 Poster: A snowHead
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Generic anti ESF rants are just dumb.
Especially some of the drivel claiming that all ESF instructors are pipe smoking, 'bend zee knees' dinosaurs. |
I speak as I find. I never had anything more than 'follow-me' and a few cliches thrown at me broadly equivalent to 'bend zee knees'. It was the reason I gave up on ski instruction because I thought that was what it was all like, and while it was a pleasant experience being shown around the hill by guys who were passionate about their mountains it really didn't help me improve my skiing to I could actually access much of those wonderful mountains.
More recent 2nd hand experience from some of my neighbours in Les Arcs, plus what I see as I ski there myself, hasn't persuaded me that things are any different now. It would be nice if getting fully qualified to Euro Pro standard guaranteed a positive attitude to teaching and a willingness to actually use some of the teaching skills that you are required to demonstrate to pass, and that this commitment to improving your students skiing stays with you for the duration of your career. I don't see the same level of poor service in the ESI ski schools in Les Arcs (Arc Adventures or Spirit 1950) so please don't say it is an anti-French rant. It's just not. It seems to me that many of the ESF schools are too big, too cumbersome and too complacent. Rather than trying to raise their game to match or exceed what the minnows are offering it uses its muscle to make life difficult for its competitors. Unfortunately it's not just ESF that loses out.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| spud wrote: |
'There is another law in France that you can basically have ‘accompanied skiing’ (ie ‘showing a guest around’ the resort) ONLY if that comes as part of the purchased package. I believe that Simon Butler argued his holidays fit into that catagory. But actual instruction should not be given in such a case as the accompanying party would not be ‘qualified’ under law to give instruction. '
If true... then i can't see how the ESF have a leg to stand on. |
I'd be interested to know what this law is too.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
I'd be interested to know what this law is too.
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Having spoken with the DDCS and the PGHM on this issue within the last week (during the Festival International des Métiers de Montagne at Chambéry) as far as they are concerned the regulations are quite clear (as in Code de Sport).
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
I don't see the same level of poor service in the ESI ski schools in Les Arcs (Arc Adventures or Spirit 1950) so please don't say it is an anti-French rant.
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I, and many people staying at our place, have had good service (at very low cost) in private lessons from our ESI. I suspect that (as somebody suggested above) a lot of French holiday makers don't actually want technical instruction at all. I have mostly had private lessons but I did one group with the ESI, very cheap, end of season, which was supposed to be for people comfortable on all red slopes (it was their top group at the time). Apart from one young lad and myself, none of them was comfortable on even an easy red slope except at super slow speed in the most perfect conditions and what should have been a terrific morning on unpisted red slopes, after an overnight fall, was aborted because they just all fell over all the time and couldn't get up again. We did pisted blues, instead. The instructor tried to give them some basic technical instruction (like keeping the weight on the correct leg, not complicated stuff) but they appeared to take zero notice, and just giggled when they fell over. I wanted to slap them. I'd be a useless ski instructor...).
I suppose if what most one week holiday punters want is "follow me round the mountain" and they take little or no notice of any technical input the instructor attempts, that's what they get. If the instructor of our group had tried to get us doing some more focussed drills, I suspected they'd have rebelled.
On the other hand, I have French neighbours whose 3 girls have all been through the ESF system, at least two weeks a year, sometimes more. They are very good skiers and from talking to them it seems that the standards imposed are quite strict (e.g. the little one was gutted not to get some badge or other because she was a second or so too slow on the time trial). Maybe the ESF take some of their customers more seriously than others.
I suspect the majority of British holiday skiers aren't interested in technical instruction either. Even on SHs, which is hardly an average sample, there are quite a lot of people who just want to cruise around, after their first week or so of instruction. If they are cruising round with an ESF instructor at least they'll get a good role model laying down the right lines.
If custom falls off for the ESF (or for those stupidly expensive mountain restaurants and bars in the big resorts) no doubt they will think about how they need to do things differently. But if people keep rolling up, why should they bother?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| pam w wrote: |
| But if people keep rolling up, why should they bother? |
I don't have a problem with that. If people are happy with the service they get that's just fine. It's not my experience, but that's really not a very big sample. What I object to is the ESF playing a leading role in trying to squash what other organisations are doing by using inappropriate (IMHO) regulations.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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just as another diversion,
We had a chalet girl whose resposibilities began and ended at cooking food and making beds. End of.
