British ski instructors fined 10,000 Euros in French Alps

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DB, Times, attitudes have changed. There are British-run outfits everywhere now, the majority bona fide ski schools. Fighting to protecting you own corner is only to be expected - that after all is what SB has been doing as well.

Go to any country in the world, and you'll find someone to quote saying something xenophobic. The Brits themselves are past masters at it.

Jonpim, it takes the French for ever to get into gear, especially on administrative matters, they're role model state dinosaurs. As I understand it this type of operation has been chafing away at sensibilities for years.

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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Thanks snowscreamer, I have just entered Broomball into google and got 49,700 reponses! Shocked

I can see a lot are Canadian. You learn something new every day at Snowheads.

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PG,

Things have only changed through people (notably Brits) having to fight the French ski system over the last 30 years or more. Oh and the French are slow when it suits them (as soon as it doesn't they normally go immediately on strike).

Yes sure people say xenophobic things, but the Head of Tourism? - this goes back to what I said before about the French taking British pounds but making it hard for our people to earn French Euros. When it comes to international trade the French just don't play ball.

It's ironic that Goldsmith's electricity is most likely supplied by a French company (EDF, owners of London Electricity). Wonder if they had to pass a speed test, or will be allowed to operate for 20 odd years and then be hit with a heavy fine based on some overlooked rule?

For those who would rather support their fellow countrymen/women in France

http://www.ski-savoie.com/british_ski_schools.htm

http://travel.guardian.co.uk/activities/wintersports/story/0,7447,845574,00.html

http://www.europeanskischool.co.uk/ess%20frame.htm

http://www.easiski.com/

........... please feel free to throw up links for other instructors

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DB, I say, Monsieur Prud'homme old chap, how dare you! That's just not cricket! The Chamonix head of tourism actually quoted as saying the British are using their expat status to abuse the system, suggesting some of them should only come on holiday? Scandalous! Of course the most popular British newspaper merely comes out with comments like: "The Wapping world is peopled by wops, eyties, spics, krauts, yanks, frogs, argies" (November 1990).... or on another occasion; "Remember, folks, it won't be long before the garlic-breathed bastilles will be here in droves once the Channel Tunnel is open." and has, over the years.... asked its readers to send in their favourite jokes about the Frogs, suggested the "feelthy French FROG OFF", or presumably because a large percentage of its readership lacked the education to know better, pointed out that in order to locate France all they had to do was "face the sea and turn steadily to the left until they SMELL the garlic." (Not sure how that works if you're in John O'Groats at the time) (Or perhaps the Scots don't count). The list is endless.

There has been a constant sub-test of British superiority over the pesky, "dirty", "cowardly", "smelly" foreigner, and particularly the French. On the whole, given the virulent xenophobia and smug sense of superiority so prevalent through the years, it's rather surprising that the French, and many others who have been the subject of the bigotry and prejudice that pervades many British jibes, have managed to continue to demonstrate such a degree of tolerance.

Oh, and I'm all in favour of supporting bona fide British operations such as those you have suggested, and I have direct experience of two of those you mention, Easiski and the European Ski School (Les Deux Alpes). They pay their way, know their stuff, and have some of the best instructors I have come across. I once took a teenager to 2 Alpes, Harry Enfield's Kevin is a saint in comparison - and after threatening him with dire consequences (playing the Eagles non-stop in the car every time I gave him a lift anywhere) - he grudgingly agreed to have some tuition. After a couple of hours with Easiski, he came away saying it was fantastic, the best lesson in anything he'd ever had. It was the first time I'd heard him utter anything positive (or intelligible) for about four years, so she must be good!

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PG, You put a 'Kevin' with a female instructor!!!! She could have spent 2 hours smacking him over the head with a ski and he'd have come away happy!

Eagles! . . . you're not 'just old . . . yer sad too......... Cool

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Masque, I've been reliably informed that if you even know who they are, you're old and sad Wink

After all it is free

DB, you can't kid me: I bet you've got all the Eagles records (in vinyl). For those youngsters out there, The Eagles were a major band in the 70s with two outstanding albums in Desperado (1973) and Hotel California (1976)

But Masque, we old hippies are not stuck in a 70s timewarp (the 60s of course actually happened in the 70s). The last two CDs I got were CKY and Probot . Great music! Cool

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Jonpim, And that should make me feel 'trusting' about you sticking a needle in one of my veins!!!
Anaesthesiologists are pre-menstrual Goths with stealth weapons! Toofy Grin

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We haven't seen that spirit here since 1969

Good Grief rolling eyes

You know it makes sense.

