 Poster: A snowHead
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Hurtle, Indeedy, but taking the France situation and turning it on its head, if you were about to be operated on by a surgeon in the UK who came from some other country, not particularly renowned worldwide for its surgery, might you not want some assurances as to the qualifications & ability of that surgeon??
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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OFFPISTESKIING
Sorry that was my fault, took my eye off the ball and the youngsters got out to play.
Back to the topic now.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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OFFPISTESKIING
You responded to HURTLE too quickly for me. With regard to the surgeon however your concern about the qualification an ability is covered by exactly the same legislation that allows BASI ski instructors to work in France, ie, Mutual recognition of professional qualifications. So in a sense you have brouh us back to the topic
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| offpisteskiing wrote: |
| Hurtle, Indeedy, but taking the France situation and turning it on its head, if you were about to be operated on by a surgeon in the UK who came from some other country, not particularly renowned worldwide for its surgery, might you not want some assurances as to the qualifications & ability of that surgeon?? |
Of course. But it is the definition of "assurances" and "qualifications", and the purpose of the "ability" which are at issue here.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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JJC & JJC James
Quite a lot of interest about me here, sorry if it takes a lot of space but I have been asked questions so I am giving the answers. Oh well here goes.
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Have you been through BASI or another system? And are you working in or out of Europe? You suggest the ET will have no bearing on you in the future but did it in the past?
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BASI. By through the system do you mean how far through? Working only in Europe this year. What I actually wrote was “no vested interest in any changes that may occur to the Eurotest” which means that if it does change it won’t affect me one bit.
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I am surprised by this. From post one I have seen a clear message that you are anti ET. I would be interested to hear a well rounded conclusion from you as you suggested we should do and have.
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I have checked all of my posts very carefully. I have never written that I was anti Eurotest the nearest was when I suggested to one postee that re-align might be a better term than lowered. I have revealed factual information (ISIA minutes) and legal documents which have allowed readers to form their own opinion. I have suggested that if people were unhappy with the Eurotest they should get in touch with BASI - a point echoed by JJC James. I have pointed out that the reasons given by the French for the Eurotest were not valid, but that does not mean that I do not think that valid reasons do not exist. While I could have stab at a well rounded conclusion there are others who have been on this thread longer and may be better placed to present a position point in order that we can then move forward, hopefully to the stage where we can pass our thoughts on to BASI. If some feel that the thread can go no further or that they cannot add to the thread then they can of course withdraw.
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But you have picked up a full set by spotting the main reason for the Eurotest - money
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It appears to me that you have not acknowledged any of the many good points both myself and James have made throughout this debate. Is this the lawyer within ?
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Just to clarify, the “Eurotest – money” quote was part of a post to STOATSBROTHER who was of the opinion that money (he used the term income) was a factor in the Eurotest and it had occurred after I had expressedmy opinions at the request of JJC James. I did not start the money thing nor did STOATSBROTHER, it was first mentioned on page 6 by JJC. Apart from awarding STOATSBROTHER 3 coconuts I haven’t really told anyone that their points were particularily good (even though they have been) except SLIKEDGES for his fence thing and JJC James when I noted that he was ‘on the ball’ . I am a ski instructor not a lawyer.
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I would like to see a system where the instructor services the industry rather than the industry serving the instructor.
Explain your point further. I have suggested in numerous posts that this is what we should be doing, with my reasons. By lowering the standard of teacher how are we better providing the industry?
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I have never suggested that you did not say the things that you claim you have said and I don’t know how you managed to link my opinions to “lowering the standard of teacher”.
Can we recall that I was specifically asked for my opinions by JJC James and I have given them. Not many other people would have been as open as I was and you should note that most of those opinions were my life opinions which I have applied to my ski career.
If one thinks about nurses and schoolteachers; O.K. they get paid, but not that much for what they have to do. Generally speaking they do the job because they think that there is a need for them to do that job, ie. the patient or the kids will benefit. In other words they are happy to service the ‘industry’. Unlike, for example, investment bankers who think that your money and my money which is in the bank is there to service their needs, ie, earn them a BIG fat bonus.