However, she was very sociable (in the nicest possible way), skied quite well, better and keener than any of the other chalet catering staff and so offered to ski with the guests if she liked them enough and they wanted to.
Naturally as she knew the area way better than they did, she would tend to take point, and i imagine that to most observers, she would appear to be guiding.
Grey area?
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| under a new name wrote: |
just as another diversion,
We had a chalet girl whose resposibilities began and ended at cooking food and making beds. End of.
However, she was very sociable (in the nicest possible way), skied quite well, better and keener than any of the other chalet catering staff and so offered to ski with the guests if she liked them enough and they wanted to.
Naturally as she knew the area way better than they did, she would tend to take point, and i imagine that to most observers, she would appear to be guiding.
Grey area? |
no, it's not part of her job description, it's not an advertised service, and that she's choosing who to ski with means it's not also open to the public. That's just skiing with friends.
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| feef wrote: |
| under a new name wrote: |
just as another diversion,
We had a chalet girl whose resposibilities began and ended at cooking food and making beds. End of.
However, she was very sociable (in the nicest possible way), skied quite well, better and keener than any of the other chalet catering staff and so offered to ski with the guests if she liked them enough and they wanted to.
Naturally as she knew the area way better than they did, she would tend to take point, and i imagine that to most observers, she would appear to be guiding.
Grey area? |
no, it's not part of her job description, it's not an advertised service, and that she's choosing who to ski with means it's not also open to the public. That's just skiing with friends. |
That's just the skiing version of the classic 'Escort' ruse isn't it. Payment is for time spent with the escort, anything else that happens is a non business agreement between 2 consenting adults.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Easy answer if To's want to play the ESF at their own game.
Employ Ski Hosts only as Chalet Helpers or Transfer drivers or whatever. Pay them only for that. Get them to agree or are encouraged that in their free time they offer clients a social ski around the resorts.
It would all come down to wording in contract and on advertising of TO.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| feef wrote: |
| under a new name wrote: |
just as another diversion,
We had a chalet girl whose resposibilities began and ended at cooking food and making beds. End of.
However, she was very sociable (in the nicest possible way), skied quite well, better and keener than any of the other chalet catering staff and so offered to ski with the guests if she liked them enough and they wanted to.
Naturally as she knew the area way better than they did, she would tend to take point, and i imagine that to most observers, she would appear to be guiding.
Grey area? |
no, it's not part of her job description, it's not an advertised service, and that she's choosing who to ski with means it's not also open to the public. That's just skiing with friends. |
Boringly, i think you're right.
Mr Piehole (I hope you have the correct pie hole BTW), no it's not. Girl in question was paid fairly for described, contracted and marketed duties (cooking and tidying) which were performed, all legit.
Should she then choose to enjoy herself skiing with guests for no remuneration of any kind, that's entirely her, err, affair..
If you were correct, the entire chalet holiday business would be about to collapse in an oligarch-like suit-fest of the most depraved iniquity.
And the Haute (and not so haute) Savoie bed post polishing business would be on the edge of a deep and enduring recession.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Sorry all, the most appalling thread drift.
Back on track.
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under a new name, Doesn't it depend - if chalet girl is genuinely free to be going back to bed or off to be gnarly with her real mates but chooses to hang out with guests there is no real problem, although no doubt "showing the guests a good time" would "increase the number of tips she takes" to strain Mr Piehole's metaphorr.
If however it's implicit in the employment that staff will make efforts to be as sociable as possible with guests and it is understood that this make extend to skiing with them then the grey area is pretty wide. The tipping situation also contributes to the grey area if tips form a material part of overall remuneration.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| skir67 wrote: |
As I mentioned earlier in this thread I am already experiencing this phenomenon in this country. L1's are being given work I would have previously got because they are cheaper to employ. It's a purely accountancy driven attitude to the ski schools business and will just lead to lower customer return levels in the longer term imo.
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Really? What's the realisitic UK specific customer return rate in lessons beyond the initial "learn to ski" phase? I don't see many of the people I know who ski (outside of s/hs) rushing to dryslopes or indoor for improver lessons, and many people think I'm nuts for even going to a slope for a personal tuneup/ fun occasionally.
The problem all instructors have is that beyond the first week or so their services are a discretionary purchase, and there is only a very small part of the potential market that wants or even recognises the need for their higher level services. Maybe it's not quite like riding a bike but there aren't many professional cycling coaches making a living compared to the number of cyclists out there.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
I don't see many of the people I know who ski (outside of s/hs) rushing to dryslopes or indoor for improver lessons, and many people think I'm nuts for even going to a slope for a personal tuneup/ fun occasionally.
