 Poster: A snowHead
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A while ago I read that the derogation was brought in with a date in the future to review it, after which it would be permanent if approved. I wonder how permanent that permanent is, and if the review date has passed yet - anyone know?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| TTT wrote: |
| The derogation is clear. Grandfather was just a short term exemption from the rules. I correctly anticipated he would be convicted under the EU rules but I fully accept I can't guarantee future decisions as you can't. |
But yet again you avoid answering the question. There are many instructors who are working legally in France who have not taken and would now not pass the TT or ET due to age, ill health, etc.
You say he has been convicted under EU rules yet he has only been in a French court and that does not ! mean he has been found guilty of breaching any EU rules, the EC will decide that not some provincial French court, just as no English court will do.
I am finding it harder and harder to take anything you say re this matter serious. You have been show clear evidence via links that differences must! be substantial that experience must! be taken into account and if refused full written reasons why made available plus many more points, but all you seem to do is hint at insider style info that means you have to remain confidential and not answer questions directly.
I stand by my statement that anyone so involved in this case they must remain confidential would only give their own opinion without any hint of such knowledge or remain quiet.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@speed098, likewise. They took the priot test which SB has not so he does not have an equivalent qualification required by EU rules. You ignore EU rules, the derogation, that SB was convicted and basi views so it is hard to take your views seriously. The EU rules are enacted in french law and therefore SB was convicted under EU rules.
I am not involved in the case and never stated I was.
All you have to do is read the EU rules as the judge and basi's lawyers have done as I have. It is difficult to take someone seriously who has clearly not read and understood the EU rules and thinks they know better than the judge and lawyers. The conviction merely confirmed my reading of EU rules. This is getting like arguing with the flat earth society though as people seem in complete denial of reality. If SB was qualified then why was he convicted and why has basi not given him his MoU. You may disagree with EU rules and the derogation but they exist.
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Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 5-12-16 14:53; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@TTT, As you're clearly such an expert can you explain in words of one syllable why SB didn't get his MoU when all his peers of similar vintage have?
As far as I can see there is only one person on this thread posting wilfully misleading versions of reality ( and that's just in the context of their own experience).
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SB does not have the prior test, ET or have grandfather rights as stated numerous times. I am not the one claiming to know better than the judge and basi so perhaps some people could explain why they think they know better than the judge and basi. SB has been convicted and basi has not given him his MoU so the onerous is not on me to prove that SB should have the carte pro. SB has been convicted and does not have the MoU. That is reality.
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@TTT,
So now are you saying he is not qualified? he was old Basi level 1 which became new level 4. He has been working in France for a long time yet you completely and totally ignore EU rulings when it suits you. Maybe you should read the parts re experience and ask yourself if after all those years working why the French are not taking that into account. you say it is getting like arguing with the flat earth society yet you sound like those who think they have no right to question anything.
And yet again you still ignore the question re his experience and the EU directive
" France may not consider that there is substantial difference between the migrants training and French training without first having verified whether the migrant can lay claim to professional experience, and whether that experience may wholly or partly compensate for this difference."
Now if you want I can easily rip apart the French claim re safety when compared to the other two sports something I am surprised has not been done because in both the other sports nobody can just go hire the gear and go do the sport yet in skiing's case they could not only go hire the gear and buy a lift pass but go to the hardest run ( if right next to cablecar/gondola ) push off and kill themselves without any check from any official. Now ok this is not directly related to instruction but if we are talking sports that are so dangerous then they should have checks like diving does for renting gear buying a dive package ie 10 dives etc and refills, for renting ski gear and for buying a lift pass.
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+ the Judge has sod all to do with why he's not got his MoU. Presumably prosecution said he hasn't got it and our French rules ( and remember these are only rules which the French interested parties claim as compatible with EU law NOT EU law itself) require it. Judge asks SB if he can produce it. He can't. Next issue.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Perhaps I misunderstand speed098 and others' points, but if the law says you must have a certificate then even if you're 100% entitled to that certificate you can't practice until you actually possess it. If I get asked for id here the police can charge me if it's at home or in the car because the law says I must carry it at all times. If SB thinks the French state has denied him his card unfairly then he should sue separately for that, but he shouldn't have been working without it.