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There are a lot of very good teachers who are unable to add quality to the system
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O.K. the above quote was one of my opinions from the post, unfortunately you did not include the rest of it which was; "because of the time it takes to snap your fingers", in other words they can be 0.3 of a second too slow.
That quote and all of my post referred to the Eurotest, as did the ‘de-tune’ quote below. Unfortunately you seem to have transposed my quote(s) in to a BASI qualifications frame of reference so I can’t really respond if you have taken my opinion out of the context in which it was made.
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JJC this is one of your statements
All those that have reached getting their ISTD have had to pass all the teaching modules also the ET does not help you in any way shape or form unless you can teach.
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Does that mean that you can be a ‘good’ teacher without the Eurotest? You are, in fact, agreeing with my opinion.
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how much you can ‘de-tune’ the racer we should set the standard based on how much you need to ‘uptune’ or upskill the ski instructor for the job as a ski instructor.
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I stand by this opinion, we should base the standard for the race test on what a ski instructor needs to do his job as an instructor, Remember BASI has a coaching scheme which is specifically intended to provide race coaches with the skills that are required to coach racing. One wouldn’t be far off the BASI page if one said that BASI’s opinion is ‘Instructors teach skiers, coaches train racers’.
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When did you last go on a course? How many races were on it? Every tech course I have been on I have spent the entire time de tuning my skiing and learning how to demo appropriately to my client. It has not been a walk in the park. Ask any racer! One of our Olympians returned from the Olympics and was threatened with failing his level 2 on tech reasons! You say they are trying to up skill the ski instructor to be a ski instructor but these candidates are not yet ski instructors! This is wrong they are on a course/assessment to see if they are at the level to do the job. They are not already at the level and nobody from Ted Ligety to someone who aspires to be an instructor after skiing for a few years should be arrogant enough to assume they are at the level. Racers tend do better on tech courses but that is because they are highly skilled and have spent their whole life’s getting to that stage that they can perform in a variety of ways. We can all keep improving in all aspects of the sport.
We are also challenged on the way we teach and have to work hard to achieve a level suitibal for clients. If we dont we wont pass, this has happened to a national team member at level 2 stage in recent times. As i said its not a walk in the park.
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Again you seem to have transposed my quote(s) in to a BASI qualifications frame of reference so I can’t really respond if you have taken my opinion out of the context in which it was made.
I will try to answer some of your questions, but some of the things which you claim I wrote I did not write, viz, “You say they are trying to up skill the ski instructor to be a ski instructor” I did not write that, check my opinion again. I’m sorry to say that I got completely lost with the bit that I have put in italics.
Last course - Is that a BASI course or a race camp? 5 months and 4 months. Last BASI course that had racers was 18 months ago - 2 racers.
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Eurotest is relevant to only 10%
So you agree the ET is relevant? Or are you suggesting we should just not cater for that 10%? I believe it’s a much higher % read the threads based on carving etc it’s littered by people who could benefit.
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Again this is a quote from the post to STOATSBROTHER. I have never written that the Eurotest was not relevant. As far as catering for the 10%, see my response above about the BASI Coaching Scheme.
You don’t need to pass the Eurotest to teach someone how to ‘carve’, STEWART WOODWARD & SKIMOTTARET probably do it every week.
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Currently the system is controlled by those who have a vested interest.
JJC this is your statement
I think we need to respect the good work that has been done on behalf of the BASI members. We could and would be in a much worse position if it wasnt for the fantastic work they do. These guys have spent a lifetime in snowsports and are well placed to continue with progression and ensuring a high quality standard of instruction across the world. I am sure they would open to hearing your views on a age % etc.
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Do you mean the Board of Directors? I’m not sure that they will be too happy about the “have spent a lifetime” bit it sounds as if they are near the end of their life and the last time I saw them they looked pretty sprightly. And you are right they have done a good job and will hopefully get even better with a new Chairman & CEO. Might not be able to pass on views about age % as I don't have any.
Remember this is about the Eurotest.
This is the dictionary definition of vested interest: - vest·ed in·ter·est n
1. a right to the present or future possession of property
2. a person’s particular concern in maintaining or promoting an issue or situation for reasons of private gain
3. an individual or group with a vested interest in maintaining or promoting something (often plural)
Encarta® World English Dictionary © 1999 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Developed for Microsoft by Bloomsbury Publishing Plc.