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That's the point I was trying to make, above. I'm a fairly competent skier, probably the best of the circle of friends I regularly ski with. However, I know how much better I'd need to be, to be anywhere near good, and I like to improve and have lessons. My friends think it's fairly strange, on the whole. "But you can already ski, why do you have lessons?" is not uncommon. Interestingly my immediate family - one of whom skis exceptionally well - would all like to continue to have instruction and are restricted only by time and money (quite big restrictions, so they are not providing a strong demand for expensive instructor-time).
It seems to me (though I have no hard evidence) that French holiday skiers are more likely to join a ski group when they are on holiday than are most British skiers. I wonder if that impression is correct and if so, why it is?
Maybe because they can't get "free" ski guiding they have to pay for it? 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| fatbob wrote: |
Really? What's the realisitic UK specific customer return rate in lessons beyond the initial "learn to ski" phase? I don't see many of the people I know who ski (outside of s/hs) rushing to dryslopes or indoor for improver lessons, and many people think I'm nuts for even going to a slope for a personal tuneup/ fun occasionally.
The problem all instructors have is that beyond the first week or so their services are a discretionary purchase, and there is only a very small part of the potential market that wants or even recognises the need for their higher level services. Maybe it's not quite like riding a bike but there aren't many professional cycling coaches making a living compared to the number of cyclists out there. |
Exactly right, so all the more need for the instruction bit of the ski industry to sell the benefits of good coaching rather than trying to squash competition and innovation.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| fatbob wrote: |
Really? What's the realisitic UK specific customer return rate in lessons beyond the initial "learn to ski" phase? I don't see many of the people I know who ski (outside of s/hs) rushing to dryslopes or indoor for improver lessons, and many people think I'm nuts for even going to a slope for a personal tuneup/ fun occasionally.
The problem all instructors have is that beyond the first week or so their services are a discretionary purchase, and there is only a very small part of the potential market that wants or even recognises the need for their higher level services. Maybe it's not quite like riding a bike but there aren't many professional cycling coaches making a living compared to the number of cyclists out there. |
Exactly right, so all the more need for the instruction bit of the ski industry to sell the benefits of good coaching rather than trying to squash competition and innovation. |
Absolutely we have to provide as many good reasons for people to return and they won't if they feel that what they got as a beginner at best just fulfilled their basic requirements and no more.
There is a balance to be found here. At one end of the spectrum we have france and the eurotest and at the other completely unqualifieds teaching. What is needed lies somewhere in between.
The situation fatbob describes is the status quo and we need to change that and it is a bit of a chicken and egg situation. But is positive change going to happen by employing low qualified/ low experienced teachers? Or paying instructors next to nothing for experience and qualifications that have taken them many years and probably 10's of thousands of pounds to gain?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| skir67 wrote: |
| But is positive change going to happen by employing low qualified/ low experienced teachers? Or paying instructors next to nothing for experience and qualifications that have taken them many years and probably 10's of thousands of pounds to gain? |
Surely what's needed is to offer a range of services which are so compelling that more people want to pay to ski with, be guided by, be coached by snowports professionals?
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Wed 21-11-12 15:31; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skir67, if there were genuine competition between ski schools I wouldn't agree that prices would be only slightly lower, esp if you look at what Brit ski schools in France charge. Of course the average rate to instructors would fall. That's to the good of the paying public. There should be no artificial constraint just for the benefit of ski instructors who want to make a living from something many will do for little to nothing, I'm afraid. What you say about the CdF thing is dead right of course. Once again I'm afraid it's down to the paying public to educate themselves and know what they are paying for. BASI could set up and advertise a website informing interested members of the public who buy ski lessons on holiday and at home what the undoubted differences between the levels are but for ski schools/senior instructors to restrict their employment of staff to a certain level, whether over or under qualified, isn't good for customers.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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^ Rob - seeing as your seem to be a BASI L2 who runs a part time ski school (or "ski club") in a French ski resort I can see why you have such vested interest in the ski hosting topic. I would be nervous also about who they may go after next.....
You are right to comment that the ET is perhaps unfair and desgined to limit the number of full cert instructors, of all nationality. However that doesnt automatically make all ESF members poor instructors (i.e 95% of French ski instructors!)
