. |
Are you serious ? Whomsoever that was directed at.
Or are you a stanton clone, as you look to be heading that way.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Gordyjh wrote: |
| @abc, it’s nothing to do with perceived danger, merely the fact that they pull in so close that your cruise control brakes you. It’s unnecessary & aggravating. |
But should that bother anyone? Sure, it’s unnecessary and the algorithm probably could be improved to reduce that. But the cruise control would resume once the gap open up to acceptable distance?
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@abc, it’s impolite, unnecessary and annoying. It’s also potentially dangerous because braking can cause the person behind you to brake. This leads to a ripple effect bringing traffic to a halt several hundred yards back & can cause accidents. How often do you drive on a motorway & have to brake sharply with no apparent reason for the hold up? It happens quite often on the M25.
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FAQ
