 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Spyderman, smells like victory. Some day this thread's gonna end.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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But it is not this day, this day we fight!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Well, as I go to work in a plane and then a chopper, I wouldn't be first in the queue to go heli skiing. Choppers are far too cramped and noisy for me to spend my leisure time in. But I don’t want heli skiing banned. If people want to be airlifted to the top of a mountain, then that's their choice. As has been previously mentioned, they can be a nuisance due to the noise, which must certainly cause disruption in a relatively compact area like the Alps. Out in the middle of Alaska they are the only practical way to get around, along with float planes.
On the Brazilian side of Iguacú Falls they used to provide sightseeing chopper flights over the falls, but the Argies wanted them banned due to the noise pollution (or maybe they were just jealous). It definitely spoilt the spectacle though, to have a helicopter buzzing around every fifteen minutes.
But do they do much environmental damage? In the overall scheme of things I doubt it.
As for Man Made Global Warming, read Michael Crichton’s book State Of Fear. Although it's a work of fiction all the references in the book are real. It provides quite a good balance between the two sides of the argument. Unfortunately MMGW has become so emotional for some people that they ignore what little factual data there really is, and just push their opinions and fears, as can be seen from the insults here.
Of course technically, we are actually in an Ice Age, albeit in an interglacial stage; the Holocene epoch.
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| Quote: |
I assume in Valdez a lot of people depend on heliskiing so put up with any noise issues.
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"Noise"? What noise?
Valdez is dead as a doorknob even in "high season", which is summer!!!
I can only imagine what it's like in the winter. I suspect they almost WANT the noise just so they know the world hadn't left them for dead 6 months!
"Depend on heli skiing"???
People of Valdez had a great deal better livelihood than many of you here! It's the Alaska (oil) pipeline terminal!!!
(you'll be absolutely shocked to know how much they make, as I was)
Google it so you'll know it's a bad example. And you'll also know how much "a lot of people" there are in Valdez!!! (and how many of them whose livelihood does NOT depend on heli-skiing vs. those who does)
Not that I know anything about the life of people living in the Alps. Nor about heli-skiing (never did, no plan to). But at least I don't make statements on things I don't know.
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Skier from Argentina, obviously heli-skiing is a drop in the atmosphere. What concerns me, and why I started this thread, is that our public broadcasting service used heli uplift for both stories in a show called High Altitude. We know that this show is loosely based on another called Top Gear, which glorifies high-powered cars. I thought the promotion of heli-skiing by the BBC was gratuitous - the last straw - completely unacceptable - evidence that its acceptance had reached an organisation which otherwise enlightens the world to the threat of greenhouse gases and climate change.
Skiing has to fight climate change, unless it's just about the present generation splurging the last hoorah.
Ever since helicopters were capable of climbing to the kinds of altitudes involved in skiing from high summits we've known that they can offer the 'ultimate skiing experience'. They are also symbolic of the most decadent pollution and environmental impact, with no gain in the wider public interest.
It's time to ban the activity under European law, and it would be great for skiers to 'own up' and initiate the campaign.
I'm thinking of writing to some Members of the European Parliament on this. Would anyone care to join me?
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David Goldsmith, face it, the earth hasn't warmed for ten years, and has cooled quite significantly in the last couple. I don't remember any of the high priests of global warming predicting that, so they're not as clever as you think.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| abc wrote: |
| Not that I know anything about the life of people living in the Alps. Nor about heli-skiing (never did, no plan to). But at least I don't make statements on things I don't know. |
Calm down boy. I was just saying that if Valdez wants to put up with helicopters buzzing around that's up to them.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
Ever since helicopters were capable of climbing to the kinds of altitudes involved in skiing from high summits we've known that they can offer the 'ultimate skiing experience'. They are also symbolic of the most decadent pollution and environmental impact, with no gain in the wider public interest.
It's time to ban the activity under European law, and it would be great for skiers to 'own up' and initiate the campaign.