Working somewhere for years and having experience is not a defence either, it's something he should have used to clear his situation before he was caught. Friends here have done it with their UK qualifications in other fields; it's something you do before you start work, not when you get arrested.
The other charges are employing unqualified instructors and not registering his staff with the French authorities. Is anyone questioning those charges? I suspect - based on nothing at all! - that the French may have let the instructing by SB himself slide if he hadn't pushed his luck here too.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Skibum82 wrote: |
| Does anybody know this BASS guy to ask? |
Yes David, it's a bad angle but I believe I do actually. I won't rise to such stirring and tell you his name, but I will tell you he used to instruct in red so the conversation might not be what you're expecting.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| TTT wrote: |
| They took the priot test which SB has not so he does not have an equivalent qualification required by EU rules |
You don't say who "they" refers to. But never mind, some people have passed exactly the same exams as SB (without the ET or prior test) at more or less the same time, and have not had their MoU withdrawn and have been issued a Carte Pro. I'll name examples with the same quals if you want me to.
| Quote: |
| All you have to do is read the EU rules as the judge and basi's lawyers have done as I have |
Can you explain why BASI lawyers are involved? BASI is not involved in any court case, as far as I understand.
| Quote: |
| If SB was qualified then why was he convicted and why has basi not given him his MoU. |
He is qualified - he has an ITSD. It is a very good question as to why SB had the MoU and now does not - unlike others with exactly the same qualifications taken in the same era, and also converted to ITSD. I am not aware that BASI has ever answered that, other than the vague excuse of some completely unexplained "administrative error".
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| Perhaps I misunderstand speed098 and others' points, but if the law says you must have a certificate then even if you're 100% entitled to that certificate you can't practice until you actually possess it. If I get asked for id here the police can charge me if it's at home or in the car because the law says I must carry it at all times. If SB thinks the French state has denied him his card unfairly then he should sue separately for that, but he shouldn't have been working without it. |
The EU directive says the immigrant worker must make a declaration (if required by the host country) which must be processed in a way prescribed by the directive and in a prescribed timescale. If that does not happen, the default position is that the declarant is entitled to work, whether the local authority has issued their papers or not.
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You know it makes sense.
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Selective reading - the EU derogation rules apply regardless of experience. In the UK I had to pass the exams to get my professional qualification, experience was not sufficient. The french rules are the same. Not liking the outcome is not a legal argument.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| TTT wrote: |
| I correctly anticipated he would be convicted under the EU rules |
Under the EU rules? Sorry but no. The matter hasn't gone to the European Court of Justice (ECJ). The case was heard in a French court according to French law. The EU law in this area is specified as a number of Directives which do not have vertical direct effect i.e. they don't apply of themselves to individuals or companies. Directives have effect by transposition into national law by the national legislature. Is such transposition sometimes found defective by the ECJ? Yes, frequently.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| laundryman wrote: |
The EU directive says the immigrant worker must make a declaration (if required by the host country) which must be processed in a way prescribed by the directive and in a prescribed timescale. If that does not happen, the default position is that the declarant is entitled to work, whether the local authority has issued their papers or not. |
But the directive doesn't apply here, because of the derogation, and the derogation says that a decision on the migrant's qualifications or experience must be made "as quickly as possible" with a view to when the migrant wishes to start work. Things do not happen quickly in France, this is a country where it can take two years to be issued a driving licence so it's all relative.
Of course that sort of wait is definitely unfair, so good luck to him if he wants to take France to the ECJ over its absurd bureaucracy.
Others will know better than me, but I believe the foreign instructor has to apply to the Minister of Sports for a carte pro - this clearly is not the same thing as declaring one's presence in the territory and awaiting confirmation, NI numbers etc as per the original directive.
So, for clarity, has SB applied to the Minister and is he;
A) awaiting the decision?
B) been approved but awaiting the card?