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Wed 21-11-12 16:16; edited 2 times in total
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| However that doesnt automatically mean all ESF members poor instructors (i.e 95% of French ski instructors!) |
No, as I said earlier (in this thread or the other one on the same kind of issue) I know some guys who work for ESF schools and I rate them extremely highly and I'm very happy to recommend them. Some of the ESF guys I see around Les Arcs, particularly those working with the faster kids' groups also seem to doing a great job. But overall I can only speak of my personal experience, from my own lessons with ESF, 1st hand reports from people I know, etc and I wish it were more positive, but unfortunately it's not. I therefore can't, with any sincerity, recommend the ESF school in Arc 1800, especially if people are signing up for group lessons when it is a bit of pot luck as to who you will get.
Can you balance my negative impression of ESF lessons with some more positive ones? It gives me absolutely no pleasure to hear purely negative stories about the ESF.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Ok, lets start near the top.
If it's part of your job description (written or verbal) you are undertaking an activity professionally and the only people under French law who can teach, guide, animate etc. are Ski Instructors or Mountain Guides with the right paperwork, period.
I didn't say what I think would be better but that is the law. Chances of it changing - even with lot sof lobbying - ZERO!
Yes British skiers love their ski hosting but they also love something for nothing - as do the TO's. So it's nice but naughty.
So really there is no point in complaining about it.
European law: There is more and more consensus on this and there is a move by the European Commission under the free movement of professionals to regularise standards exactly where they are now with only ISTD having free movement as an independent professional (See the BASI conditions and scope of qualifications paper). This is supported by France and the other main Alpine Nations an external test will be the Eurotest and the European Off Piste exams. The pilot scheme runs this winter.
In response to Sud and Livetoski this is the response to the written Dutch question.
1. Article 132 (1) of the VAT directive(1) provides for some VAT exemptions for certain activities in the public interest, including, under certain conditions, sport or physical education. The Commission is not aware of specific tax benefits that would be offered by France solely to the ESF, and not to similar foreign businesses.
2. Articles 7 (4) and 14 of Directive 2005/36/EC(2) on recognition of professional qualifications allows Member States to apply compensation measures, such as aptitude tests, under certain conditions. With a Commission decision of 2000 France was granted a derogation to require applicants who are seeking to have ski instructor's qualifications recognised for the purpose of establishing themselves or providing a temporary service in France, and whose training displays substantial differences from that required in France, to undergo an aptitude test. Similar derogations have been granted to Austria, Italy and Germany. The aptitude test applied in France as a compensation measure, the ‘Eurotest’, was agreed upon in 2000 by professional associations of ski instructors from a number of Member States including those mentioned above. This agreement sets out the specific technical requirements, knowledge and skills necessary for passing the test. The Commission is therefore aware of the ‘Eurotest.’
In 2000, the Commission adopted decisions under the previous Directive 92/51/EEC(3) granting derogations to four Member States to require applicants to undergo an aptitude test for a number of sports professions, including ski instructors. These decisions are however still valid, as indicated in the Commission's report(4) of 22 October 2010 on the transposition and implementation of the Professional Qualifications Directive.
3 and 4. The practice of a remunerated activity under a professional title is covered within the scope of the internal market freedoms. However, Member States may apply justified restrictions to protect overriding public interests, such as security of service recipients in the mountains, within the limits of proportionality. Specifically, Article 7(4) of the Professional Qualifications Directive allows Member States to require a prior check of the professional qualifications of service providers in order to avoid serious damage to the health or safety of service recipients. Under such conditions, Member States may apply restrictions to remunerated professional activities, irrespective of further distinctions as to the type and scope of activity.
In other words no tax advantages that others can't get (and certain ESI's do), plus the derogation means that to impose aptitude tests to obtain equivalent qualifications is legal.
So it's all legal under European law.
Spud, If you can find the other law about being able to host if paid for before I should be very grateful to have it.
Regarding the chalet girl - not part of her job description and unpaid so cool.
Regarding CDF status it is the ski schools who do most of the training of the stagiaires in preparation for their central exams and this has to be paid for in instructors wages to train them. So they work at the same basic rate as anyone else but pay a bigger percentage to the ski school, they still get about €25 an hour at the least. Profit for the ski school not really.
Ski67, yes I agree it seems a waste of money and qualification when you can't use it, but if your circumstances allow, try USA, Canada, Austria , Switzerland etc. You will find something Ireally do wish you the best.
