 Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
Frankly, if rutline skiing is no longer a prerequisite to L3 I'd be happy because that's the only thing preventing me from persuing L3. If you have more up to date knowledge than me then please share it.
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Raceplate, in the BASI pre-course material for L3 (available on the website) it says this for L3 bumps:-
Ski a fall line descent, at or above the minimum speed on a red steepness slope.
Perform a variety of lines and tactical approaches.
Use effective posture and balance
It doesn't show them skiing rut-lines on that video above, but last time I was in Tignes I saw another L3 training course out skiing a rut-line a lot, but that might have been just for extra practice perhaps? I don't know.
I'm sure someone who has recently passed or attempted a L3 course will be able to tell you for sure.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Oh, just seen that the L2 info I posted above is dated June 2011. The L3 info is Aug 2010.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Raceplate wrote: |
| Curtains wrote: |
Dont shoot me if I should know this but what type of run are the bumps assessed on, if its similar to the tunnel then i'll have no flow and do two hills and then stop to let my knees recover from the metre drop but if its on a blue slope i'll love it.  |
From memory, bumps are normally assessed on 25-30 degrees. Think soft part of a red run rather than blue. I could tell you exactly where to practice in Meribel but it may not help! |
The 25-30 degrees (or 20-25) rings a bell with me too but not sure why. Incidentally where would you say in Meribel then out of interest?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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As a rough rule of thumb - L2 - blue run bumps, L3 - red run bumps. No you do not have to ski the rut line for L3, indeed as VolklAttivaS5, quotes above, you need to be able to show you can ski a variety of lines. I've seen people who can hammer the rut line (because they've practised!!), but are unable to vary their line.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Remember Wayne's first law of ski school dynamics; If you don’t know who the class duffer is by the 3rd day, it’s you.
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I don't think you can claim that one Wayne 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Wayne wrote: |
| anarchicsaltire wrote: |
| Mounta1nGoat and I are booked for July. Not sure if we're ready or if I will survive but it should be an interesting week. |
Good luck with your L1 - hope it all goes well.
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We had 2 hours on Saturday afternoon running through Central Theme. Both have a great attitude, show aptitude and willingness to change their skiing as necessary. They're easily at entry level for the L1 and if they can keep up the same level of improvement they showed on Saturday, we only did 2 hours, they've got 5 days. then things look good for L1.
Good luck to them both and anybody else going for it.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| kitenski wrote: |
| But in all seriousness, I am considering doing L1 in a fridge, with a view to doing L2 sometime after I get my hours in. Is there a way to get assessed as to wether that is realistic or not, prior to going into my L1??? |
A BASI Trainer or an experienced BASI instructor should be able to give you a good idea of the approximate level your skiing is at in terms of the assessment criteria for BASI qualifications. They can look at stance, balance, movement patterns, timing, coordination, ability to blend different steering mechanisms and your adaptability when asked to do something new. In an ideal world you would do this in a range of terrain, but if you are trying to fit this process in with the rest of your life an indoor slope will allow a Trainer to give you good feedback on where you're at.
Don't forget that BASI courses are about developing your skiing and your teaching skills as well as being assessed against the criteria. So any up front assessment, whether that's formal or informal, is only going to give an indication of whether you are well below, close to, or well above the standard. The only way to know for certain is to actually do the course. I think BASI courses are the best value for money training you can buy. There's no doubt it's an expensive process, but I've not found any ski school that provides a full week of focused on & off snow training with a BASI Trainer or equivalent instructor for £380 (£535 for a two week course). Plus you get to ski in a group of strong skiers at a broadly similar level who are usually equally keen to develop their skiing, so lots of peer group support and enjoyment.