As far as the Eurotest is concerned the first definition is not relevant, but it the 2nd and 3rd are.
It means that: anyone or group who makes a private gain due to the existence of the Eurotest should not be entitled to make a decision about the Eurotest whether it be alteration or abandonment. Exanples; People who offer their services as fitness training, or psychological training or technical training for the Eurotest. Basically if someone gets paid for a service which can be shown is related to a Eurotest or which they claim is related to the Eurotest then they have a vested interest.
Technically they should declare that vested interest and withdraw from voting, lobbying and expressing an opinion related to the Eurotest. If they don’t withdraw they can be excluded and 'in extremis' expelled from the body whether it be a Council, a Corporation or an Association. If you think about it I am sure you will know some people who are in this situation.
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| Bindingcheck wrote: |
Remember this is about the Eurotest.
This is the dictionary definition of vested interest: - vest·ed in·ter·est n
1. a right to the present or future possession of property
2. a person’s particular concern in maintaining or promoting an issue or situation for reasons of private gain
3. an individual or group with a vested interest in maintaining or promoting something (often plural)
Encarta® World English Dictionary © 1999 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Developed for Microsoft by Bloomsbury Publishing Plc.
As far as the Eurotest is concerned the first definition is not relevant, but it the 2nd and 3rd are.
It means that: anyone or group who makes a private gain due to the existence of the Eurotest should not be entitled to make a decision about the Eurotest whether it be alteration or abandonment. Exanples; People who offer their services as fitness training, or psychological training or technical training for the Eurotest. Basically if someone gets paid for a service which can be shown is related to a Eurotest or which they claim is related to the Eurotest then they have a vested interest.
Technically they should declare that vested interest and withdraw from voting, lobbying and expressing an opinion related to the Eurotest. If they don’t withdraw they can be excluded and 'in extremis' expelled from the body whether it be a Council, a Corporation or an Association. If you think about it I am sure you will know some people who are in this situation. |
Article 38 from BASI'S Articles of Association
38. A Director shall not vote at a meeting of Directors or a committee of Directors on any resolution
concerning a matter in which he has, directly or indirectly, an interest of any nature whatsoever. Such a
Director shall not be counted in the quorum present at a meeting in relation to a resolution on which he
is not entitled to vote,and the Director concerned should declare his interest and leave the meeting for that part of the proceedings.
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SKISON - Good to have you another interested voice. Correct me if I am wrong but you seem to be saying that it is the ability to teach people to ski which matters rather than the ability to ski very fast through gates on a closed piste? You also seem to echo the following point that JJC made:
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All those that have reached getting their ISTD have had to pass all the teaching modules also the ET does not help you in any way shape or form unless you can teach.
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It does look from the comments throughout the thread that a large number of people agree with you that passing the Eurotest does not add to the quality of an instructors teaching.
You also seem to be of the opinion that most people that you know who have passed the Eurotest have then written it of as a tick box experience and moved on ( after they have sold their very expensive kit on eBay of course) presumably they also share the sentiments which JJC expressed above.
ROGA is currently working as a Level 2 in Scotland. I am confident that most of his clients think that he is a wonderful instructor. If he had passed or been exempted from the Eurotest would they think that he was anymore wonderful?
Interesting that you think the Eurotest is needed though, should we assume that you think it is the ‘pass mark’ which is too high?
KEVINDONKLEYWOOD
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After all who wants to be taught by someone who cant hit the 18%?
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The answer to that question is almost everyone who goes to ski schools in the UK and 95 / 98% of skiers world wide. If that wasn’t the case then there would be only 3 or 4 people on this thread would get any clients at all, the two JJC’s being self declared examples.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Bindingcheck, Just to confirm that
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After all who wants to be taught by someone who cant hit the 18%?
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Was heavily laden with sarcasm (sorry the winking smiley should have followed) and like you go on to explain:
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The answer to that question is almost everyone who goes to ski schools in the UK and 95 / 98% of skiers world wide. |
I agree but the %ages are probabally higher.
