 Poster: A snowHead
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| Stephen101 wrote: |
leedsunited,
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No i am not happy to accuse anybody of something that is not proven, with regards to bribes, i would call what you are referring to as "inducements" all of which should not be part of the buying process / decision, the words used previously to justify these inducements are "inspection trips" again i do not disagree that they should happen i just do not agree that the TO should provide them, the LEA / schools should fund them and this way there is no conflict of interest when it comes to deciding which TO the school books with.
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On 14 April
Great Post and i still stand by the term bribe, some may call it inducement, sweetner or freebie but in my mind it is a bribe and in accepting whatever you wish to call it you put yourself and your school in a compromising positionb, who pays for it, did it come from SE profits or was it chiseled from the funds already provided by schools?
Are there two leedunited - one who is French with a sense of humour and isn't a teacher basher and another who....... We need to be told |
Of course it is inducement.
Here is a simple acid test...
If Skiing Europe had not offered these generous trips, does anyone believe they would have walked away with so much parents' money?
If the answer is no, they must have got the business because the decision making teachers thoroughly researched the company and decided they were the best for them to send many tens of thousands of parents money to.
It is as simple as that. So which is it?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Above post split from the Skiing Europe thread to this - since the discussion on teachers' 'inducements' is a distraction from the main thrust of the other thread.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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achilles, thank you for the split
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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bar shaker, I guess these kind of "preview" trips are the norm? Fancy doing the research for me?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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It would appear so! Obviously SE's business approach was greed and it would seem that they entangled others because of their "somfing for nuffing" approach! Like in any business if you offer any kind of "inducement" or "kick back" the end user always pays as the "gift" was included in the end base line price. The greed of the people that took the "inspection visit" was envisaged by Reynard!
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From Interski's "A Teacher’s Guide to Snowsports":
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| Most tour operators offer 'inspection visits' to resorts, and some LEAs now insist upon this. |
So are Interski and "most tour operators" "inducing" people too, and taking advantage of their "greed", and are "some LEAs" complicit in this?
I suspect some people might be better actually stepping back and taking account of the facts ... although I know that's less 'fun' than going for the jugular and trying to scapegoat targets perceived as being 'easy' like teachers! 
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Shimmy Alcott, they are the norm and are offered by all the major operators offering school trips of any kind. They are not always free and any costs are then sometimes laid off against the trip you book. I took part in many for my authority when I was teaching - it usually meant I was away from home at Christmas as this was the time the operators had free space. I always wrote a report and made that report available to any teachers my PE advisor or the company rep put in contact with me. I was not the only one doing this either.
Hundreds of thousands of kids benefit from trips away from school with teachers and their friends. The value of residential experiences of any kind is well documented. I taught in an inner city school where no-one went skiing with their families. The kids and/or their parents had 18 months to two years to pay for each trip. It was doable. When the companies became too greedy, we organised everything ourselves. All our students skied all year round and took part in the All England Schools competition when it was in our neck of the woods, which it was a lot of the time, at Gloucester.
Yes there are idiots who should not be allowed to escort the kids across the playground - I've met them and so probably have a lot of you. I have in the past reported them to their headteachers and local authorities with the support of the resort reps when we felt that the children were at risk. We also stepped in to help out leaders who were in over their heads on occasions.
It is very easily to mock, snipe and accuse teachers of incompetence, but how many of you put in hours unpaid voluntary work week in week. Don't say running your own business is like that because it isn't, you own your businesses and get the rewards for all your hard work in the returns your company makes. Running a ski trip properly and the vast majority are run exceptionally well takes time planning and commitment both in advance and while you are away with the group. The rewards are the life long love of the mountains and the sport you instil in the people who take part. I'll take the grin splitting a kids face as they complete their first descent of a mountain trail over anything as more than enough reward. I am still contacted by former students via Facebook and Friends Reunited who all remember their trip or trips as being the highlight of their time at school and how it gave them self-confidence because they were achieving something and doing it well. Several went on to work their way up through the instructor system as well. Others just realised that they were capable of more than they thought.