Wise words from Wayne.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Raceplate wrote: |
| I don't believe I've been critical of either BASI or their Trainers per se. |
I think these comments say different.
| Raceplate wrote: |
| My issue here is that I think BASI are selling false dreams. I fail to see how BASI can possibly be properly assessing people's ski ability in a fridge. |
| Raceplate wrote: |
| I can't help thinking that this new L1 Pass system will encourage way too many medium/good skiers to turn up to L2 expecting to pass only to fail miserably and wonder: a) what they did wrong b) were they misled on their own ability? c) was it an unrealistic waste of money? |
| Raceplate wrote: |
| you have to expect BASI trainers to 'big up' your chances of passing L2; it's their job. |
| Raceplate wrote: |
| It's in the BASI trainer's interest to 'big up' their chances of passing L2. They get paid for holding the original course and the re-assessment when the pupil fails. And a specialist training course prior to their re-assessment |
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| kitenski wrote: |
| But in all seriousness, I am considering doing L1 in a fridge, with a view to doing L2 sometime after I get my hours in. Is there a way to get assessed as to wether that is realistic or not, prior to going into my L1??? |
Go and talk to people at Castleford. Apart from those on the front desk the staff rotate between instructing, minding the lifts and equipment hire so you will get sensible pointers from anyone.
Lions run an instructor training session but I think it is mainly aimed at the UKSS qualifications, there are people with BASI qualifications taking part and running it though.
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You know it makes sense.
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I'm booked to do my level 1 in the fridge at Hemel in October, so I'm really enjoying this thread, keep it coming.
As regards the jump from BASI 1 to BASI 2 I am under no illusions about the huge ramp up needed in performance. I'd like to think that I am capable of getting to BASI 2 standard before my knees give up on me completely, but I also know that I'm a slow learner. I get there eventually but I'm not a natural, I have to wait until my body can do what it needs to do instinctively. This will involve lots of skiing and lots of further training. I plan to enjoy the journey though.
One thing I don't understand in the above discussion is the phrase 'variables' or variable terrain. Is this different from bump skiing? Is it a catch all phrase to cover all terrain that is not a piste? Powder? Crud? some clarification please.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Spud9 wrote: |
| One thing I don't understand in the above discussion is the phrase 'variables' or variable terrain. Is this different from bump skiing? Is it a catch all phrase to cover all terrain that is not a piste? Powder? Crud? some clarification please. |
Yes, "variables" is used to describe unpisted slopes. Can be powder, crud, crust, choppy loose snow, elephant snot, basically anything which hasn't been pisted. Last BASI course I did the variables were partly skied on an unpisted piste.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| beanie1 wrote: |
| As a rough rule of thumb - L2 - blue run bumps, L3 - red run bumps. No you do not have to ski the rut line for L3, indeed as VolklAttivaS5, quotes above, you need to be able to show you can ski a variety of lines. I've seen people who can hammer the rut line (because they've practised!!), but are unable to vary their line. |
| VolklAttivaS5 wrote: |
| Quote: |
Frankly, if rutline skiing is no longer a prerequisite to L3 I'd be happy because that's the only thing preventing me from persuing L3. If you have more up to date knowledge than me then please share it.
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Raceplate, in the BASI pre-course material for L3 (available on the website) it says this for L3 bumps:-
Ski a fall line descent, at or above the minimum speed on a red steepness slope.
Perform a variety of lines and tactical approaches.
Use effective posture and balance
It doesn't show them skiing rut-lines on that video above, but last time I was in Tignes I saw another L3 training course out skiing a rut-line a lot, but that might have been just for extra practice perhaps? I don't know.
I'm sure someone who has recently passed or attempted a L3 course will be able to tell you for sure. |
beanie1, in reality, doesn't the 'fall line descent' mentioned above often become a rut line descent? When I took my L2 in Zermatt the L3 groups spent an entire afternoon specifically making a rut line for themselves. It's possible this was only for practice and not for assessment (I didn't see their assessment so I can't say for sure either way) but doesn't that illustrate that rut line skiing is still very much in the L3 Trainers' minds?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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kitenski, if you are local to Castleford then why not arrange to shadow some lessons, and while you are there an instructor can assess you, bear in mind that the instructors are mainly L1/L2 standard so may not be able to give you the in depth analysis that a ISTD/Trainer would. PM me if you are interested or would like more details.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Tue 28-06-11 11:43; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
When I took my L2 in Zermatt the L3 groups spent an entire afternoon specifically making a rut line for themselves.
