 Poster: A snowHead
|
| Quote: |
So what have the ESF in Megeve done wrong here?
|
Not "wrong" but they were a party in in the legal case against SBS so stand a lot to gain by his teams removal from Megeve. I find it quite cynical that after SB's case they then come on a charm offensive to London and I just wanted to raise awareness of the situation so SH's have a clear picture before deciding whether or not to use their services.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
TTT
| Quote: |
I suspect this grandfather exemption whether he didn't apply or was not given goes back to employing staff deemed under qualified.
|
I think you are probably right on that but I find it disturbing that a member has their rights withdrawn without any cause and only after the fact state "an admin error". If a formal disciplinary process would have been followed and BASI had given him clear reasons for his MoU being withdrawn with some notice and the right to appeal to the Board and Members Ombudsman I would feel a lot better but being drummed out feels very wrong to me. Not fair to say he is costing members money, BASI has a lot to answer for here imv.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
"Business sees opportunity to shut down law-breaking competitor?"
Don't think Tesco would think twice about doing that to a Safeway employing illegal immigrants for less than minimum wage...
If SB knows the ESF personally and they've stabbed him in the back after spending weeks drinking together etc then that's another, personal, matter but the nonsense that gets reported in the press and leads to demonstrations at the ski show is not about his après ski habits!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
Read a page on Facebook tonight which implied that Simon Butler had been kicked out of BASI by having his Licence revoked at their AGM. If this is true, and Mr Butler wins his legal case, where would that leave BASI?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
From twitter:
The Ski Trade @TheSkiTrade 3h3 hours ago
Just announced Simon Butler's BASI licence revoked at GM at Ski Show meeting
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Now that's blackballing.
What's the full story? And make it better than a cryptic "they must have taken legal advice so trust those of us that know it's all fine".
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
Just announced Simon Butler's BASI licence revoked at GM at Ski Show meeting
|
Seems rather draconian and unnecessary.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Blimey. I'm critical of SB's alleged behaviour in France but I wouldn't have wished that on him.
Presumably BASI will have to do better than 'an administrative error' for this one.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
It is true. The acting CEO came up to Simon two minutes before meeting was due to start and told him his licence was revoked.
The meeting was apparently unable to take place with Simon in the room so a discussion was held.
His licence was agreed to be revoked by the board by his employment of L2 and L3 illegally (according to BASI) thus endangering those employees to legal processes.
The board has acted as judge and jury preceding any further legal decisions in France and any higher European court. I'm not sure they should do this.
BASI cannot support any member in action for working rights in France and do not recognise and qualification Europe wide other than ISTD due to the signing away of rights in the bargaining to receive 22 Eurotest passes at Garmisch. This document was signed by the chairman AL who has now been appointed CEO. The only members he has looked after has been ISTD's.
One member then had the rather good idea of allowing the meeting to continue but with no voting rights for Simon.
This happened and further discussion was held at the open forum.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Someone has spoken to the ESF demonstrators at the Ski Show:
| Quote: |
Organiser Danny Brennan told us that ‘It’s not fair that there’s bullying going on. The public needs to be made aware of the facts.’
We asked Brennan if he was working for anyone, but he described himself as simply ‘a regular skier’ who has had ‘friends who have been arrested.’
Brennan told us that he designed and paid for the flyers, posters and tshirts that he and his colleague were wearing himself. ‘It didn’t cost very much,’ he said. |
More here: http://www.skipedia.co.uk/2014/11/im-like-a-modern-day-batman-says-anti-esf-campaigner/
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
That is just part of the story.
SB and his team were convicted by a French judge not basi. SB has not followed the basi guidelines. The legal advice to basi is that the French are correct. It would be strange if SBS licence was not at least suspended for convictions related to ski instruction until otherwise proven.
Skiing is a regulated profession in France as it is some other EU countries. BASI can not set French regulations just as the ESF can not dictate who works in the UK.