Great description Masque, but I think you are mixing anesthesiologists up with GPs

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

If that's you in the pic Jonpim, I did meet you on a lift in La Plagne.

A snowHead

If that's you in the red wig, Jonpim, then I slept with you in Val d'Isere! Or a girl who's your spitting image. Embarassed

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Kramer, If you woke up with razor-rash on your thighs it probably was.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Back to topic... it occurs to me that tuition in France is not exclusive to the system as discussed. If Mr. Butler were to set up a French club structure, ie an alpine skiing club belonging to the French Ski Federation (FFS), the FFS does allow for internal tuition of club members under an alternative system which involves far less training than that required to achieve BASI I etc status. The 'moniteur fédéral' qualfies in two stages via courses organised by the Regional Ski Committee. At 1st degree level he/she can teach to group 2 standard. 2nd degree level enables him/her to teach all levels short of actual competition training. Beyond 2nd degree level 'Federal Trainer' status can be achieved after undergoing further training. A Federal Trainer can teach to competition level. It should be pointed out that these are strictly voluntary, unpaid positions within a club, enabling small structures with tiny budgets to exist, particularly those based some distance away from the mountains. Without this facility they would not be able to introduce town children to the slopes.

Perhaps S Butler should consider setting up a club affiliated to the FFS?! Members would simply need to hold an individual FFS licence/carte de neige, available for between £20 and £30 p.a. depending on age/options, and valid for a year, inclusive of a degree of winter sports insurance. Members of Club Butler would then be entitled to free tuition from Club Butler federal monitors, all legal and above board!

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Perhaps S Butler should set up a club affiliated to ..........

No speed test required

It can't be that difficult to enrole if these two got in .......

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That's another fine mess he's gotten himself into.

But seriously folks, as a club affiliated to the FFS he might well be able to sort out his current predicament.

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PG, What an interesting idea! One would hope it could work, but I wonder if there's devil in the detail. It would certainly seem to be worthy of further investigation by Messrs Butler and Barrett-Boyce.

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Can he form a club affiliated to the FFES (the independent ski instructors syndicate) or does it have to be FFS (which basically belongs to the ESF?) Confused

After all it is free

easiski, I thought the FFS had managed to go bankrupt all on its own, without the help of the ESF! It is true that with the rapid fall in the number of licence holders and certain internal 'irregularities' the FFS had dug itself into a pretty big hole. The French government's solution has been to push for far greater involvement of the various ski industry 'economic powers' in the FFS, (such as the lift companies, the ESF, the resorts themselves)... but I'm not sure where we're at right now. The government bail-outs have all but ceased as far as I know, and the above-mentioned 'partners' were directly asked to begin investing in the future of the FFS by the sports minister, Jean-François Lamour. I wonder what the quid pro quo will be.

I know very little about the FFES - all the clubs are as far as I know affiliated to the FFS, whether alpine, or 'citadin'.

laundryman, Fluency in French would be needed for a starter in order to take the French-run courses.

My kids started off in a club a long way from the snow (near Avignon), run on a tiny budget, and so all the 'trainers' were either 'moniteurs fédéraux' or entraîneurs fédéraux', voluntary, unpaid positions. They were on the whole good skiers, but not exceptional. Very few mountain-based clubs would use instructors who have qualified through this system as from early teens upwards the pupils would be as fast or faster than their trainers, and probably as technically proficient.

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As a former recruiter / headhunter I found that the French (bless em) have not quite got around to the fact that they are in a free market economy called the EU and other things. They seem to ignore the fact that we are all free to work anywhere within the EU.
Is anything being done about standardising teaching methods across europe so that this kind of thing cannot happen? Crying or Very sad

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Rhys Brown, They have been! I know it's a long thread, but there's a lot about the equivalence of qualifications now awarded by all the ISIA member countries and based on a common, standardised system of training would-be instructors.

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PG, I understood that ESF instructors wishing to belong to a Union (Syndicate) all belonged to the FFS, but if you worked independently or for an "international" ski school then you belonged to the FFES which has now been renamed SIMS as a separate union, which has also now started running training courses and so on. Siege Nationale in Annecy. I was "recycled" by them last spring!!

You know it makes sense.

I have just returned from a skiing trip with Simon Butler.

