skir67, we now have some 'brut de neiges' areas in Serre Chevalier, which were pisted marked runs, but are now unpisted, it seems to be quite common.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
stewart woodward wrote:
From Pistehors.com
Quote:
We were two groups of ten with a trainer in each group. For those who know Tignes we were in the Toviere sector on the Paquerettes black only nowadays it is not marked so an off piste. We had the OK of the piste patrol to go. Each group took a different couloir, in the middle a big drift that separated the couloirs, our trainers checked the terrain, tried to provoke a slide etc. My trainer went first and each group went one by one into the couloirs. I was in 9th place. I waited for my trainer who shouted “stop, don’t go to the left”. I looked round and saw the slide had taken the other trainer, he managed to stay on the surface by grabing onto a rock. I was taken up to my waist, my trainer saved my life or I would have been in the middle of it. We saw the slide break above us. I didn’t realise at the start, then everything went very quickly. We found the first victim because his hand was sticking out of the snow then the patrollers arrived and began to probe. Lots of reinforcements arrived, the ESF, the ENSA. We found N after 20 minutes which seemed like hours to me, he didn’t have any injuries and is ok but very shocked then Chloe after another 25 minutes, her heart had stopped, then activity restarted, then an artificial coma, we kept our hopes up but she died yesterday. We are thinking a great deal about her family.
Absolutely baffled why trainers thought it would be ok to ski off piste without transceivers
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Timmaah, but there does seem to be some doubt, does there not, as to whether this was in fact the hybrid which used to be called an 'intineraire' shown (still?) on French piste maps as a dotted line? I have skied countless times on such runs, often alone, and without avi gear. Maybe, if there is a court case, light will be shed on the status of such runs.
I must admit that, after last week's snow and lack of visibility in Tignes, I am seriously thinking of purchasing the gear and skiing with it all the time, even though I'm not really an off-piste skier. It was all too easy to wander off the beaten track by mistake.
Pedantica, absolutely. I had a similar experience to Monium in St.Anton once and ended up far off piste in high level avalanche conditions when I thought I was on the piste from the top of Galzig to the Schindlergratbahn. I eventually ended up down in St.Christoph. Really easy to do in fog/whiteout conditions.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Monium, I am not familiar with Tignes, but having just had a look at the piste map, I can see how you could be there without realising, especially if signposts were not as clear as they could be and visibility was not good. I know hubby once ended up on an off-piste area in Serre che in bad visibility. We've skied the run dozens if not hundreds of times, but he only realised when he saw rocks to the right of him and not to the left.
I agree. In ADH last year when it was chucking it down for day 1 and 2, slopes were being covered in substantial amounts of snow before they could be piested again. It was incredibly difficult to tell which were pistes and which were not in some places.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
dynarob wrote:
Monium wrote:
......................Someone out of the 100+ people on the piste must have videoed the area where they all congregated to put their skis back on and head off after the rescue, or someone must have an image of that many people gathered on the piste from the Aeroski, that was where we turned.
Here is my video footage of that area at that time but it doesn't really show much.
For anyone retracing the route we took - the turning we took is visible 20 seconds in, it has a signpost pointing in two directions, that is where we went, that is where the rescuers were returning from, and that was where the closed piste signs were put across after the avalanche and did not reopen that we saw in the days afterwards.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Pedantica, that's a very fair point, especially given the reassurances from patrol. It falls back to the whole notion of human judgement and do you go against your preliminary concerns because one person says otherwise.
Personally, had I be in a similar situation but not spoken to patrol, I wouldn't have skied it. Had I spoken it I would've felt very safe in skiing it. Disappointing that someone died in the process and I'm sure, if what is being said about the patrol's assurances is true, that the patrol feel awful
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
richjp wrote:
SkiPresto wrote:
I'd say you can and should practise transceiver searches with your mates.
The tip is to remember to take a carrier bag to keep a buried transceiver dry.
secondly, before burying a transceiver remember to switch it on.
Third, remember it's a radio signal and the field strength radiates in a sphere. So be ready to move in a circle.
fourth. In a deep burial, say 3m, when your receiver indicates range is 3m, you may well be right on top of it.