I'm thinking of writing to some Members of the European Parliament on this. Would anyone care to join me? |
DG... Don't forget to add in there you want the banning of all luxury large engined cars. Bentleys offer no gain in the wider public interest but I don't hear you crying for thier abolition and you can bet your life that the cumulative CO2 output from all the Bentleys in the world is far far greater than that of helis. Before you try to take a minority interest away from the minority just because you don't like it, take a long hard look at your lifestyle and ask yourself if you are being the best person you can for the environment. If there is even the slightest doubt that you are then you have absolutely no right to be here (in this thread) and even less right to start threads with comments like "Heli-Skiing should be banned right now!" it's impact is very small in the grand scheme of things.
As has been said before, High Altitude is aimed at the general public, not just skiers, it doesn't promote anything, it tries to give as much bang in 30 mins as possible to attract as many viewers as possible, fat stan and his wife aren't interested in skiing, probably not interested in mountains either but they are interested in watching adventurous people doing adventurous things in an extreme a way as possible, skinning up a mountain doesn't really fit that description.
If you find the idea of heli-skiing abhorant (sp?) that's absolutely fine, we are all entitled to our opinion but please do not attack the BBC, it's programming or presenters for doing thier job (rather well..... imho.) If the program was obviously designed to appeal purely to skiers and was aimed at giving an insight into the current state of the sport then I think you would have a valid point but in reality if the series was a new concept and hadn't been spawned from Ski Sunday then I doubt very much the objection would have ever entered your mind. The title doesn't include the words skiing or snow sports anywhere and looking at the trailers from future episodes, we have ice climbing, getting stuck in a snow hole and othe extreme audience pulling exciting activities to look forward to. If it's the case that you just don't like the show, thats great..... don't watch it!
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Wed 4-02-09 10:19; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| .........and why I started this thread, is that our public broadcasting service used heli uplift for both stories in a show called High Altitude..... |
And there was me thinking it was because you were envious of successful ski journalists getting out on the slopes. I am sorry, I completely misjudged you.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I thought they were making a mockery of journalism, unless one takes a ludicrous interpretation of its function.
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Did they claim to be providing journalism?
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You know it makes sense.
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I wonder what the CO2 output is of an episode of Eastenders, compared to an episode of High Altitude.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| laundryman wrote: |
| Did they claim to be providing journalism? |
Not at all.... the opening sequence goes something like.... "We are unashamed thrill seekers, it's all about the next perilous adventure, the next challenge and the mountains are the ultimate test!"
Now... I think what we've seen so far fits with that description perfectly!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| paulio wrote: |
| I wonder what the CO2 output is of an episode of Eastenders, compared to an episode of High Altitude. |
probably no where near as much but hey, lets look at Formula 1 shall we, or the Red Bull air race, or the world rally championships, or the paris dakar...... Come on people, shall we go back to singing round the piano and candle light?!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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David Goldsmith, of course heli skiing has little impact in the context of the 'big picture' of climate change and depletion of natural resources, but I believe it is more to do with the way we think and approach life that is the problem and heli skiing is one small part of that. I remember watching TV and seeing an advert telling me that I should switch it off standby, but what difference will that make to the 'big picture' (no pun intended  ) ? nothing at all but if 30 million house holds do the same thing it may make a difference. Likewise just one heli ride a year is not going to bring the world crashing to its knees, but multiply that by 1 million skiers, then add that sentiment to jet skiing x 10 million, scuba diving with mini powered propellers x 100,000, 4 x 4 cars x 50 million etc etc and it all makes a collective difference; it is easy as a skier to dismiss this as one heli skiing trip and it does not make a difference (which is true), but it maybe just one trip for the individual but it is a massive number of individual incremental 'trips', be it heli skiing or something else, in all walks of life that is the problem. We need to start taking a collective responsibility on a day to day basis and whilst a heli ski trip would be fun, there are other ways of searching out powder to enjoy yourself and not make that incremental contribution to climate change or using up the limited natural resources. One skier does not make a mogul 
btw I do not turn my TV off standby, do not always recycle my rubbish and would probably take a heli-board trip, but in my heart I know I should change my ways in the hope that my small contribution would be mirrored and multiplied by hundreds of millions ............ except snowheads who will still take that heli-ski trip
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| laundryman wrote: |
| Did they claim to be providing journalism? |
Well, they claimed to dispense some sort of insight into avalanche rescue. A supermodel was 'buried' in snow, with a video camera trained on her face. The mouth of the snowhole was then filled, except that it wasn't. A gap remained, letting in enough daylight to illuminate her.