France just have to recognise those with equivalent qualifications under EU rules which includes the derogation. SB and his convicted team do not have equivalent qualifications to the French. SB does have an equivalent qualifications to some members who have the carte pro who were given a discretionary exemption to the EU rules including the basi secretary who submitted the required documentation which SB did not. SB does not have an equivalent qualification to the French and he has legal convictions related to ski instruction so has no right to instruct in France under EU rules.
The Garmisch speed test was not run by basi.
AL signed the agreement on behalf of basi not himself.
SBs so called supporters have ignored the rules which have led to him being convicted and losing his licence. They are the sort of so called friends in life you can do with out. This is not what I wanted for SB. SB should get some proper independent advice.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| TTT wrote: |
That is just part of the story.
SB and his team were convicted by a French judge not basi.
SBs so called supporters have ignored the rules which have led to him being convicted and losing his licence. They are the sort of so called friends in life you can do with out. This is not what I wanted for SB. SB should get some proper independent advice. |
Hmm all a bit personal without being very revealing. Can we take it you are some sort of BASI insider and therefore your interpretation of "proper legal advice" is that which advises him he doesn't have a leg to stand on in actions against BASI or in French appeals?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Everyone I have spoken to has been very discreet, not broken any confidence and our discussions have only been in terms of general principles. I did not know know exactly what was going to happen and when. I believe it was only decided yesterday. I was skiing so have no personal knowledge. But I was not surprised as it seemed on the cards as I previously indicated. It only came to me when I recently renewed my CRB and joined the dots.
His previous advice has led to convictions and losing his licence. Does not sound like very good advice to me. I don't think he has a leg to stand on. In his position I would get independent advice. I suspect his best route is to accept the conviction and penalties and negotiate his licence back by agreeing to comply with the rules. Some times in life you have to play the game to win. Basi do want to negotiate further rights but SB route is proving counter productive.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
@TTT, So AL signed an agreement for BASI which benefitted only certain members to the detriment of others? I thought BASI was run for all members or as George Orwell said "All animals are equal but some are more equal than others"
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
It did not detriment others as they had no rights. Basi does not have the power to set the law in France or EU rules, it can only lobby as one of numerous parties.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| TTT wrote: |
| It did not detriment others as they had no rights. Basi does not have the power to set the law in France or EU rules, it can only lobby as one of numerous parties. |
So why did they not lobby for non L4 BASI as well, after all they can legally work in many countries. Or are you saying BASI can't or will not fight for ALL it's members?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Again skiing is regulated in France and basi does not have the power to set regulations in France or EU law. They are lobbying for all members. I believe that is why they took SBs licence away as this will facilitate the negotiation process.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
@TTT, have you seen the agreement that was signed?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
@Dunk, yes
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
@TTT, At whose request would they take Simons licence away?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
You have seen the agreement, so you know that the French agreed to "sign off" 22 BASI members from the Garmisch test in exchange for BASI NOT recognising any qualification other than ISTD at an European level.
How is that benefitting ALL members?
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Sun 2-11-14 18:51; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| TTT wrote: |
| Again skiing is regulated in France and basi does not have the power to set regulations in France or EU law. They are lobbying for all members. I believe that is why they took SBs licence away as this will facilitate the negotiation process. |
But prior to this case why have they not been fighting for the rights of L2 and L3 members?
They do not need the Power to set regulations in the EU, only to fight to the best of their ability for all members. The EU have the power to set regulations and then force the French to accept the agreed regulations.
The one thing I like about the ESF is they will fight and keep fighting for the rights of their members maybe BASI could learn something from them. Don't sell themselves short and concede only when the EU tell you that you have to.