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| Bindingcheck wrote: |
SKISON - Good to have you another interested voice. Correct me if I am wrong but you seem to be saying that it is the ability to teach people to ski which matters rather than the ability to ski very fast through gates on a closed piste? You also seem to echo the following point that JJC made:
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All those that have reached getting their ISTD have had to pass all the teaching modules also the ET does not help you in any way shape or form unless you can teach.
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It does look from the comments throughout the thread that a large number of people agree with you that passing the Eurotest does not add to the quality of an instructors teaching.
You also seem to be of the opinion that most people that you know who have passed the Eurotest have then written it of as a tick box experience and moved on ( after they have sold their very expensive kit on eBay of course) presumably they also share the sentiments which JJC expressed above. |
Yes, that is my opinion and experience. Think about it. An instructor can do all the modules required for BASI L4 and then do the ET. What does passing the ET change when they have already passed tech and teach? Considering the instructor has been assessed and passed on every module required by BASI what has been gained in terms of being a ski teacher at the highest level within BASI?
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Interesting that you think the Eurotest is needed though, should we assume that you think it is the ‘pass mark’ which is too high? |
I wasn't thinking in terms of the pass mark. It is a useful element of further training for those who wish to work at certain level i.e coaching high end athletes OR in the case of France, if you want to work there then do the ET. What if you dont want to work there though?
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| The answer to that question is almost everyone who goes to ski schools in the UK and 95 / 98% of skiers world wide. If that wasn’t the case then there would be only 3 or 4 people on this thread would get any clients at all, the two JJC’s being self declared examples. |
I would put it higher and say virtually no clients need an instructor with an ET pass. If they want to race then there are many routes open to getting started from grass roots all the way through to pushing for national team places.
The BASI system is about training and awarding qualifications to snowsports teachers. If you want to gain specific additional modules to meet the demands of an employer (such as a French snow school) then do them and fulfill the requirements. For the majority it has no place and I have not seen or heard a convincing arguement say or prove otherwise. |
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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KEVINDONKLEYWOOD
My apologies, I don't understand all of these smiley things.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Bindingcheck, No appologies needed; its a very good debate
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also the ET does not help you in any way shape or form unless you can teach.
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Think this is taken out of context as many things are on here. The way is see it to be a well rounded instructor and capable of doing the job most ski schools require you need the ISTD and the ET is a part of that. It includes teaching, skiing understanding, safety etc just chatting to those that work here in morzine they all say the ET pushed them to better themselves and therefore improve the product they provide.
To be a good teacher is simply not a good enough reason to not have to be a good skier. There is a lot of competition, i'm in morzine at the moment opening an ET and the level of the instructing and skiing is very high (higher than where i work). The way it should be. If your not ticking all the boxes its simply not good enough. There is a guy coming along behind you that will, or is willing to put in the time to better himself/herself until they do tick the boxes.
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You know it makes sense.
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Being able to ski a GS course at speed is proof that an instructor can maintain good technique in poor conditions, that seems to me to be a reasonable expectation of somebody with the highest level qualifications.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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rjs, good point 
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Poster: A snowHead
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offpisteskiing, off topic and i bit my tongue but a take a wee bit of exception to your comments re the locals only... because someone takes several years to retrain as a ski teacher does that make his career change later in life "a lifestyle choice" If i wanted a lifestyle choice i wouldnt have spend 3 years on basi exams and teaching kids in a freezer for £7 an hour week in week out, i would have gone and done a season as a ski bum. Would you be just as upset for the locals in a valley if the place was full of ski bums instead of an occasional foreign teacher in "their" valley
If a middle age banker retrains as a maths teacher and takes a young graduates job opportunity away is that any different and so terrible. the older person brings a lot of life experience to the job and giving something back as a teacher is usually warmly welcomed.
Sorry but there are what 200 ish brit ISTD's and something like 15,000 esf guys working in the valleys of France. i dont see how a few trained and skilled migrant workers in a ski valley is ruining the local economies. if anything they attract more brit ski tourists who take lessons and add to the local economy, not forcing locals out of their homes...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rjs, you train all the time for GS as well as being a coach and must know how difficult the ET standard is. do you feel 158 FIS points is a fair level for the highest level of qualification?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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skimottaret, Watching the standard that passed today in morzine i can say that yes, the highest level has an appropriate technical level due to the Eurotest!