C) been denied?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| laundryman wrote: |
The EU directive says the immigrant worker must make a declaration (if required by the host country) which must be processed in a way prescribed by the directive and in a prescribed timescale. If that does not happen, the default position is that the declarant is entitled to work, whether the local authority has issued their papers or not. |
But the directive doesn't apply here, because of the derogation, and the derogation says that a decision on the migrant's qualifications or experience must be made "as quickly as possible" with a view to when the migrant wishes to start work. Things do not happen quickly in France, this is a country where it can take two years to be issued a driving licence so it's all relative.
Of course that sort of wait is definitely unfair, so good luck to him if he wants to take France to the ECJ over its absurd bureaucracy.
Others will know better than me, but I believe the foreign instructor has to apply to the Minister of Sports for a carte pro - this clearly is not the same thing as declaring one's presence in the territory and awaiting confirmation, NI numbers etc as per the original directive.
So, for clarity, has SB applied to the Minister and is he;
A) awaiting the decision?
B) been approved but awaiting the card?
C) been denied? |
Points A-C are good points that I have not seen clear answers to.
If The French want to take more time then that is their issue not SB's and they nwill have to answer to the EC as you say.
TTT
Selective reading ?
No it can only be interpreted one way experience DOES ! count the only question is in each individual case how much as again it CLEARLY states in whole or part.
You have yet to answer anything properly you give no actual links to points within the relevant system and waffle about in the UK you had to pass your exams to get your professional qualifications. Maybe you have not understood BASI instructors take exams and have to pass to become instructors! They are professionalsand they have a right to be respected as such. Experience of working as an instructor DOES count just as if two people went for a job in your line of work one fresh out of college/uni and one with 4-5 years experience. Guess who would be favoured if their interview skills were equal ?
TTT So the BASI Professional qualification PLUS experience DOES count. Jo blogs who somehow managed to help out at say a private slope with no qualifications but has 10 years does not as he has no professional qualifications to back up the experience.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@dogwatch, EU rules are enacted in country law and the french are following the EU rules. SB needs an equivalent qualification. SB has not got an equivalent qualification. There is a specific EU rule which allows the ET. SB by his own admission has not got the ET. You may not think EU rules are correct but the french and basi are following EU rules. SB has been convicted of not following the rules which everyone apart from SB has done.
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@speed098, yes it is selective reading because the directive refers to experience but the EU derogation specifically allows the french to require the ET regardless of experience. Sorry - I don't carry the directives around while skiing so can't quote. It does seem bizarre that some people ignore that he is not qualified in the eyes of the french or basi and don't seem to question that may actually be down to SB himself as he is the only one with a problem.
They would not get an interview if not qualified and are required to prove their qualification to get a job. The qualifications are tough and are proof of technical competence. French have the same attitude as other professions in the UK. You need to be qualified.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@albinomountainbadger, thanks yes that is a useful resource. I read everything from the EU website when I first heard about the case and did not previously know about SB, prior to all the press and UKIP stuff and thought he was guilty.
But I am not the one here claiming to know better than the judge or basi who have consulted lawyers and whose current acting CEO is a lawyer.
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I hope laundryman or someone else with SB's ear can answer my questions above as it would explain a lot.
As I see it:
-If he hasn't applied for the card then he's in breach of everything and has zero defence.
-If he has applied and is waiting for a decision or has been approved and is waiting for the card then he shouldn't be ski instructing but can perhaps pursue France for the unreasonable delays which breach the spirit of the derogation.
-If he has applied and has been rejected, then he shouldn't be ski instructing until he has successfully appealed that rejection. As the derogation *appears* to leave the decision of who can get a card entirely in the hands of the French authorities, and the ECJ makes decisions on points of law not on individual circumstances, I cannot see what interest the ECJ would have in this case.
Of course that still leaves the other two charges; employing unqualified instructors and not registering employees with the French authorities.
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@albinomountainbadger, agreed. To be fair to SB he has accepted that he can't currently work in France. Despite all the disagreement here and the subsequent UKIP stunt SB clearly does have a fanatical following and I do hope he has learnt from the experience and makes sure he follows the rules in CH so he can work there.