If everyone regardless of qualification were allowed to work rates would drop sure but would standards and safety not everyone is as morally upright as we are on this forum. It would be a disaster for both skiers and the ski industry.
Competition in France is actually pretty genuine it's just the entry conditions to the job that are tough.
And as for Les Ward not just a role model - a legend!
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Saint, Many thanks for that post.... appreciated.
As for...Quote...
'Spud, If you can find the other law about being able to host if paid for before I should be very grateful to have it. '
Unfortunately I can't find anything. I was only aware that there was a law from the post in Pisthores.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| However that doesnt automatically mean all ESF members poor instructors (i.e 95% of French ski instructors!) |
No, as I said earlier (in this thread or the other one on the same kind of issue) I know some guys who work for ESF schools and I rate them extremely highly and I'm very happy to recommend them. Some of the ESF guys I see around Les Arcs, particularly those working with the faster kids' groups also seem to doing a great job. But overall I can only speak of my personal experience, from my own lessons with ESF, 1st hand reports from people I know, etc and I wish it were more positive, but unfortunately it's not. I therefore can't, with any sincerity, recommend the ESF school in Arc 1800, especially if people are signing up for group lessons when it is a bit of pot luck as to who you will get.
Can you balance my negative impression of ESF lessons with some more positive ones? It gives me absolutely no pleasure to hear purely negative stories about the ESF. |
Rob - I've been following this discussion here and on Facebook and I share your views about where the instruction/guiding/hosting situation needs to be.
I had the impression that the ESF had upped their game somewhat over the last few years since the market was opened up a bit (ESI, New Generation etc) - although I have nothing to counter your observations on ESF in Arc 1800.
Anyway my experience of an ESF instructor in La Rosiere, Christmas 2009:-
Three of us booked a private lesson together, the instructor asked us what we wanted out of it, had us ski a bit for him and off we went.
We wanted to ski steeper runs with better technique and more confidence and he tailored the lesson accordingly.
Learned some new stuff, did several exercises/drills and we got a lot out of it. He cut the lesson short because the weather really closed in but gave us another 40 minutes a couple of days later - no extra cost. A very positive experience, nice guy.
That holiday was with Ski Olympic btw and their presence in La Ros meant that they offered 2 or 3 ski hosts per day to cover different abilities. Didn't use the service myself but the young adults/teenagers in our party did and had a great time - it would be a real shame to see the end of this sort of service and I don't see the ESF getting any benefit from it.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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agw, good report. I've heard positive things about the ESF in La Ros, so that just proves it can be done. Also good that the ski hosting service in La Ros was popula. A regular member of the forum was a ski host in La Ros for a couple of years, proving it is a popular feature for some people.
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Well now, just goes to show doesn't it.....
The Director at La Rosiere is a Brit!
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You know it makes sense.
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shep, not sure why you're puzzled. I have had ski lessons in which I've learnt a lot about skiing (from rob@rar amongst others) and others from which I've probably learnt more French than skiing. All part of life's rich tapestry and at least the latter were very cheap. I've also had lessons where I've learnt a lot of skiing AND a fair bit of French.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| agw, good report. I've heard positive things about the ESF in La Ros, so that just proves it can be done. Also good that the ski hosting service in La Ros was popular. A regular member of the forum was a ski host in La Ros for a couple of years, proving it is a popular feature for some people. |
My opinions on providing hosting has been stated in other thread and most of that is covered by earlier posters (only just got onto this thread - big read).
I would like to know what Simon's (ESF La Ros) take is on this. I worked with him for two seasons as a ski host and we got on great, at no point have we (been the ski hosts) been questioned on the service or our methods.
When we booked guests into the ESF for lessons, of piste or other formal requirements the ESF was very welcoming. By that I mean it was a two way street - I did give them extra customers by gentle persuasion of guest who needed some extra advice.
As to the point brought up again about how only trained persons can tell if a person is happy on a slope or not. This is crap, we all do it weather its with family or off the lift watching people pass underneath, after skiing for a few years you can tell if someone is capable and enjoying the skiing.
This not a skill about teaching which I agree is best left to the trained experts.
As to the OP this comes as no surprise to me after the events of last season, I think the chalet business is in for a tough (legal wise) couple of years in France.
| Saint wrote: |
Well now, just goes to show doesn't it.....