After the team had trampled all around this snow tomb, they waited a few yards away. A Zermatt mountain rescuer and avalanche dog were let loose on the scene, with no attempt to simulate an avalanche zone (very large, usually large lumps of snow, very difficult to negotiate).
Within seconds, the dog had found the supermodel. Perhaps her breath had been seeping out of the yawning gap at the end of the hole?
This was p!ss-take journalism.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Wed 4-02-09 10:34; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Vipa wrote: |
| paulio wrote: |
| I wonder what the CO2 output is of an episode of Eastenders, compared to an episode of High Altitude. |
probably no where near as much but hey, lets look at Formula 1 shall we, or the Red Bull air race, or the world rally championships, or the paris dakar...... Come on people, shall we go back to singing round the piano and candle light?! |
I would really like to see the numbers. I actually have a sneaking suspicion that filming a soap might use more due to the lighting requirements, and the vast numbers of cast and crew all getting to work.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I guess we should also stop making actions films too. James Bond? Not very green at all. Death Race? Good grief man, what are you thinking?
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DG's right about the avalanche bit, it was very poor.
The fact that they then caused one, mere feet away from themselves, kind of proved something too, but I'm not sure what.
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| rayscoops wrote: |
David Goldsmith, of course heli skiing has little impact in the context of the 'big picture' of climate change and depletion of natural resources, but I believe it is more to do with the way we think and approach life that is the problem and heli skiing is one small part of that. I remember watching TV and seeing an advert telling me that I should switch it off standby, but what difference will that make to the 'big picture' (no pun intended ) ? nothing at all but if 30 million house holds do the same thing it may make a difference. Likewise just one heli ride a year is not going to bring the world crashing to its knees, but multiply that by 1 million skiers, then add that sentiment to jet skiing x 10 million, scuba diving with mini powered propellers x 100,000, 4 x 4 cars x 50 million etc etc and it all makes a collective difference; it is easy as a skier to dismiss this as one heli skiing trip and it does not make a difference (which is true), but it maybe just one trip for the individual but it is a massive number of individual incremental 'trips', be it heli skiing or something else, in all walks of life that is the problem. We need to start taking a collective responsibility on a day to day basis and whilst a heli ski trip would be fun, there are other ways of searching out powder to enjoy yourself and not make that incremental contribution to climate change or using up the limited natural resources. One skier does not make a mogul
btw I do not turn my TV off standby, do not always recycle my rubbish and would probably take a heli-board trip, but in my heart I know I should change my ways in the hope that my small contribution would be mirrored and multiplied by hundreds of millions ............ except snowheads who will still take that heli-ski trip |
Ray.... I feel you have a very valid point here.... BUT...... the difference is that if everyone who had a tv switched it off instead of leaving it on standby then that would equal billions of tvs being switched off because there are billions of people with tv sets around the world therefore a huge impact would be seen. If heli-skiing was banned only a handfull, maybe a few thousand heli drops would be stopped because very very few skiier heli-ski therefore the positive impact on CO2 emissions etc would be insignificant. I agree with you that if we all make small changes then the cumulative effect would be huge but in the case of heli-skiing that simply isn't the case as there are relatively so few heli-ski flights to start with...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| paulio wrote: |
| Vipa wrote: |
| paulio wrote: |
| I wonder what the CO2 output is of an episode of Eastenders, compared to an episode of High Altitude. |
probably no where near as much but hey, lets look at Formula 1 shall we, or the Red Bull air race, or the world rally championships, or the paris dakar...... Come on people, shall we go back to singing round the piano and candle light?! |
I would really like to see the numbers. I actually have a sneaking suspicion that filming a soap might use more due to the lighting requirements, and the vast numbers of cast and crew all getting to work. |
Fair comment, took your post the wrong way... 