When you can locate a single transciever in under 3 minutes, bury two and learn how to range on one of them when the other range is coming in too.
Then, see if you can locate a buried transciever while skiing past, trying to keep above it.
This will be familiar to experienced people, but I mention it so that others don't feel they need to go on a course before practising.
This is certainly one of the silliest posts I have seen in a while.
Firstly you do not need "to go on a course" to learn how to use a transceiver. You go on a course if you want to learn all about avalanche awareness, terrain, weather and all the things that are important to minimise getting caught in an avalanche in the first place.
You will not learn to use a transceiver however, by reading a one paragraph post on the internet. Many of the groups I have skied off pists with include people using a transceiver for the first time. A guide will typically take between an hour and an hour and a half to go through all the issues involving the use of a transceiver, which are far more extensive than you have outlined. It is essential in my view to be trained by someone who knows what they are doing.
Well, here at SkiPresto do know what we are doing (you may be relieved to know).
Sorry it's taken a while to get round to dealing with this one, but because of the way it has been written, a response would seem to be required.
In contrast with the quoted piece above (see after "silliest posts") we do not go offpiste with people who are using a transceiver for the first time.
People who want to go offpiste on a good powder day don't pay to see neophytes being taught how to use transceivers for the first time. Certainly if it's a heli-ski, it's pretty full-on, working quickly and everyone is expected to be at least competent in a self-reliant team.
They also want everyone in the group to be fluent and confident with the transceiver, because any team member could be the one whose job it is to search and locate and dig you out in a real emergency.
The advice is:
Get your own transceiver and learn how to handle it and use it - till you can do it with your eyes shut (ears open). The digital ones are quicker because less skilled people can use them effectively because there's no analogue range to adjust manually.
It is unwise to trust someone else's transceiver - the batteries might be old or the battery contacts faulty. There is a price, but it will last you for years if you look after it. Plus it has great value in saving life and avoiding being prosecuted for not using one.
To quote Pistehors excellent advice site:-
"Train at the start of and several times during the season, you can practise in your local park or even in the back garden. The stress of an avalanche is not the time to get the instruction book out! Your search should be a reflex action. "
Quite often, you'll get an opportunity to train on the mountain. If you are waiting for others, or having lunch on a nice day - have a search test challenge.
The leader (sometimes it's me) doesn't necessarily need people with much knowledge of " ... avalanche awareness, terrain, weather ..." in a group going offpiste.
That's the leader's job to have that knowledge.
However, one day, my number will come up and a slope I'm testing might take me. I want the people in the group to locate me immediately, and, to stand a chance of getting to me within 3 or four minutes, they need to train in using their transceiver beforehand.
People should also train with as many different types of transceiver as possible, just in case you have to use a different one one day.
The notes above are sufficient to make a start at getting to know your transceiver.
In multiple-transceiver tests, you switch off the ones you find first.
At least if you remember point 2 in the notes, you won't be "silly" and forget to switch on the leader's transceiver again prior to burying it for the next attempt.
Expect to take a couple of days to get really quick - especially for the search whilst skiing and multiple searches.
When hiding the transceiver it needs to be properly hidden. Footsteps leading to the spot make the test less worthwhile.
A good website page for advice is http://pistehors.com/backcountry/wiki/Gear/Avalanche-Transceivers
Also HenrysAvalancheTalks.com
Obviously there is a huge bibliography on the subject.
To exclude the possibility of misunderstandings and unintended consequences:
These notes and advice are no substitute for one-to-one coaching. They are intended as examples of preparatory and top-up training and familiarity in the use of a particular piece of apparatus. This is seen as prerequisite training for actually using the equipment in mountain environment, and more training and familiarity should then be carried out.
Transceivers do not give protection, they simply enable others to have a method to find you more quickly, and potentially administer ABC first Aid / Triage.
Transceivers allow trained users to potentially save a life, or at least, by locating a casualty, remove the call on large-scale search parties, thereby preventing the exposure to unnecessary risk of large numbers of other people.
Skiing with a transciever but no probe and shovel is not a recommended course of action.