Only thing i'd change is the age allowance.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| rjs wrote: |
| Being able to ski a GS course at speed is proof that an instructor can maintain good technique in poor conditions, that seems to me to be a reasonable expectation of somebody with the highest level qualifications. |
Equally they could be randomly assaulted by midgets with watercannons and bombed with snowballs by specially trained choughs while conducting a demostration. And you could charge admission for it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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jjc james, what was the pass rate for brits and others? stewart asked a good question a while back, do you remember your times and could you work out what the ISIA pass time would have been?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I can't remember all the times, some but not the calibrated ones which are the important ones and would need the other openers times to. Have been setting a lot of the times (3 of 4 today) but they rub them out after the first run and was a fair walk up to the timing board so didn't even look at some. You can ask BASI for them if you like just ring the office or email.
But its a weird test as the conditions are getting so soft so early in the day here. Maybe not a good one to try and compare with the isia. I'd say ADH in jan was a much more straight forward test.
So far around 30 - 35 ish passing a day out of about 85 per day, so far 1 brit out of about 5 or 6 have got it. 2 were within a second though, 1 guy missed it by .06
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Woops was reading some pm's on training opportunities in the summer and this autumn and posted from the wrong account.
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| jjc wrote: |
| Have been setting a lot of the times (3 of 4 today) |
Do you think you have been skiing better than your calibration or are the other openers skiing worse than theirs?
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| But its a weird test as the conditions are getting so soft so early in the day here. Maybe not a good one to try and compare with the isia. I'd say ADH in jan was a much more straight forward test. |
Surley the race conditions shouldn't make a differance  If it was an ISIA test the conditions would be the same
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hard to say, i think i am skiing the same. Haven't skied gates in between here and ADH where they sent more than me. Am often only setting the times by a few tenths so not really a case for skiing faster than calibration as we are mostly in the same half a second after times are calibrated.
Just saying its very soft at the moment as has been a bad season and morzine is only at 900m. Thats not exactly normal conditions.
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JJC JAMES
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also the ET does not help you in any way shape or form unless you can teach.
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Think this is taken out of context as many things are on here.
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The quote was most definitely not taken out of context. The quote was used in the context of the Eurotest. My rebuttal was in the context of the Eurotest. It may not have read in retrospect the way that JJC has now decided that he wanted it to read but it was absolutely not taken out of context. Read the posts that follow it, those postees did not think that it had been taken out of context.
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The way is see it to be a well rounded instructor and capable of doing the job most ski schools require you need the ISTD and the ET is a part of that.
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If you use a phrase like "most ski schools" you will need to quantify the sort of numbers (either British or worldwide) that you are talking about. KEVINDONKLEYWOOD & SKISON make the point that in their opinion more than 95/98% of skiers do not need a ski instructor who has passed the Eurotest presumably that is based on their experience within ski schools.
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It includes teaching, skiing understanding, safety etc just chatting to those that work here in morzine they all say the ET pushed them to better themselves and therefore improve the product they provide.
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Most readers will agree about teaching, skill understanding and safety but you don't get those from passing the Eurotest, Not everyone who is working in Morzine has passed the Eurotest.
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To be a good teacher is simply not a good enough reason to not have to be a good skier.
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Remembering that this is a thread about the Eurotest. We presume that your definition of a "good skier" is someone who has passed the Eurotest. Does that mean that it is impossible to become a "good skier" without passing the Eurotest? And do they automatically become a "good teacher" the day after they pass the Eurotest?
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If your not ticking all the boxes its simply not good enough. There is a guy coming along behind you that will, or is willing to put in the time to better himself/herself until they do tick the boxes.
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The job is "as a ski instructor" so are we talking about ski instructor boxes or the Eurozone speed test boxes. Not sure who it is that views it as being "not good enough". Several other postees agree with SKISON:
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I would put it higher and say virtually no clients need an instructor with an ET pass.