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How long ago was this?
If they need to make bumps for L3 then the candidates will all be asked to ski in the same place to bump it up - however, in my experience they will be told not to make nasty rut lines!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Spud9 wrote: |
| One thing I don't understand in the above discussion is the phrase 'variables' or variable terrain. Is this different from bump skiing? Is it a catch all phrase to cover all terrain that is not a piste? Powder? Crud? some clarification please. |
Yes, "variables" is used to describe unpisted slopes. Can be powder, crud, crust, choppy loose snow, elephant snot, basically anything which hasn't been pisted. Last BASI course I did the variables were partly skied on an unpisted piste. |
Thanks Rob. Not sure what elephant snot is (assuming it's not, you know, the actual nasal emissions of pachyderms), but i get the general idea. So the nearest I'm going to get to variable terrain in the Hemel fridge is the stuff that forms tight in against the left hand (looking up) lift towards the end of the day.
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| Raceplate wrote: |
| I'll buy you a beer one day and we'll call it quits, eh? |
Always nice to talk about skiing over a cold beer 
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| Spud9 wrote: |
| Not sure what elephant snot is |
Snow so wet and sticky you can imagine the sound of Dumbo sneezing.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| beanie1 wrote: |
| Quote: |
When I took my L2 in Zermatt the L3 groups spent an entire afternoon specifically making a rut line for themselves.
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How long ago was this?
If they need to make bumps for L3 then the candidates will all be asked to ski in the same place to bump it up - however, in my experience they will be told not to make nasty rut lines! |
2005, late season with a lack of new snow so yes they were deliberately bumping it up but I can assure you they very definitely made a rut line and spent a lot of time skiing it.
That's my reason for asking how much the philosophy has changed. I had several conversations with Trainers that season which suggested BASI was trying to move away from rut line skiing as the most common assessment of ability to ski bumps at a high level but I didn't actually see any evidence of it (at that time).
If you are confirming that they have moved on to a more balanced bump skiing assessment then great.
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Raceplate, on my L3 tech we did a range of bumps, blue zipper lines fast, red icy horrible, black irregular ones, and in between tree variable type stuff that was lumpy, Trainer was keen to emphasize there isnt a single prescriptive X degree rutline mentality anymore mainly cause clients dont ski rut lines and and they want to ensure you are able to ski all that is thrown at you.
That said there does seem to be certain runs in resorts that are used at each level to keep things consistent.
My recollection is at L2 you need to do a fall line decent no traversing or wandering around but slow controlled speed is fine. At L3 i remember being told to go faster all the time and that i should be at a jogging pace and when training with L4 candidates a running pace bordering on being out of control seemed more like it. Also need to be able to control yourself in different ways, Scraping, checking, rounder line, direct line, etc
just remembered i had explained this a couple years ago http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=48649&start=40#1151223
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
Raceplate, on my L3 tech we did a range of bumps, blue zipper lines fast, red icy horrible, black irregular ones, and in between tree variable type stuff that was lumpy, Trainer was keen to emphasize there isnt a single prescriptive X degree rutline mentality anymore mainly cause clients dont ski rut lines and and they want to ensure you are able to ski all that is thrown at you.
That said there does seem to be certain runs in resorts that are used at each level to keep things consistent.
just remembered i had explained this a couple years ago http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=48649&start=40#1151223 |
Thanks, good thread, useful info and well done on your pass. The bump/rut line skiing issue just keeps coming up, doesn't it? If you don't mind me asking, you said you were the oldest in your group - how old were you at the time?
When I passed L2 there was an L3 Tech group of (IIRC) 13 who had just completed a well known season long ISIA training course. Only 2 (might have been 3 but whatever, a very low %) passed. LOT of resentment in the pub and the reason why I'm very wary of putting myself forward unless I'm 110% sure that I'm very clear on what's required and around the level in all disciplines.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Raceplate wrote: |
From what I saw of your profile you have the luxury of being way too young and talented. But I have 25 years experience in retail sales - which one of us is the better communicator? For sure you would do far better demonstrations than I could ever dream of but can you explain the theory in a way they understand?
