 Poster: A snowHead
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leedsunited, the guideline is that it is good practice that the visit SHOULD always be made - it does not say that the other alternatives shoould be exhausted first, the alternatives are in the event that it is not possible to to make an inspection trip. If something were to go wrong - I would expect a teacher to have a pretty good reason as to why an exploratory visit was not necessary and to be able to demonsrate that they had undertaken the alternatives.
I thought that this forum was here to discuss the general practice and not SE in particular - but on that point you appear to be taking the position of believing everything that is said in the SE brochure as being true and what actually happened. I cannot prove a negative but in the case I know about it most specifically did not happen - and I think that there were others on the SE thread who made the same point in their specific cases. Before throwing allegations of bribery around I personally would want to have stronger evidence than Reynard's brochure.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Stephen101, what is your view on the policy of Skibound referred to in my earlier post today whereby they seem not to offer inspection trips but instead they carry out safety audits completed by qualified staff, the audits cover the main components such as accommodation, transportation and après ski activities etc for schools to include within their particular Risk Assessment ?
Likewise Samberg Sue used to inspect resorts and hand over her reports to her Team Leaders to use.
In each case above the Team Leader would not have had first hand experience of the resort for the first trip there.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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achilles, I thought that certain ranks in the British Army were unattainable unless you were an officer ? hence my point that he went as high as he could and that there was no higher rank for him to attain. It is something that I know little about but something one of our other friends mentioned, not my army mate himself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_(rank)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rayscoops, William Roberston. Ahem. May I suggest you start up a thread in Apres if you want to go deeper - we'll have the rest of the thread's posters on our backs for going wildly off topic, otherwise.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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rayscoops,
I would have thought that Skibound might fall into the category of it not being possible to carry out an inspection trip as the company concerned does not offer them and therefore you would need to pretty thorough in following the alternative procedures. It is not really for us define what is and isn't best practice - when the Department of Education has done it already for teachers - I know which teachers should take as more persuasive, and it would be silly to argue otherwise. You may wish to argue for a change in public policy in this area but in teh meantime it isn't really fair to criticise teachers for following it. You may not think much of the NAtional Curriculum but if teachers were to start teaching something else you could imagine the outcry from those who disagreed with the alternative.
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achilles, so William Robertson became an officer after he attained the Sergeant Major rank. On the basis my mate did not apply to be an officer or sit the exams it seems that he did indeed reach as high as he could go, but there was the officer route for him to follow.
Last question - How would a RSM fit in with respect to seniority compared with officers ? the private to RSM ranks seemed to be set aside from the officer ranks.
thread drift - dontcha love it
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Of course a school tour could have an audit written by a competent source, but that would prevent the "greedy" organiser getting a jolly! So is less likely to happen if the group organiser is left out of the "caribean inspection trip"!  I wonder if anyone that has not got a freebie will defend this action? As said earlier the inspection trip whether to the ski resort or the sun resort will still be paid for by the groups parents paying above the odds for the product!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Stephen101, ... ahem ... acadamies are being set up to teach what the want and not follow the national curriculum because 'teacher knows best'.
Of course if any TO does not offer an inspection trip then the schools, I presume, would still carry out their own inspection at their own expense because it is an essential part of the RA. Or maybe not 
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noskitrip,
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I met a school governor who told me their school "lets the teachers get on with it"
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Hmmm! a question of competence of the organisation there The GB could find themselves in deepest darkest doggy do with an approach like that
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Stephen101, nope you phone, book, pay and do the inspection those costs would then be re-embursed or not in the accounting for the trip and the package cost for the kids reflects this.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rayscoops, private to WO 1st class (or RSM) - non-commissioned ranks. 2nd lieutenant to Field Marshal - commissioned ranks.
An RSM would salute a 2nd lieutenant - acknowledging the Queen's commission. But the 2nd lieutenant had better respect the RSM big time. Not only is the RSM paid more, he has a heck of a lot of experience, and will have earned the respect of non-commissioned and commissioned ranks. He has earned the right to be heard at a senior level.
Enough on this here, I think
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| Quote: |
acadamies are being set up to teach what the want and not follow the national curriculum because 'teacher knows best'.