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but it would be interesting to have a 'poll' of readers to find out how many instructors have been told at the end of the lesson(s) by their clients - "I would have preferred / wish that you had passed the Eurotest". Anyone?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| jjc wrote: |
So far around 30 - 35 ish passing a day out of about 85 per day, so far 1 brit out of about 5 or 6 have got it. 2 were within a second though, 1 guy missed it by .06 |
Tuesday 37 passes
Wednesday 24 passes
Thursday 20 passes
Friday 28 passes
So if 85 enteries per day = 109 passes out of 340 enteries = 32% pretty high but unfourtunatly only 1 brit.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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RJS & JJC James
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Being able to ski a GS course at speed is proof that an instructor can maintain good technique in poor conditions, that seems to me to be a reasonable expectation of somebody with the highest level qualifications.
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One would have thought that in poor conditions a professional ski instructor would have followed the advise of the FIS Rules of Conduct, specifically rule 2:
"Control of speed and skiing or snowboarding
A skier or snowboarder must move in control. He must adapt his speed and manner of skiing or snowboarding to his personal ability and to the prevailing conditions of terrain, snow and weather as well as to the density of traffic.
I have attached a link to the FIS website in order that you can download the Rules and study them at your leisure.
http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/insidefis/fisgeneralrules/10fisrules.html
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After all who wants to be taught by someone who cant hit the 18%?
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So nobody wants to be taught by a woman
Here in the Espace Killy we also have a number of BASI snowboard instuctors who have not passed the ET or it's equivelant. Are they safe?
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You know it makes sense.
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Do you guys really not realise how weird this argument would look to most of your punters?
Should driving instructors be able to lap Brands Hatch within 5% of a BTCC driver's time?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Which part of it is weird? Or is all of it weird?
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Poster: A snowHead
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JJC James
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I'd say ADH in jan was a much more straight forward test.
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ADH ? Attention Deficit Hyper ..... ?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
Do you guys really not realise how weird this argument would look to most of your punters?
Should driving instructors be able to lap Brands Hatch within 5% of a BTCC driver's time? |
I think you've just created a new racing class 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The whole ET thing.
I'd be interested in what proportion of UAIGM guides would make it. Or whether there was any link at all between getting the ET and success as a teacher.
I really do appreciate the achievement but it is transparently an artificial barrier of limited relevance to most instruction.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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stoatsbrother, I've skied with instructors that have passed the ET (staatliche) and those that have not... all I can say is those staatliche were excellent ski instructors! Very good understanding of skiing and ability to ski anything and demo whatever they want... With no other reason or information to select an instructor I'd select one over another instructor without the same qualification.
I've also made a habit of selecting only ISIA or above instructors to teach friends if I want them to learn to ski. I had one physio student I took who could only afford group lessons - she loved the instructor who was less qualified - thought he was ok - UNTIL I took my ISIA level instructor down to give her some hints... and she then declared she would never again take a group lesson with an unspecified level of instructor. The first lessons are most important - in reality if we want to grow the industry we should have the higher level instructors teach them.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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little tiger, but what about vs PSIA or CSIA high level instructors?
And does this approach hold up off-piste?
Given your sig. line and what I understand of your approach, and love of gates, I can see it makes great sense for you. But it is a huge distance from what most people taking lessons are aiming for. I'd argue that empathy, ability to analyse accurately and feedback well, and to adjust teaching style to different pupils are way more important.
But my post was really just an expression of puzzlement - and I ought to let you pros get on with it.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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stoatsbrother, I am not that impressed by PSIA 3(ISIA) instructors... and the PSIA 2s are dreadful in general - some folks are better but the standard needed to pass is not great and inconsistent... a CSIA 4 is often excellent although I've had a couple of dodgy ones(one spent the whole time discussing what colour she should paint her house  ). The exceptions are more the person than the standard they were qualified at though.
I made a point of often selecting either ex-racers or race coaches with Disabled cert as well for a reason. The race guys generally were much more analytical - so able to work out what was happening and how to find a way to teach me what I needed.
CSIA 4 has a race component, APSI 4 has a race component. PSIA 3 has none except in Rocky mountains and that is a Gold NASTAR only - I think it should be a platinum minimum probably single digit would be better.