If they had fought harder in the beginning then maybe the problems SB is facing would not have occurred. The ESF have no right under EU to be the only ones allowed to have training schools it is anti mutual recognition.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Basi could fight for ISTD recognition as this was covered by the EU rules. The position of L2s and L3s isn't as there is no such qualification in France or Italy for it to be equivalent to. Basi has raised this with the EU but EU stated not on table at moment until MoU finalised.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
To be honest I don't know what all the fuss is about. SB is just one anomaly and there are only about a 150 L3s with an internationally recognised qualification and they can find work in Austria or Switzerland. It is these people with an internationally recognised serious qualification whose rights should be extended to work for schools in France so they can train for their L4. However as they can find work elsewhere it is not a problem in practice.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well I'm one of those 150 odd L3s with that qualification and I'm somewhat miffed by your comment above @TTT. If that's the prevailing attitude at HQ then no wonder we have a problem...
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
@juliad, I'm not sure what your problem is with basi wanting to extend the rights of L3s to work in Fr or that I support it?
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| TTT wrote: |
| To be honest I don't know what all the fuss is about. SB is just one anomaly and there are only about a 150 L3s with an internationally recognised qualification and they can find work in Austria or Switzerland. It is these people with an internationally recognised serious qualification whose rights should be extended to work for schools in France so they can train for their L4. However as they can find work elsewhere it is not a problem in practice. |
As Poles can find work in Germany and Austria and France it's not a problem if the UK executes rules to ban them from working.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| TTT wrote: |
| Basi could fight for ISTD recognition as this was covered by the EU rules. The position of L2s and L3s isn't as there is no such qualification in France or Italy for it to be equivalent to. Basi has raised this with the EU but EU stated not on table at moment until MoU finalised. |
They may not have a more structured qualification system but a L2 has more teaching experience than a first season ESF seasonaire in the first few weeks month or even first season in some cases. So there is a point to fight if BASI have the spine to do so. If not then maybe best they collect next years subs from the ESF.
You support every member and potential member ( ie those who have signed up for a BASI L1 course ). You have a duty to demonstrate that support to the members.
You point out inadequacy in the ESF system ( good example being snowboarding ) to the EU and that maybe the French system needs to adapt as well to fall in line with other EU nations and other respected instructor bodies world wide because skiing is not a European preserve it is a world wide body made up of many parts that for safety would be better served by a global adoption of ideas and rules.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
Notice how I turn some of the ESF points round and use them against them ! How do they fight the points they say are so important ie safety without weakening their own raising of these points?
A 4 tier qualification system could be used to ensure customers get most suitable instructor for their needs as it could become an EU requirement to do so under safety rulings. So no giving the only available instructor to a group they are not competent to take.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Careful @Kenny, the BASI website has "terms and conditions" that claim to prohibit linking to things other than the homepage without prior written permission. I'd link to them, but, well, you know... 
(Ok, I may have read the small print on the BASI website too carefully while following another thread, but seriously, who has Ts&Cs like that on a website any more?)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
@Kenny,
Kenny hence my "in some cases"
Someone who has been a level 2 for a number of years may well have more teaching experience than a new stagiaire. Yet even if they had 100 days or more teaching experience they are deemed not upto the job of teaching beginners and low intermediates by the ESF.
This is why the EU directive allows for experience to be considered but for level 2 it is not.
The stagiaire has 20 days so maybe as low as 80hrs but lets say 2x3hrs perday so 120 hrs a BASI L2 has to do 35hrs shadowing but you forget they did 35hrs at L1 as well plus any instructing between the two courses over and above the 35hrs to be submitted prior to the start of L2 training.