His teaching is magnificent and his staff are too.

We were in a group of 26 who would not, under any circustances, have instruction with the ESF.

On our trip on this, our second visit to Megeve with Simon Butler, we found that the ESF were rude and arrogant to us and even tried to stop us skiing on some slopes that they wanted to keep clear for thier own students.

Being an advanced skier myself 3 of our group were taught by Simon himself and there was one ESF instructor (Julie who is in the World Cup team) who had the upmost respect for Simon and his company and was more than helpful. She helped lay out the slalom course for our downhill race on the Friday and even competed in it.

So i would suggest that if Simon Butler was ‘hounded out’ of Megeve and France, then he would move onto another town and take his 100+ per week clients with him. How this helps the French people i do not know.

With regard to his friend the Australian, I do not see the relevance of it. We were not introduced, nor was he mentioned. He was not in contact with any of Simon Butlers guests.

As far as Mr Barret-Boyce running an illegal bar goes, as i understand it the alcohol consumed was bought by his guests from a local supermarket and put behind the bar in their chalet (wrongly i admit but done in good faith). The alcohol was not ‘sold’ to his guests as it was not his to sell. But by having spirits behind the bar he was in breach. It was not exactly running an illegal bar as such was it?

The problem with the ESF is that the instructors that Simon Butler employs are BETTER instructors than themselves. This is not to say that the ESF instuctors are all bad, but i would not let my children be in the responsibility of ESF instructors. On more than one occasion i had an ESF pupil on a chairlift with me and if that pupil fell off the lift (as did happen to one poor child while i was there), then i would most likely be liable for that. With the Simon Butler instructors it is made crystal clear how they care for your child and how they minimise the risks.

The problem with the French instructors is not just with the ESF. I was on a trip to Orciers in January and competed in Le Croisiere Blanch, an off road rally. Again the majoroty of the GRM French marshalls (instructors, call them what you will) were rude and arrogant and continually thought they were right over everything. The fact is that there were better and more experienced English people there and had a constant battle with the French over safety issues and 'red tape.' Even though the French were wrong they attempted to have us removed from the rally and 'their' slopes!!! This highlights the point that if the GRM or ESF feel threatened by an outsider they will do everything in their power to expel the threat to themselves to protect their image.

So although Simon does not 'poach' or solicit any ESF pupils, nor does he have SIMON BUTLER SKIING emblazonned all over his instructors clothing, they are still trying to have him removed.

I will not ski with the ESF. I would go to Austria, Switzerland or Italy if the ESF was the only option. So would i imagine, the 2000 or so guests of Simon Butler Skiing every year.

Simon, I hope that you can continue with your instruction in Megeve and i’ll see you later this year in your new chalet.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

pacman,

A snowHead

A snowHead

French administrative practices do to an extent restrict free enterprise, without a doubt. But this is not the issue. As long as they affect everyone equally then it is something we can either choose to live with, emigrate to a country with a more free market-oriented system, or we can break the law. In this a case a business was prosecuted and convicted for breaking the law.

I'm not getting into the political arguments - this is the wrong forum, and I can play devil's advocate for either 'side'. On the whole the French believe that there's more to life than economics, although they are no doubt fighting a losing battle.

As for the little Englander abroad, they're easy enough to find, I'm ashamed to say.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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PG; I think that I have managed to read all of this thread over a number of sessions but apologies if I have missed something. The problem as I see it is not that there are equal rules to which everyone must comply.

This is a common problem of Roman Law / Napoleonic Code in that there are lots of rules which are usually not complied with by anyone but which can be used to target someone who has upset the authorities.

The rules for instructors are to maintain a high standard of instruction and safety. Simon appears to have achieved this for many years and has not been prosecuted over the details. Now he has been tripped up by the details despite his high standards because he was targeted by the authorities. I think that I read that he was targeted after a complaint by someone from the ESF.

This type of problem inhibits me from ever taking my boat to France. The rules are not the problem; it is very clearly stated that my boat and my qualifications need to comply in the UK not in any other EU country. But I have no confidence that I would not upset inadvertentlya local official or the friend of a local official. I do behave myself in other countries but there is always the potential for a communication difficulty.

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john wells, There's a lot of truth in your comments. I've found that the French are 'less rigorous' in enforcing certain rules & regs, and as you say there are too many of them, they are too easily circumvented, and there appears to be, how can I put it... local variations. Wink

The problem is that complacency can creep in. A technically illegal situation may have been allowed to continue far longer than in the likes of the UK, but when the machine eventually cranks up it's no real excuse to say "but I'd been allowed to get away with it for years...."

