 Poster: A snowHead
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brendangibson. I'm going to differ with easiski slightly there. If you're a confident skier and are used to tricky ungroomed slopes there's no reason not to ski La Grave without a guide, if the weather forecast is good and plenty of people are skiing it. There are two main routes down and you need to follow the predominant tracks of other skiers.
If there's any risk of a problem with visibility, or if you feel self-doubt, ski it with a professional, as easiski advises.
It's essentially old-style skiing, before the advent of piste marking, grooming and patrolling. Skiers essentially make the piste, which is how it all used to be, before the sport became managed and manicured.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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David Goldsmith, It's not uncommon for people to get into serious trouble - eg: they follow others on the traverse from the restaurant and the others are with a guide and going to one of the couloirs .... I've seen this happen. On the Chancel side people often stray a few metres away from the tracks to get fresh snow and fall in crevasses .... High on the glacier it would be easy to think it's OK to turn off because other tracks do ... In the middle there's a signpost which goes both ways ..... Do you want to go to middle station, P1, bottom??? Once you've an idea where to go then of course, but the first time - pure stupidity, and then of course, if they die their parents can sue La Grave and we can all risk losing this wonderful resource.
BTW, if you notice there's nothing in it for me either way, but this is the advice given by all professionals in this region.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
brendangibson. I'm going to differ with easiski slightly there. If you're a confident skier and are used to tricky ungroomed slopes there's no reason not to ski La Grave without a guide, if the weather forecast is good and plenty of people are skiing it. There are two main routes down and you need to follow the predominant tracks of other skiers.
If there's any risk of a problem with visibility, or if you feel self-doubt, ski it with a professional, as easiski advises.
It's essentially old-style skiing, before the advent of piste marking, grooming and patrolling. Skiers essentially make the piste, which is how it all used to be, before the sport became managed and manicured. |
I think Charlotte makes some good points I would like to expand upon although I understand what you are saying.
Yes LaG is like old style skiing before piste bashers and all the security that has to go in place due to pressure of numbers etc but that kind of skiing was often on fairly low angled terrain - much of which has vanished under ski slopes and lifts.
There is another important difference, much of the la Grave terrain is in a high mountain environment; this adds some other risks such as crevasse and serac falls. If someone in your party falls down a crevasse can you rescue them? Do you even know where they fell? It is not that easy and if the person is injured they can die very quickly in the cold, There is also the risk of stonefall.
Charlotte makes the point about tracks - so many people ski la Grave that there are tracks everywhere - following these could (and has for some people) cost you your life. This is linked to another point which means that your advice, while possibly quite reasonable even 10 years ago, maybe no longer applies. The improvements in skis and the arrival of snowboards means that people are skiing la Grave before they have acquired the necessary all round skills and mountain knowledge required. While the two main routes are not that extreme - if you are skiing difficult unpisted blacks they still up a level, it is definitely harder than Grand Montets and you can easily head off elsewhere without realising. The improvements in skis means that people are doing routes nearly every day (and leaving tracks) where they might only have been skied a few times in a season 10 years ago. When we used to go there in the early 90s it was really just the Chancel and Vallons that got skied.
So yes, you can ski without a guide but you would be better to hire one or go with a group, it is not that expensive and from a safety and enjoyment factor will be money well spent.
Just some thoughts, this article will maybe provoke some more debate: La Grave Skiing
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davidof and easiski, thanks for that advice. Coming back to LDA (and hence a day trip to La Grave) is a possibility for me and a friend last week in March. We are holding off going firm on where we go until the last minute - so that we can go for best snow.
We have gone to La Grave on our own (after skiing it with a knowledgeable local) - but that was more than 10 years ago. I take your point about the risks these days, and am grateful for your advice. Highlights the benefit of taking advice form local experts currently skiing the area of interest.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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In high mountain terrain the routes can change over the course of a year. I don't know LG and I'd love to go but I wouldn't go there lightly without a guide or someone who knows, at least...
There is so much that can go wrong and there is so much that can go right..how lucky do you feel..? How well can you read a map and plot a route from it... What is the exposure above and below... where are the crevasses, how strong are the bridges.. Where is the easy way out when you aren't skiing it that well... My guess is its 2000 mtrs vertical and thats a long way down in trouble... Of course, on a good day, whats all the fuss...!!!
First time out for me is with a guide as you can miss so much spending all your time trying just t get down..
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I onoly ever take people down the Vallons de la Meije, but even that is different every time I go - rocks and boulders disappear and reappear, some routes are good one week and not the next and so on. I always go slow and checkout the terrain as I go - these are the sort of skills that many modern skiers lack, also most ski too fast and either miss turn offs or end up in an awkward spot! LG is the bees knees, but should never be taken lightly.
I agree that once you have the lie of the land, and a good idea of the area and the hazzards, then you can ski the vallons and the Chancel without a guide - for anything more adventurous the High Mountain guides are really necessary. 
Good day today, came over very cloudy about 3pm - hopeful now.....