So go on, knock away at the teachers - it seems to be the favourite occupation of the nation these days. I'm just grateful to be out of it and feel sorry for the poor büggers that have to take all the crap the media and the government chuck at them these days. I'm surprised that there is anyone wanting to do the job these days as it is a thankless task constantly being blamed for the failure of society as a whole.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Samerberg Sue, The best placard at a Strike demo I have ever seen 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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It goes on in all other walks of commercial and public life so why not group ski trips? Inducement, incentive, familiarisation visit, product testing etc etc call 'em what you will. In certain industries they certainly go beyond corporate hospitality and are just bungs by another route, ie a lavish trip you wouldn't or couldn't pay for yourself. Frankly, if it's legal it's ok but where's the line? Luckily, on July 1 there will be a test of whether something steps over the line from being a fam trip / corporate hospitality into bribery... http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/23/contents - some companies have already reduced orders for brown paper envelopes.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Samerberg Sue wrote: |
| they are the norm and are offered by all the major operators offering school trips of any kind. |
a two or three day trip by the specific person orgainising the trip in school time without family to review a new resort/hotel is acceptable.
So Sue ... is this a normal inspection trip or an inducement trip -
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| These special weeks are an opportunity for teachers and their families and/or friends to be able to enjoy a week of skiing without the responsibility of looking after young people. It is also a great opportunity for us to have the pleasure of meeting you in a relaxed and informal ski setting, and a chance for us to introduce you, perhaps, to some of the greatest ski resorts in the world. It is also a chance to welcome back some of our old friends who have been skiing with us for many years. We do not attempt in these weeks to take you to any unrealistic locations. We invite you to come to the same pensions or hotels where we will be welcoming the groups in other weeks ... where there is a party in excess of 90, the Party Leader is offered the possibility to come on one of our heli-skiing preview weeks, subject to certain conditions, which we will be happy to notify you of in this situation. |
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Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Wed 25-05-11 21:03; edited 2 times in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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can we change the heading to 'Are SE/CR teacher's trips to inspect ski resorts 'inducements'?, because it is obvious that not all teachers trips are inducements and that there is a difference between how some companies administer this issue and how other do so.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I have to ask if operators and resorts need frequent inspections by every LEA. Just get a central list of providers and inspect every couple of years. No need for everyone to do their own thing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Just waved daughter off on a school trip to the beach at Hengistbury Head, I wonder if the teacher has done an inspection trip? 
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tiffin, quite, we have addressed this in the other thread in that perhaps a centralised 'inspection data base' needs be developed and administered by an authorised inspection body.
If we can clean up MP's expenses surely we can sort this out 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| can we change the heading to 'Are SE/CR teacher's trips to inspect ski resorts 'inducements'?, because it is obvious that not all teachers trips are inducements and that there is a difference between how some companies administer this issue and how other do so. |
bar shaker can change the thread title if he/she wishes. Personally, I am content with the title, since it allows for general discussion, which would crop up anyway.
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Boredsurfing, I would expect that they would have done to do the risk assesment that should have been in place before the trip was sanctioned by the head.
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Samerberg Sue,
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| They are not always free and any costs are then sometimes laid off against the trip you book. |
Yes they are free as the parents are paying therefore not you, when you have your meetings with the parents do you tell them that their childs holiday is going to cost an extra X so that you can go on an "inspection trip" to Y. Well i dont know what world you are living in but the parents i know would shoot you down in flames on that one.
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| I took part in many for my authority when I was teaching - it usually meant I was away from home at Christmas as this was the time the operators had free space. I always wrote a report and made that report available to any teachers my PE advisor or the company rep put in contact with me. I was not the only one doing this either. |
You could bring tears to a glass eye, go away and give yourself a huge pat on the back. You didnt have to go, these trips are not a legal requirement, all i can find are the words "advisable", this is a lot diferent to must be done. I would love to be away at skiing at Christmas however the cost of doing so at this peak time prohibits it.