No responsibility is taken for any mishap resulting from following these notes. Use at your own risk.
Several incidents resulting in casualties have arisen from training in mountain environments and particular attention must be paid to keeping safe.
In particular, although material may be quoted from or appear independently on other sources such as for example BASI, these other sources are to be treated as completely separate from the views and writing of the author.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Quote:
People who want to go offpiste on a good powder day don't pay to see neophytes being taught how to use transceivers for the first time. Certainly if it's a heli-ski, it's pretty full-on, working quickly and everyone is expected to be at least competent in a self-reliant team.
They also want everyone in the group to be fluent and confident with the transceiver, because any team member could be the one whose job it is to search and locate and dig you out in a real emergency.
And who is checking your proficiency in transceiver usage? or if you fall to pieces under pressure of your friends slowly dying below your feet and why do you feel the self important need to try to teach people how to use a transceiver over the internet, wouldn't your long winded bleats be better served face to face with people where you might actually teach someone something.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
geeo, I think that’s a little harsh.
I’ve been following this thread with interest (especially as elsewhere on the site I’ve posted about wanting to start off-piste) and as a whole I’ve found the info about training very useful.
I’m not about to take a print out of advice above to the local park and have a go myself, but the depth of advice above has reinforced in my mind how seriously training should be taken.
So I’ve had a look this morning for actual training courses, sent a few emails, bookmarked a few websites etc.
I think a wonderful strength of this forum is the amount of different people with different experiences who are willing to share that experience and knowledge, and help out those a little newer.
And I would think it’s a positive that if as a result of this tragic accident discussions like this do happen, and knowledge is shared about the need for frequent training, testing of skills, practice etc with transceivers and other equipment – it’s certainly been very educational for me.
So thank you everyone from me for your contributions!
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
SkiPresto wrote:
However, one day, my number will come up and a slope I'm testing might take me.
I'm sure those you describe as "Neophytes" would pay to see that
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I meant to respopnd to richjp's post earlier:
richjp wrote:
This is certainly one of the silliest posts I have seen in a while.
Firstly you do not need "to go on a course" to learn how to use a transceiver.
Good , so you agree with him. So why is it a silly post? It seems to me that any information to help people understand these things is positive.
This seems to me to be one of several examples on this thread of knowledgeable and sensible posts being rubbished by people who don't know any more (and often less) than those they attack.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
never summer wrote:
It's a serious topic but this "self-rescue" makes me smile. You still will be relying in 99.9% of the cases on rescuers to arrive. .
Presuming that by self-rescue you mean rescue by your companions (I don't think anyone has suggested actual self-rescue) - this is not true. As has been said by others, by the time help comes your chances of being found alive have usually been considerably reduced. Your best chance is always that your companions find you in the first 15 minutes.
As neversummer went on to sensibly note, this will be as much about good judgement as transceiver skills and these other skills need to be trained at the same time and only sometimes are. Most obviously someone has to take charge and co-ordinate the rescue. (And it hardly needs saying that the most important skill of all is not getting into high danger situations in the first place.)
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Bode Swiller wrote:
SkiPresto wrote:
However, one day, my number will come up and a slope I'm testing might take me.
I'm sure those you describe as "Neophytes" would pay to see that
What kind of comment is that?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
patricksh, it's called a joke.
He views people who want to learn from scratch as being "neophytes" - ie they've converted to his religion but he's not prepared to waste any time on them. Sees himself as a God possibly, I dunno. Then he potentially sacrifices himself to test the slope. It's all very weird. Professionals don't talk like that.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Bode Swiller,
Quote:
Professionals don't talk like that
Nor do they pack so little information into so many words...
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Bode Swiller, Steilhang, I think that's a bit harsh. His writing style may not be to your taste, but I agree with others who have stated that there is useful information to be found in the posts.
People who want to go offpiste on a good powder day don't pay to see neophytes being taught how to use transceivers for the first time. Certainly if it's a heli-ski, it's pretty full-on, working quickly and everyone is expected to be at least competent in a self-reliant team.
They also want everyone in the group to be fluent and confident with the transceiver, because any team member could be the one whose job it is to search and locate and dig you out in a real emergency.