Australia has now moved to a 4 level system... APSI 3(was 2) is ISIA and would be the minimum I'd want to teach my friends and family how to ski... that equates to a PSIA 3 or a CSIA 3... For myself I'd never ski with less than a 4 and mostly now only an examiner or race coach or racer...
The Eurotest may be a slightly high standard - I cannot comment on that - but I will say that having a race component ensures the candidate can ski at whatever level is set and is impartial and readily measured.
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This has been a really good thread up until now - but a strong element of sarcasm has crept in today that threatens to undermine it - so keep to the point please guys.
I've had many points to make during this discussion, but they've mostly been made before I got my finger out to contribute, so I'll pass on most of that.
Age adjustment
On thing that wasn't picked up on though is the logical implication of
| beanie1 wrote: |
Dave Renouf commented on the age issue below:
"With regard to the ageist question this is something that we put to the EU commission a few years back and the reply was that for education there is no concession as the standards for a teacher of any sort should be the same whatever the age, despite there being a difference for gender. However on that point their opinion is that taking into account the difference in strength from male to female is within the understanding that the end result of capacity to teach is no different." |
So they are quite happy to recognise that a difference in strength between two populations (male and female) requires a difference in pass mark, and that that does not affect the capacity to teach. So by that same logic, they must allow for a difference in pass mark for differences in strength between two other populations (sub-30s and over-40s). There seems to be general agreement on this thread that an age-adjustment should be implemented. What is needed is for the powers-that-be to recognise the logic of their own stance. If that logic is rejected, then they have to set the pass mark equal for men and women.
What should be the degree of the age-adjustment? jjc had some interesting figures from the world of running - so that's a start. It would be interesting though to look at the variation in performance of particular individuals. jjc has cited the 45yo opener several times. I assume he'd been racing for years, so he probably has a record of FIS points and/or ET calibration values over say the last 20 years. There must be many on the Masters circuit who have been doing it for as long (or longer), so should have a good historical record of how performance has changed. (OK, contra-arguments could include technology changes, changes in course setting for Masters races vs mainstream FIS, maybe differences in lifestyle between full-time FIS racing and Masters competition, but I'm sure they could be catered for). But even if a perfect analysis is not possible, the inability to obtain "the best" should not prevent implementation of "the better". Whatever the adjustment, it shouldn't be a single threshold - say starting with a small allowance at 35 or 40 and increasing progressively after that. Any objection as to complexity of calculation is easily addressed: in 5 mins someone could knock up an app to do all the calculations on the smartphone the French opener has glued to his ear while cruising down their closing run  (probably tied into a GPS telling him whether to speed up or slow down from gate to gate as well  )
Revalidation
I'd agree that IF the test is really about safety (and I don't for one minute think that it is) then it should be necessary to revalidate - say at least every 5 years. If you can't hack it, then you're out and time to find another career. The absurdity of that logic, though, shows this up to be the spurious argument it is.
Utility of the test
While the cynics always look at the ET as a purely protectionist measure, the justification for the ET, as has been mentioned by rob@rar amongst others, is that it's the one, sole, objective test in the qualification progression - the clock doesn't lie. But, it's value is not in producing high quality racers for the race circuit; rather, as has been mentioned by jjc and rjs, it requires you to be technically accurate in your movements when under pressure. In most of the comments about how useful it is when addressing a client's needs this point has been completely misunderstood. There is a world of difference between skiing fast through a course where it is vitally important to make the turns where and when the course requires it, and to take your own line. It is not the winning that is important (which is what it would be if it were to turn out racers), it is the skiing accurately and consistently no matter what. Achieving that level of control, understanding how it can be achieved and demonstrating it IS important (IMHO) in a top level instructor.
Comments have been made about how a GS course is not relevant to the vast majority of clients. Maybe not, but the techniques required to negotiate it at speed ARE exactly those required for high quality piste performance. As there's a lot more involved in modern skiing than just flat pistes, though, how about changing it to a timed Skiercross run - so you'll get bumps and jumps involved as well! However, I'd imaging the age-related problems would be even more severe in that. But maybe instead they should just be taken to the top of Bec des Rosses and told to get down in a particular time? (Not a serious suggestion)
Objective calibration, and consistency of openers.