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| but how many of you put in hours unpaid voluntary work week in week. Don't say running your own business is like that because it isn't, you own your businesses and get the rewards for all your hard work in the returns your company makes |
How many of us earn on average £35K a year, have 12 weeks paid holiday and a gold plated pension scheme that only some can dream of but have assisted through our own taxes help pay for.
For those that do not know how generous it is then please see the following:
"Adrian Shandley, who runs independent adviser Premier Wealth Management, in Southport, Lancashire, says: ‘In the past, many public sector workers earned less than their private sector counterparts but were compensated by a gilt-edged pension scheme.
‘However, under the last Government, salaries have grown so that many public workers have better pay than the private sector and a more generous pension to boot.’
What is the current deal?
There are two versions of the pension – one for those who joined before January 2007 and one for those who started after. Both promise a pension linked to final salary, with 1/80th of this salary paid for each year of membership.
In both cases, members pay 6.4 per cent of salary towards their pension. Employers pay just over 14 per cent.
In the old scheme, teachers can retire on full pension from 60 and they also qualify for a lump sum of three times their annual pension at retirement. In the new scheme, the retirement age is 65 and lump sums come at the expense of a portion of the annual pension.
Shandley says: ‘On top of this basic pension is a valuable death-in-service package, a widow or widower’s pension, and an income for life if you cease work through ill health. The package is generous.’
What changes are being proposed?
There are no final plans on the table yet, but the Independent Public Service Pensions Commission, headed by former Labour Pensions Minister Lord Hutton, set down broad principles in March to reform all public sector pensions.
This would see pensions linked to earnings averaged over the whole career, not the final salary. Employees will have to pay in more, with the Government already planning to make them pay, on average, an extra three per cent of salary.
Teachers, like other public servants, will also have to wait longer to receive their pensions. Hutton says their retirement age should come in line with the State pension age, already set to rise to 68.
The Government has accepted these principles and will make detailed recommendations for reforms of the various pension schemes in the autumn.
The NUT says that a 50-year-old experienced classroom teacher on salary grade three – £36,756 a year – who is planning to retire at 60 would lose about £1,300 a year from their pension and £4,000 from their tax-free lump sum should the reforms go through."
Again i will ask the question how many LEA's / Schools pay for these "inducement" whoops sorry "inspection trips themselves?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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leedsunited, I wonder how long it would take you to crawl out from under your slimy rock. Feeling a bit sluggish today are we?
Stop banging your nasty snide drum and pour your scorn and vitriol on others more deserving, such as MPs who lie and steal major sums of money, bankers who are paid bonuses (inducements or bribes?) for losing millions on speculation.
You are a broken record!
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leedsunited, You clearly read the daily mail and believe whats written in there....BTW I am not a teacher and work in the private sector
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Samerberg Sue, et al,
seems to me thatleedsunited, wants it both ways:
Why didn't you do due diligence? - you are useless specimen who is not fit to look after children.
You went and did due diligence? - you are a scrounger and a sponger who is not fit to look after children.
Which is it to be?
C'mon cut them some slack FFS. I'm not a teacher, but I'm damn glad there are people who are.
Now, nothing wrong with a little common sense and scrutiny being introduced a la pharmas, (although I still gasp at the way they seem to have avoided all sense of the recession... but I digress) and the idea of a central system seems to be a good one.
Mind you, if anyone can point me in the direction of the job application "Wanted: independent skier to inspect resort and hotels around the calendar, around the world on behalf of a variety of group organisers, and write it up as a trip report afterwards." I will be first in the queue... 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I suppose £35000 a year seems a lot to a taxi-driver.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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it sounds like a pretty standard (not overly generous) final salary scheme to me. it actually sounds funded which is better than some public sector schemes!
interesting perspective from well-known financial genius, Adrian Shandley
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Poster: A snowHead
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leedsunited, I'm an ex-teacher because I was injured during my service and had to retire on grounds of ill-health. I continued to help my students even when I was retired because I cared about them - that's the same for many of my colleagues I am not unique nor do I claim to be. I still teach here in Germany on a voluntary basis because I love teaching and it seems I'm relatively good at it.