And who is checking your proficiency in transceiver usage? or if you fall to pieces under pressure of your friends slowly dying below your feet and why do you feel the self important need to try to teach people how to use a transceiver over the internet, wouldn't your long winded bleats be better served face to face with people where you might actually teach someone something.
Sorry to cause "geeo" to reply with such a response.
"geeo" asks several questions, and might be put out as being ignored if I don't answer. So, at the risk of boring everyone else: Here's some answers:-
Q1 a
Quote:
"And who is checking your proficiency in transceiver usage?"
#A1 a - I have a valid qualification, and it was assessed then. It doesn't make me anything special, but it makes me one step ahead on a long road. The problem is, nobody really checks avalanche transceiver proficiency thereafter. So your question is quite astute. That's why I recommend training with your mates in a competitive way, making the tests more and more awkward and having fun and building bonding amongst a team in a safe environment.
Q1 b
Quote:
"or if you fall to pieces under pressure of your friends slowly dying below your feet"
#A1 b I'll be sensitive here because this is such an emotionally charged question, I get the feeling the questioner might have experienced something of that him/herself. Well the answer is: I will, if called upon, do my duty and manage emergency situations by carrying out my training, securing my group, organising search, digging, extraction and casualty assessment and first aid, communicating with emergency services, organising helicopter landing areas etc.
I'll try to get the duty done first, and then think of my own predicament emotionally and psychologically.
Q2 a
Quote:
"..and why do you feel the self important need..."
#A2 a The question is blunt, and so is the answer. "Self Important?" no more than any other person who assumes a leadership role in the mountains. Self preservation, more like. Competence in others means that if I get buried one day, they might remember how to go about doing an Avalanche Transceiver search, and save my life. I was in Chamonix one time when I was training, and there had been a recent tragedy. My trainer was visibly upset because he and all the guides and Moniteurs had just been to the funeral of a guide colleague whose group had decided to ski home and summon help, leaving him to suffocate in his own exhaled CO2 under a fairly light covering of snow that if he had been located, clearing his airway would have been the only first aid required.
Q2 b
Quote:
"[why do you] try to teach people how to use a transceiver over the internet"
#A2 b I am not doing teaching at all. If I was teaching, the people would be paying for it.
I am trying to raise awareness about self-reliance, self-rescue in a group, and trying to let people give themselves the permission to go and get this particular equipment, familiarise themselves with its use, and train with it. Even prior to going on an "offpiste course".
Q3
Quote:
"wouldn't your long winded bleats be better served face to face with people where you might actually teach someone something"
A3 Nobody in real mountain country gets away with being "long winded". Best to get the fiddly bits understood before people go into harm's way.
I'd much rather be out skiing, but currently, I'm still recovering from leg surgery.
Anyway, my original post was pretty concise, but I got such a response to it as to require more clarification. Every time I get a challenging response, I feel I have to answer.
Thank you to "Fixx" for giving encouragement and support to people beginning to think of investing in Avalanche Safety kit.
If any of the Forum Admins could advise on how to take this discussion elsewhere, please go ahead. It's going off the original topic and attracting responses of low information quality.
I think the risk of attracting a rough crowd who don't need the information is worth it if someone who does get a worthwhile read from this.
Footnote:
This is a Forum, and forums are for debate. Trying to assert a point of view by fallacious argument should be recognised for what it is.
The favourite one on Snowheads seems to ignoring the topic and just going for the personal attack.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
SkiPresto,
Quote:
a guide colleague whose group had decided to ski home and summon help, leaving him to suffocate in his own exhaled CO2 under a fairly light covering of snow that if he had been located, clearing his airway would have been the only first aid required.
How dreadful and what a terrible weight of guilt to bear.
So - as I'm getting close to purchasing my own equipment - is there somewhere in London I can go for professional training on how to use it? (Apologies if the answer to that is already somewhere in the thread.)