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Assuming this is true, you will of course appreciate that these schools will continue to take exams based on the National Curriculum, so freedom to exercise the "knowing best" you construe will be rather circumscribed.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Should also not forget that some local authorities have more specific guidelines for teachers to follow than those issued by the Dept of Education e.g. In Oldham (see pg 37 of the previously linked 180 page tome)
For all hazardous activities, it is highly desirable for the leader to be familiar with the area to be
used. If for some reason a pre-visit has not been possible, Heads / EVCs must consider whether
sufficient information has been obtained for an effective risk assessment to be carried out, and
whether the Group Leader has sufficient knowledge and experience to operate safely. This will also
be scrutinised as part of the LA Approval System.
I read this as saying if you have not done a pre-visit then your risk assessment will be crawled all over and my guess is if the Group Leader hasn't been to the resort before then the trip wouldn't be authorised.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| kevindonkleywood wrote: |
noskitrip,
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I met a school governor who told me their school "lets the teachers get on with it"
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Hmmm! a question of competence of the organisation there The GB could find themselves in deepest darkest doggy do with an approach like that |
It is worse than that- the governor is question is liable and answerable. She was pretty scared that things needed changing fast. Of course there could be a bit of hide behind the organsation but governors don't get an easy ride. This is more of a problem today as more schools are divorced from the LEA and other regulation structures. Private schools can contract with even less checks if they want.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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For some reason the link doesn't work directly - just Google Skibound inspection visits - they were even looking to recruit someone to administer inspection visits in case your're looking for employment 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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noskitrip, The sad thing is that Governors are giving their time freely and often have been 'pushed' into becomming a governor in the first place. When you actually consider just what you are liable for its a wonder that anyone does it. Unless the BG is a competent organisation then individual governors are unlikely to be properly chose, trained or developed to become competent themselves
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I do not seem to be able to see any up front information about inspection trips under Party Leader of Risk Assessments on their website. Maybe you have stumbled on to some out of date page or attachment/link under the international section.
I am surprised if they do not offer the inspection trips because they would be at a distinct disadvantage without such a sweetner
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Stephen101 wrote: |
For all hazardous activities, it is highly desirable for the leader to be familiar with the area to be
used. |
Ski resorts are not hazardous places. Skiing can be hazardous, but so can a school rugby team or cricket team away game.
Would you visit an away game pitch to write a risk assessment, prior to a fixture? Would you tell the team members' parents that they needed to cough up £10 for each away game for you to do this inspection?
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bar shaker,
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Ski resorts are not hazardous places. Skiing can be hazardous, but so can a school rugby team or cricket team away game.
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That may be your view - but it is not the view of Oldham LEA from whose document I was quoting (see link earlier) - they specifically say that skiing is a hazardous activity in their view - go and look through the 180 pages if you don't believe me.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Without commenting on what else you saybar shaker, there is a glaring illogicality in what you say, is there not?
Ski resorts are not hazardous places, even though skiing, the activity which goes on in ski resorts can be hazardous? Hmmm. How do you separate the hazardous activity from the place it has to take place in?
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| bar shaker wrote: |
| ....Ski resorts are not hazardous places..... |
Really?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Stephen101, Still a bribe
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Are teacher's trips to inspect ski resorts 'inducements'? that was the question posed.
After careful reading of this thread, the answer has to be YES
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| achilles wrote: |
| bar shaker wrote: |
| ....Ski resorts are not hazardous places..... |
Really? |
Another Really?
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You know it makes sense.
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leedsunited, Stll a troll
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Stephen101, I think not. I believe that trolling involves some degree of dissimulation. I think he is exactly what he appears to be.
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Poster: A snowHead
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sunnbuel, Of course it is an "inducement"! What is interesting is the people that post on this topic to defend the bribe, err sorry "inducement" and seem not to participate in the main body of this forum!