I do respect the EU rules, the french culture and system, and basi though as they facilitate me being able to ski regularly and get great instruction so I can enjoy skiing more. And ultimately enjoying the mountains is what matters in my view.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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A couple points to note here regarding Simon Butler..
There were many old Grade 1 instructors who were given ISTD's through grandfather rights, Simon was one of them. They needed to do the Euro Mountain Security course to obtain this but not the Eurotest nor the French Capa test which was the precursor to the ET.
There were around 20 eligible BASI members who did not exercise their grandfather rights at the time, SB being one of them. Depending on who you talk to it was either a case that the paperwork was sent to UK addresses and were received too late, some didn't bother with it as at the time the ISTD was viewed as a means to work in France and they were established elsewhere, the powers at the time left some off the list as their faces didn't fit, or some were refuzeniks who felt that they were already top certs and should by rights not have to do additional tests.
In the last year BASI got an agreement from the French that these 20 would be eligible for ISTD's and each was painstakingly tracked down and given the option to finalise their rights. Some had retired, but a few did take up their rights and were awarded ISTD's. Simon from what I understand did his Safety course after the original rights offer and eventually was granted an ISTD.
He along with all BASI ISTD's last season was given the MoU stamp which signifies full right of equivalence within the 11 nations that signed the MoU agreement including the UK and France.
Uniquely to Simon, BASI did not send him an MoU stamp this season when the licenses were sent out. From what I hear no reason was given other than his previous MoU stamp was an "administrative error". This lack of MoU was a key reason he was convicted as without it he was deemed unqualified.
Simon has stated that he has applied for his Carte Pro but never received a reply from the French authorities.
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@albinomountainbadger, yes (A).
@TTT, SB is qualified, he has passed exactly the same exams as many others who are practising unmolested in France who have the MOU stamp (not subsequently rescinded) and a Carte Pro.
There are two possibilities in principle:
(1) the MOU and Carte Pro have been denied according to published, objective criteria. If so, I haven't seen them, and I'd be grateful for them to be pointed out. This has nothing to do with the ET, because there are others without ET but with MOU and Carte Pro. It is nothing to do with what everybody else understands by grandfather rights, because he has an ITSD, which he could not have obtained without asserting those rights.
(2) the documents have denied according to some secret protocol or at a whim.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@laundryman, I agree that some people have been given exemption from the EU rules and SB hasn't. As noted previously and SB himself has stated I suspect this grandfather exemption whether he didn't apply or was not given goes back to employing staff deemed under qualified. Clearly they have not followed basi guidance and have even publicly admitted they have been taking clients off-piste so it is questionable whether they should be allowed to keep their licences to work anywhere.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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If BASI are responsible for sending the stamp and they haven't and the lack of said stamp us what makes Mr Butler an "illegal", then why isn't he suing BASI rather than argue with the French courts?
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@TTT, That's not the point don't change the subject.
Besides of course qualified instructors can take customers off piste in non glaciated terrain. They're not SCGB reps 
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You know it makes sense.
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Exactly Kruisler. Again, there must be some nuance I [we] don't get but the above all suggests to me that he should be suing BASI for maladministration, not criticising the French for imaginary breaches of EU law and wasting his money fighting court battles he'll never win.
If he needs this MoU but doesn't have it then it's obvious that the French will reject his application. I've been through skimottoret's resources and it clearly states that the Member State of Origin is responsible for this. It's not a French problem, it's not an EU one, it's a BASI one.
All this stuff about him being just as qualified as anyone else is irrelevant to the French if he doesn't have the paperwork from Britain proving it. Perhaps, he could have bypassed BASI and applied to the French directly under what is known here as a VAE, or 'validation of acquired experience' but it seems he hasn't.
| skimottaret wrote: |
| Simon has stated that he has applied for his Carte Pro but never received a reply from the French authorities. |
Does this mean he took their silence as agreement that he could go ahead?!
After 30 years living/working there I'm sure he's more than aware of how French bureaucracy works; you ask, you insist and then you scream.
Seems to me that he should pay all his fines and accept the result in France, sue BASI, and then appeal to the ECJ about France not treating his application for a card as required in the derogation.