You really are a nasty slimy piece of humanity aren't you. You have so much bile and cynicism about all and sundry, except of course yourself - you are the knight in shining armour - the only person capable of seeing that teachers are a rotten lot simply because they teach!
I never said I was a saint - you did.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Put the handbags down people
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Samerberg Sue,
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You really are a nasty slimy piece of humanity aren't you.
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If you wish to take it to a personal level i can go there with the best of them but i prefer to keep it civil.
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You have so much bile and cynicism about all and sundry,
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Not sure what you are getting at here, perhaps you could enlighten me on who the "all & sundry" are.
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the only person capable of seeing that teachers are a rotten lot simply because they teach!
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I have never said i think teachers are a rotten lot, as i have previously stated i have many friends in the teaching proffesion just that they never take the "holier than thou" attitude that i have seen displayed in some posts on this forum.
All i have questioned in a public forum is the ethical stance of inspection trips being used as inducement, you can quote chapter on chapter about the private sector but that is not the issue here, goverment guidelines of which i would like to think cover people in teaching employment are quite clear with regards to accepting gifts - you dont do it and if you do so you are introducing unethical favour to both the decision making and buying process.
Again i will say that IMO if an inspection trip is neccesary and so fundamental to the whole trip why oh why are the schools and LEA's not paying for it out of their own funds. As yet i have not seen one single person say that their School or LEA has done so. And whilst we wait for an answer to that one can i pose another, one of my friends who is a teacher and is taking 40 kids on a cricket tour to South Africa, in his own time i may add, has not carried out an inspection trip, now i think that JoBurg is somewhat more of a risk than a trip to the alps. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
Again i will say that IMO if an inspection trip is neccesary and so fundamental to the whole trip why oh why are the schools and LEA's not paying for it out of their own funds. As yet i have not seen one single person say that their School or LEA has done so.
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So you would rather taxpayers' money was diverted from education to pay for inspection trips? You also say that the trips are paid for by the kids' parents so they aren't free etc - I think you'll find if the teachers don't take the trip it won't be discounted from the overall cost anyway.
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goverment guidelines of which i would like to think cover people in teaching employment are quite clear with regards to accepting gifts - you dont do it and if you do so you are introducing unethical favour to both the decision making and buying process.
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Oh crap, my class used to buy our teacher a box of chocolates at christmas each year, we must have been bribing them for good marks, how dare the teacher accept
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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For what it's worth my experiences are as follows. I took my first ever skiing trip leading a group of schoolkids in the 70's. The sum total of our skiing experience was one boy who had skied into his instructor in the first lesson and broken his own leg! There was no inspection visit and we had a great time. I took one more trip a few years later, again without incident (if you don't count losing a grandmother in Venice en-route!), but decided there was too much risk of things going wrong. I continued to ski and take school trips after that, including kayaking, walking and climbing, but the thought of spending what should be a skiing week sorting out accidents on the pistes and making hospital visits was too much too bear.
Teachers who continue to take skiing trips have my respect and admiration. I have no doubt whatsoever that they enhance education. Samerberg Sue may be a little starry eyed, but she is basically correct. I have to say I find leedsunited's posts disappointing. I don't know what bad experiences he has had with teachers, but to be so negative about folk who offer to take your kids away (there is no compulsion to go and they are, after all, only satisfying a demand) for what should be a great experience does him little credit.
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Diary of an Inspection trip for School Skiing holiday to Alp Du Never Never Land
Day 1 - Got up early, chauffer picked me up at 10am, imagine my surprise when I saw that I had a 42 seater luxury coach all to myself, checked drivers licence and insurance, did quick kick of tyres, all looked in order.
On route to ferry port driver going a little to fast and hogging middle lane, gave him a good ticking off, he apologised and advised me that it won’t happen on the actual school trip.