It is wrong for the teacher/guardian/parent to take the bribe and chose a company that charges above the going rate so that the "inspection trip"/bribe can come out of the parents of the children that participate wages!! On the other hand, if the teacher/guardian/parent goes on the trip and pays for it in full then fine. After all it will still be a holiday that we all have to pay for and we enjoy! I doubt that the teacher/guardian/parent will be writing the report of the audit for 8 hours a day for the entire week! This is only aplicacable if they go to the ski resort and not to the caribean! IT IS A KICKBACK, whichever way these members are trying to justify it! But yet this drivel is going on and on and on, mainly by someone that may be trying to justify a kickback in a previous life, or by someone that is possibly angry that THEY have been overcharged for their little ones holiday just because of an inducement/bribe offered and accepted by such a teacher/guardian/parent!
It is good thread though and am enjoying the cowdoo!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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There is indeed a lot of BS here.
AFAIK it was ONLY SE that was/has offered free weeks trips/heli skiing etc, and as covered in many posts yes that is innapropriate.
However most RA trips are 2-3 days door to door giving at best 1-2 days in the destination. Just about enough time for a ski leader to do what the LEA expects them to do.
Roy Hockley, And I have yet to see a poster with your viewpoint who has actualy got any experience of taking school trips. If your happy [b}leading[/b] a group of school kids in a resort you don know then best of luck to you.
Do you think its a good idea for a teacher to lead a group of mixed ability kids down a run they have never skiied before?
The cost of the inspection trips will come out of the cost of the parents pockets whatever happens beacuse the school will need to make the trip cost neutral to the school budget either the TO charges a mark up or the school adds the cost to the monies owing from the parents. Sadly school skiing trips are generally an expensive way of getting your kids skiing.
I would be very amused to see your employer suggest that you pay your own money to travel and work overtime and then tell you that they are taking it out of your vacation allowance. I suspect I know what your answer would be.
Sadly less and less schools are prepared to offer skiing trips which i personally think is a shame as for many people that is their first introduction to snowsports.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Skiing can be hazardous but a ski resort in no more hazardous than any other place. What you all seem to miss is that the list of hazzardous activities on that Oldham council website includes things like potholing, open water swimming, diving, rock climbing etc. to name a few - all very much the sort of activity that you would need to see the terrain first to be able to risk assess the activity with respect to mixed abaility school children. The need for a visit to risk assess skiing seems more related to administrative type issue of the hotel etc rather than the activity itself and I do not think the fact that it has been slipped at the end of a list in any way assists in trying to justify the need (rather than preference) for an inspection visit.
After all, does the teacher inspecting the resort actually ski every piste top check out whetehr they are suitable
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rayscoops, does kind of make you wonder why we get so many 'you participate in high risk sports' questionaires to fill in for students,.......
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After all, does the teacher inspecting the resort actually ski every piste top check out whetehr they are suitable
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YES Because being Ski Leaders ASL or ASCL trained, they do just that........Lead the groups of kids round the mountain
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Stephen101, And You are still Richard Cranium
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rayscoops,
What you miss is that Oldham identify skiing as a hazardous activity - regardless of how dangerous or not we regard skiing it isn't us that the teachers will refer to when making their decision. If I was a teacher in Oldham the steer to undertake an inspection visit is pretty strong. YOu and others asked for evidence that the Dept of Education and local LEAs encoraged inspection visits for school trips - I my view that evidence has been delivered.
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kevindonkleywood, so are you telling me that in the one or two days that a teacher visits some where like VT that they will ski every piste as well as all the other stuff that they are supposed to do ?
Does your school trip risk assessment include children taking off back packs on chair lifts ?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| Skiing can be hazardous but a ski resort in no more hazardous than any other place. |
The same illogicality leading to an absurd inference.
| rayscoops wrote: |
What you all seem to miss is that the list of hazzardous activities on that Oldham council website includes things like potholing...... |
So I take it from your reasoning that potholes are no more hazardous than any other place?
| rayscoops wrote: |
| ....all very much the sort of activity that you would need to see the terrain first to be able to risk assess the activity with respect to mixed abaility school children. |
That sounds a very good description of skiing.
It is this kind of sloppy reasoning that has put me off bothering to contribute much more to these interminable threads
| leedsunited wrote: |
| Stephen101, And You are still Richard Cranium |
And the descents into abuse. 
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Sun 29-05-11 15:29; edited 1 time in total
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leedsunited, Have you taken your serious allegations to the Police yet?
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FAQ