On the other hand those visitors who have done all they can to ensure that they are in conformity wih French/European laws and demonstrate respect for both the French people and their customs, in my experience, have nothing to be apprehensive about and will be given a genuinely warm welcome.

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PG
You are obviously French.
As you were not there when we encountered the problem with the GRM i suggest you refrain from making a fool of yourself. I did not say that it was a total shables, or did i say that in the past we were never made to feel welcome. I said that when we came across a problem with some French marshalls and they did not like being proved wrong they tried to have us banned from the event. It highlights the French way thats all. So stop being a 'pig headed little Frenchman'

As far as the Simon Butler situation is concerned, it was started by one branch of the ESF who complained that Simon had guests out on the slopes. That is a fact.

It is MY OPINION that the ESF instructors are not as good as Simon Butlers. I AM ENTITLED AN OPINION AND I STAND BY IT. The incident with the child falling off the chairlift was not down to the ESF anyway. It was an example of what potentially could happen with them as i witnessed.

I believe that Simon will win his appeal in any case and he will continue in his business. I'm sure that will infuriate the ESF and i expect they will try another tactic

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pacman, I am 100% British and proud of it. Just goes to show how wrong snap judgements can be, doesn't it? As a consequence, I remain rather sceptical about your 'facts' and opinions. All that nonsense about the rally at Orcières - well clearly you weren't to know that I virtually lived there for several winter seasons and was directly involved, but all the same. I just won't sit by while countries are stereotyped in the manner in which you indulge, and if that makes me 'French' in your eyes, well then that's fine by me!

After all it is free

Why is it nonsense?
What happened happened.
We were led around like schoolchildren in a convoy. When we encountered problems we dealt with them.
What annoyed us was when we were told to do things that we know are incorrect and we challenged it. It is dangerous up there and if a marshall insists that we winch in a particular way, then there is a problem. If a marshall is wrong then he is wrong. We sucessfully recovered the vehicle in the way we felt was appropriate. End of story. But not so for the narshalls concerned. They attempted to have us removed from the remainder of the rally. WHY?

The facts are the facts.

The fact is there is one branch of the ESF that wants to cause problems for Simon Butler. WHY?

Why shouldn't Simon Butler run his company in the manner he is? He has been in Megeve for 20 years and is well known to everyone in the resort. He is a valued customer of many of the local businesses and his instruction is first class. The problem is that some of his instructors are not BASI1. So what? Not all the ESF instructors are fully qualified either. They can employ 'trainee' instructors can't they? It is the only way they can learn isn't it? So why can Simon Butler not do likewise? He does not charge for instruction either. It is an all inclusive package price to us. So when i am skiing, surely i can ski with whoever i like?

ESF want the monopoly and have noticed that Simon is taking approx 100 guests per week to Megeve. They want to teach those people. GREED. The Simon Butler guests will not use the ESF out of principle, even if Simon had to stop (which he wont, he'll just start up his own ski school with the 4 BASI1 instructors he has)

The local businesses will suffer as a consequence of the ESF's actions in trying to stop Simon Butler trading. How will this help anyone?

If you can explain this to me then please do.

pacman - we really have done this subject to death and, although I have some sympathy with the British companies involved, your rather confrontational approach is doing little to change my mind, let alone those who support the French legal action.

Using "you are obviously French" as a counter-argument is particularly unhelpful!

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I apologise for being confrontational.
No offense meant.
I just don't see how it is fair.
The French authorities like to assert their authority whenever they get the chance and i do not understand why?
I flew to Austria last year in a private twin engined aircraft and the pilot was refused entry into French airspace because of his age. He was a fully qualified Commercial Captain, not a newly qualified pilot. He knew he would be refused but attempted anyway because we could not believe it.
The situation with Simon Butler is similar to the situation with a current manager of a Premiership football club in the UK. The manager has been doing his job but does NOT have the required qualifications as yet. BUT he is allowed to continue doing his job on the understanding that he is atempting to get the required qualifications.
That is the situation with Simon. He is training his instructors to the level required.
This will go to the European Courts of Human Rights ultimately.
I understand that Simon will be putting information on his website in the near future.

I apologise if i have upset anyone with any of my comments.

Help!!

British ski instructors fined 10,000 Euros in French Alps

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