The Director at La Rosiere is a Brit! |
Yes and a good guy. Just think about how hard it is for a Brit to get to that level in the ESF. I have a lot of respect for Simon.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Dwarf Vader, thanks, good post. That's how it should work IMO. Hosts provide a service which guests appreciate, but doesn't include teaching. Host provides recommendations to local ski school if guest wants (or is gently persuaded about the need for) lessons. Everyone is happy.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Question for Rob@rar
How do 'inside out ski' provide lessons in France using BASI L2 & L3 instructors without full equivalence?
Is there some kind of work around that allows them to operate independently that could perhaps be applied to the ski hosting scenario ?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Haggis_Trap, They don't provide lessons they operate a club which makes a strictly limited number of trips per year AIUI. Much like a dry slope race club might.
I guess Crystal could get all guests to join the Crystal Ski Club and have rotating UK based club coaches travelling from the UK with each group of guests but might be expensive.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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So 'Guiding', 'Hosting' or 'Coaching' under the banner of a club is different to the laws that are stopping a TO host?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| fatbob wrote: |
Haggis_Trap, They don't provide lessons they operate a club which makes a strictly limited number of trips per year AIUI. Much like a dry slope race club might.
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I'm sorry, but I don't agree, Inside Out is a lesson provider, call it what you like "coaching" if you prefer, But I'd prefer the word instruction. To my mind coaching is provided to a performer who is already at a high level, whilst Inside Out dont provide beginner lessons, they do from basic intermediate standard, hardly coaching in the true spirit and meaning of the term.
It's a for profit business. I see no resemblance whatsoever to a local race club night.
Inside Out do provide a good product that suits their clients needs and I'd be happy to recommend Rob or Scott to anyone in the Snowcentre should they wish for that type of lesson format.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| spud wrote: |
| So 'Guiding', 'Hosting' or 'Coaching' under the banner of a club is different to the laws that are stopping a TO host? |
Not if the guide, coach or host is being paid.
It is a similar situation for people who have qualified with a Sports Science masters in France. They can be paid to coach for most activities but skiing and climbing are specifically excluded.
The Simon Butler case on Bonneville was quite interesting. As the poster above states the Eurotest is only needed where the training is substantially different from that provided in the host country. In SB's case the prosecutor was unable to show to the satisfaction of the court how the BASI training minus Eurotest differed in substance from the French ENSA training and the charge of instructing without being properly qualified was rejected by the court.
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| spud wrote: |
There is a really good debate going on FB as well through Planetski.
Konrad Bartelski has some interesting points... |
Can you paraphrase or link to this? I'd be interested to read it
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| davidof wrote: |
| spud wrote: |
| So 'Guiding', 'Hosting' or 'Coaching' under the banner of a club is different to the laws that are stopping a TO host? |
Not if the guide, coach or host is being paid.
It is a similar situation for people who have qualified with a Sports Science masters in France. They can be paid to coach for most activities but skiing and climbing are specifically excluded.
The Simon Butler case on Bonneville was quite interesting. As the poster above states the Eurotest is only needed where the training is substantially different from that provided in the host country. In SB's case the prosecutor was unable to show to the satisfaction of the court how the BASI training minus Eurotest differed in substance from the French ENSA training and the charge of instructing without being properly qualified was rejected by the court. |
You've lost me here. The coaches don't get paid in a club situation or they do as it comes out of Club membership fees or the price of week away rtraining?
Surely a TO host doesn't get paid seperately. It's all covered in their monthly wage. Usually Transfers, Chalet help, Ski manager/host?
Surely it all comes under the same banner?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'd just like to reinforce the point Davidof made. Payment in skiing terms is a real no no. So if Inside Out Ski were to be controlled they may have a very hard time showing they are unpaid volunteers. As is exactly the case in the French FFS club system. Please note all I'm not saying they don't do a good job it's just the situation here in France.
Simon Butler's case was perhaps a case of prosecution lawyers not getting it right rather than anything else. I am not sure if there will be further prosecutions coming after a control by the sports ministry this year. We will have to see.
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I'd just like to reinforce the point Davidof made. Payment in skiing terms is a real no no. So if Inside Out Ski were to be controlled they may have a very hard time showing they are unpaid volunteers. As is exactly the case in the French FFS club system. Please note all I'm not saying they don't do a good job it's just the situation here in France.
Simon Butler's case was perhaps a case of prosecution lawyers not getting it right rather than anything else. I am not sure if there will be further prosecutions coming after a control by the sports ministry this year. We will have to see.
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FAQ
Nearly put me off going again 
. . . for those instructors 