So a newly qualified L2 will not be that different in teaching experience than a new stagiaire but may well have a few hundred hours.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| speed098 wrote: |
@Kenny,
Kenny hence my "in some cases"
Someone who has been a level 2 for a number of years may well have more teaching experience than a new stagiaire. Yet even if they had 100 days or more teaching experience they are deemed not upto the job of teaching beginners and low intermediates by the ESF.
|
Ah OK, I read
| speed098 wrote: |
| but a L2 has more teaching experience than a first season ESF seasonaire |
In some cases I accept that because a BASI 1 or 2 may have done some teaching elsewhere they may have more experience. Unless a stagiere has transferred from another system they will have 20 days max. On the other hand there are GAP year courses in which you can get your BASI L2 in France and they can't have done any teaching so they have less. Only fair to point this out. When people talk about ESF trainees being allowed to teach they have actually reached a certain standard broadly equivalent to a BASI L2.
According to http://www.basi.org.uk/content/employment-france.aspx BASI L2 and L3 are accepted by the ESF 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
@skimottaret, further to previous on L3 mountain safety if you check the basi website it is as I recalled because as while you are correct that the course is within the boundaries of a ski resort, if you look at the L3 qualification it only covers off-piste on marked routes. I've only ever done ski routes with level 3 and only after they have been checked out by level 4 with EMS so makes sense as level 3 course is limited.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| mtsuit wrote: |
Careful @Kenny, the BASI website has "terms and conditions" that claim to prohibit linking to things other than the homepage without prior written permission. I'd link to them, but, well, you know...
(Ok, I may have read the small print on the BASI website too carefully while following another thread, but seriously, who has Ts&Cs like that on a website any more?) |
Thanks mtsuit. This website https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=97VXVKLhAcSV8Qfv2ICACg&gws_rd=ssl#q=BASI+L2+requirements provided the direct links. I wonder if Google had to get written permission?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
From my experience (of having had a decent amount of lessons from both) I'd view BASI L2/3 as at least as good a teaching qualification as ESF, if not better.
The ESF view of what constitutes a ski instructor seems to be an exceptional skier who happens to 'instruct' (though instruct is a strong word, 'guide and insult' would be more accurate). All about the skiing ability, not necessarily having any particular competence in the all important 'Instuctor' part, which is actually what they're being paid to do (nothing to do with language - the one's I had spoke perfectly decent English).
You could argue that BASI L2/3 are the other way round, but that is the way it should be! I want my ski instructor to be an exceptional instructor, who only needs to ski well enough to demonstrate anything they are teaching (which obviously varies depending on the level of the client, conditions etc. no need to be Ted Ligety in order to demonstrate a snowplough)
With this in mind, the eurotest is ridiculous and nothing to do with being a ski instructor. Its like telling Jose Mourinho he can't coach anymore because he can't outrun all his players.
If there is to be an EU wide harmonisation of standards, I would suspect/hope that common sense would prevail, with more emphasis placed on teaching ability. I'd suspect some of the ESF instructors I've had/seen would not meet teaching standards agreed elsewhere.
Is there an argument that the French system might age discriminate? Whilst a (say) 65 year old might be an excellent instructor under BASI, they might (apologies and correct me if i'm wrong) struggle to pass the French skiing standards, irrelevant to their ability to instruct the vast majority of clients.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@fullenglish, That is a vey English perspective if I may say. Eurotest may be considered exceptional by English standards but is not considered exceptional by local standards, just a good skier.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| TTT wrote: |
| @fullenglish, That is a vey English perspective if I may say. Eurotest may be considered exceptional by English standards but is not considered exceptional by local standards, just a good skier. |
On the whole, I agree. However, I would like to see an age handicap system introduced in addition to the existing sex handicap. I'm 41 this week, and although I've been skiing most of my life and did a little racing as a student, I doubt I could get up to Eurotest standards anymore and so the best I could ever expect to become is a Level 3.
Or am I wrong about how difficult the ET is?
As it stands, it COULD be argued that it's an ageist barrier to entry, and while it does mean it discourages gappies and part-timers from devaluing the profession it also prevents the likes of myself, who might otherwise consider it as a career change.
However, that's a completely different topic to the one at hand, so let's not drift TOO much
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Only with the addition of Test Technique; L2 or L3 is not good enough.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
... Well, I give up on this thread