Suppose that all sounds a bit less exciting to the Daily Telegraph though.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Dave of the Marmottes, I think it is pertinent as the French would like BASI to take their licenses though. ISTDS are licenced to go off Piste, level 3 on ski routes and 2s not at all.
SB is so unpopular with some people that I can see him being sacrificed which I'm not saying is right for further rights for level 3s/training centres. Ultimately all laws and rules are negotiated. Maybe if SB agrees not to use staff deemed underqualified he may at least be able to get his grandfather rights but I think he has annoyed so many people he has burnt his bridges.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| TTT wrote: |
| @dogwatch, EU rules are enacted in country law and the french are following the EU rules. SB needs an equivalent qualification. SB has not got an equivalent qualification. There is a specific EU rule which allows the ET. SB by his own admission has not got the ET. You may not think EU rules are correct but the french and basi are following EU rules. SB has been convicted of not following the rules which everyone apart from SB has done. |
It is your opinion that the French and BASI are following EU rules. The ECJ has not decided or been asked to decide the matter. The French courts have no opinion on the matter because they apply French law; Directives do not have vertical direct effect. Your level of certainty is remarkable given that in the area of professional qualifications, the ECJ has a track record of overturning national practices which highly paid lawyers had advised were in compliance with Directives. They got it wrong but you are certain you have it right. Personally, I think I know enough to know that I haven't a clue what the ECJ might decide if called upon to do so and theirs is the only opinion that really counts.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| TTT wrote: |
| Maybe if SB agrees not to use staff deemed underqualified he may at least be able to get his grandfather rights but I think he has annoyed so many people he has burnt his bridges. |
I suspect the latter may be the case but that doesn't make it right under EU law nor for a member organisation to be opaque with its own members about why a particular set of facts have arisen. Maybe Lockerbie's first act should be a full and frank disclosure about the "error" as it appears there are numerous BASI members still in the dark.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I suspect that basi have taken legal advice in not granting SB an MoU and are silent on SB matters because unlike SB and his team they realise that public statements may prejudice their case. I wonder how much SB is costing the membership. As SB and his team have not followed the BASI guidelines then I suspect BASI are in a strong position regarding not granting the MoU.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@dogwatch, I fully agree that I can not be certain what the ECJ would decide and have previously stated that as no one can predict with absolute certainty. I've just stated the my reading of the EU rules concurs with the French and BASI who have reviewed the matter legally. SB does not have french equivalence as he has not done capa/ET as french will have done so the question is should he also have been given an exemption from EU rules as others have been.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, basi should not make a public statement on SB's MoU for the reasons I have given and I've no doubt that is why their comments have been so guarded on the matter as they read as if they have been drafted by a lawyer as they realise the matter may turn legal. The costs of which basi members will pay.
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@albinomountainbadger, His ISTD license with MoU came through the post after he paid his subs, he was expecting it as a matter of course this season and it never arrives. He seems to have followed the application processes to the letter and over many years, not a simple case of rushing the bureaucracy but my opinion is that he was hung out to dry by someone...
Also worth noting that although each member of the MoU agreement issues MoU stamps but the master database is maintained by the SNMSF French trade union.
TTT, The L3 Mountain Safety award licenses you to teach off piste within the resort boundary, not just on ski routes.
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@skimottaret, stand corrected if wrong as did not check basi site as just on smart phone. Scary if that is the case as just a one week intro course. I thought level 2s can also once done level 3 mtn safety. I've only been on ski routes with experienced level 3s under the supervision of ISTDs.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| @albinomountainbadger, His ISTD license with MoU came through the post after he paid his subs, he was expecting it as a matter of course this season and it never arrives. He seems to have followed the application processes to the letter and over many years, not a simple case of rushing the bureaucracy but my opinion is that he was hung out to dry by someone... |
OK, that certainly seems to be the case on the face of it. BASI has a lot to answer for.
So what have the ESF in Megeve done wrong here?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
I thought level 2s can also once done level 3 mtn safety
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I think so as well but is "dependent on local regulations"
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
So what have the ESF in Megeve done wrong here? |
Been a primary complainant against SB, after years of living reasonably comfortably side by side?
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FAQ