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Just following people in La Grave is surely lunacy. I am not a very elegant skier and have been there with guides several times if someone followed us down thinking they can ski better than I can (Likely to be true) but didnt have the appropriate equipment they would have got a shock when the guide stops attaches me to a rope on a sling sends me down backward s and then follows. Also on the glacier there are a lot of crevasses where following roughly where someone goes can end in disaster.
Below the glacier if you know the standard routes down the skiing is not difficult in reasonable snow but sticking rigidly to Chancel and Vallons is not really experiencing what La Grave is about IMHO.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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T Bar, Of course it's not really experiencing LG, but most people never even experience that, so it may be a once in a lifetime descent. Hopefully, it will enthuse peeps to do more of that sort of thing!!!
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easiski,
I agree, I was really meaning that there is not much point in going and not taking a mountain guide (Unless very experienced in winter alpine navigation). As you won't really 'get' La Grave.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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T Bar, Absolutely! However even to go just down V de M as I do is silly for the first time without a guide (not necessarily HM of course). To really do anything there you need the full monty!!!!
It appears to be raining/sleeting here at 1650m this morning, but has clearly snowed a fair bit int he night - all the barepatches I coudl see from my window are now gone!!!
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You know it makes sense.
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There have been quite a few slides today. A skier triggered a 50cm slab in the Isere but was not hurt. The Savoie seems to be even more dangerous with accumulations of snow over 1m in places. Below 2200m you risk getting caught in a wet snow avalanche (limited survivability) and above by a slab avalanche. I'm staying at home for a few days.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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davidof, major sections of the Les Arcs/La Plagne domains closed all day today... blasting non-stop. We stayed below the treeline.
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Poster: A snowHead
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davidof, I did get told off by the pisteurs for skiing the "Snowheads Wall" - sort of. We were careful though and the snow wasn't remotely unstable there. No real off piste, but it's snowing buckets right now.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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easiski, will conditions have improved when the wind dies down?
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rob@rar.org.uk, Yes - but we're hoping for more snow with less wind! Stones etc were covered by the first snow DBY. Trouble is we always want it all! Very high winds again today. Still lots of snow to come though.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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easiski, save some for us 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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Thanks for your concern, but I didn't get over to La Grave. By the time the snow was good enough to contemplate hors-piste, they had shut the glacier lifts at Les 2 Alpes.
Plenty of lovely powder to be found just off the piste on Thursday and Friday anyway. (when you could see...)
BTW Where is the Snowheads wall?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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brendangibson, the Showheads wall is the short steep part of the left sholder of the Jandri mountain - viewed from the terrace of the 'Restaurant des glacie' . There is a (mostly unused) chairlift that runs up alongside - we dropped in having traversed from the bottom of the draglift that serves the terrain park.
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Poster: A snowHead
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brendangibson, Photo :
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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brendangibson, Yeah - the wind was 80+ kph, so nothing could run, and it would have been v. dangerous. Ski, who was at LG last week said the top lift was shut there too - not a surprise. All opened again yesterday. Glad you enjoyed what was available. These very high winds are not normal, but we are a bit windier than the Savoie and Tarantaise. (Closer to the sea). 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I know the 'Snowheads Wall' now. Saw some fresh tracks down it after it snowed, but it seemed a bit of mission to get to from the T-Bar.
next time...
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A pleasant day today with lovely snow throughout, and including some gentle rock missing on the "moonland" off the jandri. Later in the pm it came on to snow in a fairly leisurely fashion above about 2,800m or so. Should drop another couple of centimetres which will be nice.
Conditions throughout are excellent, and the avalanche risk is now down to 3.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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easiski, Has snowfall been above average this year and how much will snowfall now affect the glacier over the summer
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Russell, I'm sure easiski will correct me if I'm wrong, but I would call this winter about average for temps but much drier than usual, although depths have increased this last week. Regarding the glacier, it depends on a few things to repair the damage of recent summers. Firstly, the snow that falls during the winter on the glacier is usually very cold and dry, which means it doesn't consolidate so well, and can be stripped much quicker when the sun and warm temps get to work on it. What it really needs is a good round of freeze-thaw cycles to consolidate the snowpack into a solid lump capable of lasting well into the summer. If temps are below freezing for the early spring and theres no consolidation, when the warmer weather comes it strips quickly. Bear in mind that there was over 4m of snow on the glacier 3 years ago at the end of the season - it then got really hot and it all disappeared! Recently its snowed wetly on the lower runs at least, which will consolidate nicely and form a hard and long lasting base of boiler plate ice. As the freezing level rises in the spring, hopefully the glacier snow will get its turn at thaw/freeze, and a similar thing could happen, which will repair a lot of the damage to the hitherto permanent snow bridges destroyed by the heat a couple of years ago. The problem is, that period of freeze/thaw can be quite brief, with higher temps arriving very quickly after the end of winter and not having a gentle seasonal transition.
Thats how I see it anyway. Perhaps its dangly bits, so wait for someone better qualified to give a definitive answer.
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Admin/Moderator, thanks for judicious replacement of the b-word. Apologies.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Nice day, nice snow lower down - a bit warm though.
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