As the point of the test is to get an objective measure, it seems a bit off to be having openers told to slow down - for whatever reason. From what I'm seeing here it's normal for there to be three or four calibrated openers, right? Taking the fastest (after correction) is a virtual guarantee of inconsistency. An average of the two fastest is an improvement, but not much. I would suggest instead taking all the openers' corrected times, excluding the top and bottom and then averaging the remainder (as in the treatment of judges marks in judged Olympic competitions). This is a standard procedure for improving the robustness of statistics. FIS does something similar in calculating race penalties (although still doesn't quite try hard enough to reduce the effect of outliers). A miscalibrated opener (whether because they'd been ill at the calibration event, or just started skiing better) would then be excluded from the calculation (provided there was only one in each direction) and the test would be fairer. To minimise further miscalibration, the openers' calibrations could be adjusted based on some weighting of their original calibration and that that would have been appropriate to this particular test - something akin to the way FIS points are recalculated. (I don't know whether that adjustment allows points to go up as well as down - the system SSE uses for its races isn't really fit for purpose on this one).
ET vs ISTD Tech
I was hearing a few weeks ago of a couple of instructors who recently passed BASI ISTD Tech, having passed the ET a few years ago. Having passed the ET they then failed the Tech. It took a lot of hard training to get that Tech pass. I heard from some French instructors (1st and 2nd hand) that they reckoned the ISTD Tech was way harder than the ET, and really too hard to be a requirement of an instructor qualification. Interesting eh? Maybe it's the different perspective when ISTD is the top of our tree, whereas its equivalent BEES1 is just the bottom of the French one. Probably another thread, but what extra does the BEES2 and BEES3 require of you as an instructor?
Having seen a few ET training sessions (although my experience is far from extensive) I would agree that the ET is probably not far off the standard required for 20-somethings to demonstrate high quality skiing. I do think it has a place, but it does discriminate against older candidates.
Interesting seeing those ET pass rates. It would be even more interesting to see numbers of passes and fails broken down by a) age and b) nationality/region, and a historical record thereof.
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| GrahamN wrote: |
Objective calibration, and consistency of openers.
As the point of the test is to get an objective measure, it seems a bit off to be having openers told to slow down - for whatever reason. From what I'm seeing here it's normal for there to be three or four calibrated openers, right? Taking the fastest (after correction) is a virtual guarantee of inconsistency. An average of the two fastest is an improvement, but not much. I would suggest instead taking all the openers' corrected times, excluding the top and bottom and then averaging the remainder (as in the treatment of judges marks in judged Olympic competitions). This is a standard procedure for improving the robustness of statistics. FIS does something similar in calculating race penalties (although still doesn't quite try hard enough to reduce the effect of outliers). A miscalibrated opener (whether because they'd been ill at the calibration event, or just started skiing better) would then be excluded from the calculation (provided there was only one in each direction) and the test would be fairer. To minimise further miscalibration, the openers' calibrations could be adjusted based on some weighting of their original calibration and that that would have been appropriate to this particular test - something akin to the way FIS points are recalculated. (I don't know whether that adjustment allows points to go up as well as down - the system SSE uses for its races isn't really fit for purpose on this one).
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Would be much better than fastest
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Bindingcheck, So far all of the important nations back the ET. So every nation that does, sees anyone that cannot achieve it as not good enough, very simple.
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And do they automatically become a "good teacher" the day after they pass the Eurotest?
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Do believe there was a teach exam last time i checked.
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Most readers will agree about teaching, skill understanding and safety but you don't get those from passing the Eurotest, Not everyone who is working in Morzine has passed the Eurotest.
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Just by training for the ET you need to train with someone with a greater understanding than your own, if you don't learn from this person then that is a big mistake. How well you are taught relates to how well you will teach.
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but it would be interesting to have a 'poll' of readers to find out how many instructors have been told at the end of the lesson(s) by their clients - "I would have preferred / wish that you had passed the Eurotest". Anyone?
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Would be interesting to have people have alternate lessons with ISIA's and ISTD's and see what they say then.
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Oh and what is an IVSI License?
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FAQ
and im certianally not someone that should be teaching driving.