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How many ways can my wonderment be interpreted?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| laundryman wrote: |
| Did they claim to be providing journalism? |
Well, they claimed to dispense some sort of insight into avalanche rescue. A supermodel was 'buried' in snow, with a video camera trained on her face. The mouth of the snowhole was then filled, except that it wasn't. A gap remained, letting in enough daylight to illuminate her.
After the team had trampled all around this snow tomb, they waited a few yards away. A Zermatt mountain rescuer and avalanche dog were let loose on the scene, with no attempt to simulate an avalanche zone (very large, usually large lumps of snow, very difficult to negotiate).
Within seconds, the dog had found the supermodel. Perhaps her breath had been seeping out of the yawning gap at the end of the hole?
This was p!ss-take journalism. |
It was not wee wee take journalism when filming was held up for 2 hours because of a real avalanche... and the same team of men and dogs pulled the 3 people out unharmed.
I watched the programme on iPlayer last night, for the first time. It was superb tv.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| laundryman wrote: |
| Did they claim to be providing journalism? |
Well, they claimed to dispense some sort of insight into avalanche rescue. A supermodel was 'buried' in snow, with a video camera trained on her face. The mouth of the snowhole was then filled, except that it wasn't. A gap remained, letting in enough daylight to illuminate her.
After the team had trampled all around this snow tomb, they waited a few yards away. A Zermatt mountain rescuer and avalanche dog were let loose on the scene, with no attempt to simulate an avalanche zone (very large, usually large lumps of snow, very difficult to negotiate).
Within seconds, the dog had found the supermodel. Perhaps her breath had been seeping out of the yawning gap at the end of the hole?
This was p!ss-take journalism. |
No it wasn't....... it wasn't aimed to appeal to you David, or any of us skiers or boarders who have an incling of what could happen in a real avalanche situation, or avalanche experts. It was designed to appeal to fat stan and his wife elsie who have never seen an avalanche or considered what one is all about. For the target demographic the sequence was probably scary enough to get the hair on the back of thier necks standing up. Showing it in any more reality would have been gratuitous and quite probably would have caused people to switch off not tune in for next weeks show. You are looking at this program through the wrong glasses my friend.
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Vipa, yes, you are correct that there aren't that many heli-ski trips compared to the TV, but (and I agree completely with rascoops here) at some point you need to decide where your responsibility lies. It's unlikely that you can do everything but you certainly can do something. What I have said on here time and time again is that in the skiing context heli-skiing is, for me, a step too far. For others, it is not. I do see DGs argument with the BBC as well, but for me it's not quite as important as making informed decisions on your actions.
Small differences do have an impact if enacted on a global scale. I think I'm done with this thread, now. It's interesting to see how even when one thinks something is pretty universal that quite a few people will take an opposing view. Maybe that's why so many TVs are left on standby, because they just are.
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You know it makes sense.
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cockofthenorth,
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Haven't we forgot how do more than half the population make it over to the alps - Fly by planes which don't run on fresh air!!
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this is going off the beaten track a bit here but in the town where I live we have a local train service. Whenever a train is coming through the barriers close for a good five minutes each time and what happens as a result?...on both sides of the barriers you have a queue of cars running idly because they can't get through. I bet the Government conveniently doesn't factor that into the carbon footprint of a train trip. Just imagine on a journey from Manchester to London how many crossings there must be and how many hundreds of cars have to run idly just to let one train through? (and yes, before the DG's and JH's of this site jump down my throat, I do switch off my engine when needed).