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Pedantica, +1
Edit: Your first comment that is... doubt I'll need much in the way of equipment to locate my friends in my own preferred environment
After all it is free
After all it is free
Pedantica, I dunno his advice is rather out of date TBH. The focus is on decision making and group dynamics these days and how to deal with heuristic traps. The idea being that it's much better to not get caught in an avalanche in the first place than to deal with consequences. For example studies have shown that groups with 'leaders' or a perceived leader are much more inclined to take risks than those without as everyone gets involved in the decision making rather than deferring to the expert.
Skills like knowing how to locate, dig out and administer first aid (often forgotten) to a casualty are all imperative as well, since decision making can never be perfect as our knowledge of the snowpack is necessarily limited. One of the quotes I like but cannot remember who first said is, "the snowpack is always in question and terrain choice is always the answer". Emphasis on choice as most people trigger the avalanche that buries them (or their party) and had to make a conscious decision to ski the slope in question.
IMO teaching people the skills of avalanche rescue and instilling a strong trust in leadership for decision making is setting people up to make poor choices in the future even if the decision making of the leader is excellent at the time.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Schuss in Boots wrote:
Pedantica, +1
Edit: Your first comment that is... doubt I'll need much in the way of equipment to locate my friends in my own preferred environment
.
Nor me, and this thread has only made me less likely to need to buy equipment and venture off-piste.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Quote:
fallacious argument
I had one of them with Mrs Red 27 last night. I lost
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Schuss in Boots, Hells Bells, I know what you mean, but the Tignes avalanche was very close to a piste and it was easy, generally during last week, to wander off-piste by mistake. In addition to which, while I'm not gnarly, I do like having a play to the sides of the piste and have even been known trustingly to follow a snowHead - rather well-known to you - in a proper off-piste ramble!
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Pedantica, yes, I do try to avoid following that certain SnowHead off-piste if at all possible. I also hate carrying a backpack with me.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
meh, I understand what you're saying, but surely it's not 'either/or' - the combination of understanding the heuristic traps and having a competent leader is probably the best one.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Hells Bells wrote:
Pedantica, yes, I do try to avoid following that certain SnowHead off-piste if at all possible. I also hate carrying a backpack with me.
Agreed about the backpack (or at least a larger one than the tiny one I currently use.)
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Pedantica, you probably have more chanced of getting killed travelling to and from the airport
I remember a couple of VERY interesting Off-Piste rambles instigated by kramer. The risks we took were far smaller than the laughs we had
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Frosty the Snowman, good point, well argued.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Pedantica, I was ill-advised into buying a Dakine Heli-pro, too many straps and far too large. Your small one would be the biggest I would be comfortable with. I've used mine off-piste once with borrowed equipment. Looking back at what I said, perhaps I should trust the person wanting me to go off-piste more than I currently do.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Frosty the Snowman, I remember going to VT for a few days when J was still recovering from his neck injury. Not quite his first venture back onto skis, but certainly his first off-piste was with Kramer
I was ill-advised into buying a Dakine Heli-pro, too many straps and far too large
You do get used to them. I used my Dakine (admittedly the smaller version) when trekking in Nepal and found it very comfortable - especially when I cut off most of the straps!
I remember a couple of VERY interesting Off-Piste rambles instigated by kramer. The risks we took were far smaller than the laughs we had
Ah yes - having pisted a path down the slope with my face, there then followed the first (but not the last) slinging down of the poles and proclaiming the "effing boots were going on ebay when I get back". Happy daze.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Tarquin,
After all it is free
After all it is free
Pedantica wrote:
So - as I'm getting close to purchasing my own equipment - is there somewhere in London I can go for professional training on how to use it? (Apologies if the answer to that is already somewhere in the thread.)
Why don't we get something set up at Hemel in the new year? There must be a time when we can use the training slope there, to provide a realistic environment, and there must be suitably qualified instructors who can teach a suitable few hours on this? Given the events of the last couple of weeks, we are thinking about getting the gear, but obviously having a transceiver and being able to actually help each other is another thing.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Schuss in Boots wrote:
Pedantica, +1
Edit: Your first comment that is... doubt I'll need much in the way of equipment to locate my friends in my own preferred environment
Beer goggles....?
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
red 27 wrote:
Quote:
fallacious argument
I had one of them with Mrs Red 27 last night. I lost
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