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I'd take jjc over you in a trice... for a start he has to know it in order to do it... then he has to know it in order to teach it - both at ISTD level as he was assessed as ISTD in technical and teaching ability! You are an unknown quality - we know you can sell ice to eskimos... we have no idea of your understanding or ability to teach skiing....
Simple choice really - knowing neither of you - I'd pick jjc...
(Also jjc comes with good feedback )
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| Raceplate wrote: |
| kitenski, ... but if it's North America ask for a PSIA/CSIA 4 to assess you - it will still be relevant). |
Well that could be tricky.... you see there is no PSIA 4... even I know that and I have no sales experience
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You know it makes sense.
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| Spud9 wrote: |
| ...Not sure what elephant snot is ... |
Snow where there is visible moisture - so it actually looks like elephant snot (it gets a more clearish but "thick" look to it and feels "thick" underfoot as it is so wet)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Raceplate, i was 46 or so and had spent a few months in the gym getting ready and it was tough both mentally and physically.. In terms of GAP and other season courses i am very much with offpisteskiing's comments on people not taking enough time to balance instructing and training between courses. seems a lot of people get their L1 and then rock up to their L2 unprepared and a lot of L2's just go straight into the L3 tech first "cause if i cant pass that no point doing anything else" and are surprised when they fail. If they had taken Mountain safety, coaching, actually done their 200 hours of teaching (dont get me started on that) trained on their weak areas instead of just free skiing with their mates then they may be better prepared. Why dont you do a few other modules, at a minimum it will improve your skiing and understanding of where you are at in the journey.
but we digress from an L1 thread... the L1 is a good entry level qualification and suits its purpose well...
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'm no racer - I'm a disabled skier, who does some recreational racing as one means to improve her technique...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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VolklAttivaS5, My L3 bumps were assessed mainly off piste underneath the Tommousse chair in Val d'Isere (on left as riding on chair at the top). Not the top 50 meters or so we started from where they widen out.
Speed, steering, control and stay in the rut line. Three passed out of eight and they were the three best bumps skiers.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Dunk, Was that recent ?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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In my experience failures at L1 & L2 are on piste performance, at L3 it seems to be bumps & variables.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Dunk wrote: |
VolklAttivaS5, My L3 bumps were assessed mainly off piste underneath the Tommousse chair in Val d'Isere (on left as riding on chair at the top). Not the top 50 meters or so we started from where they widen out.
Speed, steering, control and stay in the rut line. Three passed out of eight and they were the three best bumps skiers. |
Yeah that tallies as I've seen L3 groups going from there.
| Spyderman wrote: |
| In my experience failures at L1 & L2 are on piste performance, at L3 it seems to be bumps & variables. |
I think it must vary because this season just gone, I know of two people (on separate courses) who failed L2, both of them in the bumps. One of the courses was a gap course, think it was 2 that failed from memory, both on L2 bumps. The other course was 4 fails, 3 in bumps and 1 on long turns/carving.
The season before I know of another gap course student who again passed everything else, but failed in just bumps.
What you said about L3 and L4 I have heard before though as being a constant theme.
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| Spyderman wrote: |
| In my experience failures at L1 & L2 are on piste performance, at L3 it seems to be bumps & variables. |
I'd go along with that. In my L2 group, all the failures (half the group) were on piste performance.
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slikedges, were they on shorts, longs, or both?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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AndAnotherThing.., Jan 2010. we had done lots of other bumps, but this was where we had to perform. In those bumps was the place we were assessed.
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VolklAttivaS5, yes, one or t'other
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FAQ
Maybe we should just discuss things at the level of indignant headlines and be done with it.
I think I've lived in the Middle East too long. I'm so used to people saying, "yes sir, no sir" all the time I've forgotten what it's like to argue (sorry, debate) with a bunch of Brits 
(assuming you all are, of course).