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Wed 4-02-09 10:57; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| johnnyh wrote: |
| ........Small differences do have an impact if enacted on a global scale. I think I'm done with this thread, now. It's interesting to see how even when one thinks something is pretty universal that quite a few people will take an opposing view. Maybe that's why so many TVs are left on standby, because they just are. |
Or maybe people having opposing views makes for democracy and a healthy society.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I do think it's highly amusing that DG and Jh spout on about the environment and yet have had their PC's running for hours just for this one thread! At least the rest of us are honest enough to admit that we all have our guilty pleasures!
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 4-02-09 11:10; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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HH, I don't feel the slightest bit guilty about using computers or skiing - after considerable thought.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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So long as you have given it considerable thought 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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HH, I have found an archive picture of DG using his computer... without affecting the environment.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Vipa wrote: |
| you can bet your life that the cumulative CO2 output from all the Bentleys in the world is far far greater than that of helis. |
This claim I very much doubt. Bentley cars total output these days is around 10,000 cars per year. Until recently (2002), it was as low as 1000 cars/year. The company started early, but did not produce one single full car before 1936 despite cars with its engine and chassis being known before (Le Mans victories).
There were, in 2001, approximately 26,500 civilian helicopters and 30,000 military helicopters in the world.
This is greatly more than the number of Bentley cars and since every single one of these choppers pollutes more than any of the cars we would drive, I think your argument fails.
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Vipa,
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the difference is that if everyone who had a tv switched it off instead of leaving it on standby then that would equal billions of tvs being switched off because there are billions of people with tv sets around the world therefore a huge impact would be seen. If heli-skiing was banned only a handfull, maybe a few thousand heli drops would be stopped because very very few skiier heli-ski therefore the positive impact on CO2 emissions etc would be insignificant. I agree with you that if we all make small changes then the cumulative effect would be huge but in the case of heli-skiing that simply isn't the case as there are relatively so few heli-ski flights to start with...
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Exactly. And I do believe that we should indeed all think about making the small changes where we can and where, because of their proven cumulative effect, they matter. (More difficult, though, where the jury remains out on what's proven and what isn't. I still can't decide whether recycling my rubbish according to the methods suggested by Wandsworth Council - I do, in fact - is of signficant benefit to the environment.)
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| Quote: |
DG's right about the avalanche bit, it was very poor.
The fact that they then caused one, mere feet away from themselves, kind of proved something too, but I'm not sure what.
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I didn't see they caused the nearby avalanche, just that it went off nearby (to the side). I also thought JK's skiing was not as bad as early posters said, once she got the hang of the snow - but why we need celebs I know not.
Overall, I thought the Zermatt part of the programme reasonable. The unnecessary traverse by line and pulley was a turn-off.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hurtle, I am of the same mind. I do our recycling every week and we even compost everything we can too.
But how efficient is it for my recycling cardboard to be transported separately from my wheelie bin waste and then stored in an enormous rented warehouse (for how long?), because no one wants to buy it? When it is sold, is it really very green for it to be shipped to the far east for processing?
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Vipa, but the point I was making is that heli sking is just one piece of an overall jigsaw, and I agree that one trip is just a drop in the ocean, but if you add the principle of a heli trip to all other such similar 'trips' such as driving to shops rather than a 5 minute walk as one example, then it may make a difference. It is the cumulative of the 'it is only one heli/shop/jetski etc’ trip that is the key and not each trip in isolation, especially when there are viable alternatives to reaching good powder, or getting to the shop, or enjoying water sports etc.
In other threads many have argued that the current credit crunch has been fuelled in part by consumers spending incrementally on their credit cards and the cumulative effect is to bring down the banking sector,; an individual purchase on a ski jacket did not do this in the same way an individual heli trip will not cause global warming (if it even exists), so it is not heli trips in isolation that is the issue, it is the sentiment that a heli-trips is acceptable, and for heli-trip read any other such non ski related extravagance whereby alternative means of enjoyment is available that does not involve an exaggerated impact on the environment or natural resources.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Wed 4-02-09 11:55; edited 1 time in total
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FAQ