Plenty of time to kill so sat in all seats to ensure seat belts worked and all where comfortable, do not want 40 children winging about sore bottoms before we even get to South Mimms.
Arrival at South Mimms for schedule comfort break, not very happy with parking as due to fact I was the only one on the bus could not use parent and child spaces, never mind little ones will be fine as I did not notice any high kerbs or dangerous foliage on walk from bus park to the main building.
Noted fruit machine arcade on left as entering, must write to services manager and ask him to shield this from view when we actually take the trip, do not want the children exposed to the vices of gambling. Ditto bars on Ferry.
Arrived at Dover, Customs & Excise did thorough job, they really are nice chaps, commented that I looked half my age in comparison to my passport photo.
Embarked onto ferry, driver very happy, he explained that he is normally power washing the regurgitated contents of 22 bacon sandwiches and 80 liters of coke from the centre aisle at this point.
Had a sneaky little nip of Teachers and soda in the executive lounge and then got head down for a couple of hours, get it in now as won’t be able to on actual trip.
Day 2 - Arrived Calais, those French customs boys are not as nice as our chappies, took me into little office and spoke to me in a foreign language, must ensure Jim gets pass from wife for actual trip as he is only one who speaks the lingo.
Bus driver very cautious on French roads, he explained that the Gendarmerie are not very lenient when they catch you driving over the speed limit, on the wrong side of the road and also doing 22 hours solid, gave him another stern ticking off, note to self, ensure we have different driver on actual trip.
Arrived in resort after long sleep, as I say get it in now won’t have time on actual trip.
Hotel was easy to find, it was a huge colonial type castle and lit up like Times square, not sure hotel manager will be to happy with 40 kids running riot, oh forgot they are not staying here, will see their grotto tomorrow.
Check in very smooth, and even better as they did not take an impression of my credit card, don’t worry about the bill said the lovely Polish boy behind the counter.
All my bags taken to my room and unpacked, bus driver bedded down in staff quarters. Ordered Filet Mignon from room service, emptied contents of mini bar into spare suitcase and snuggled down to episode of friends on tv, Cushdy.
Day 3 – Up early as breakfast is not served after 11am, lovely food and cheeky little waiter kept giving me the eye, note to self those nice customs boys in Dover have got a right competitor on their hands here.
Breakfast over was met by a man in shades at reception, said he was from the tour operator we would be using, I politely told him that we had not made a decision on who we were going to use at this stage, then packed him off to bar to bring me a nice class of the finest Crystal – get it in now won’t be able to on actual trip.
Man in shades took me in his car for a drive around the resort, noted that all was in order, roads have signage, all traffic lights where working, so tickety boo cross that one of the list.
However did note that one of the kerbs on corner outside the Michelin star restaurant was a little high, note to self, beware of that this evening whilst enlightening from taxi and also after meal, always a bit whoozy after two bottles of Chateau Neuf Du Pape .
Ok MR Shades, show me the skiing area, we took a drive past the main lift hills looked steepy and lots of wires with chairs hanging from them so all signed of there then. Note to self, check that snow should be white not green.
Drove past actual accommodation, could see from the road that there were curtains on the windows, fire escapes and a minimum five lever mortice lock on the front door so all looks good and another tick in the box, happy days!
Back to hotel for lovely spa and pampering, fill your boots I say.
Day 4 And on our way home, bus driver not very happy with turning circle in front of Hotel, had another word and told him not to worry as we won’t be staying here on the actual trip and if he drives home like he drove here he won’t coming anyway.
Journey home pretty uneventful other than they did not have Este Lauder moisturiser in ferry shop, note to self use different ferry company for actual trip.
Finally got home at 12.30am neighbors not happy as bus driver had reversing bleepers on as he backed out of the close, although another tick in the transport box – working reversing bleepers.
Emptied suitcase into drinks cabinet and headed off to bed, can never sleep well on balmy nights in August. Oh and report to write in the morning about skiing, hope internet is working, great thing that Google!
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They probably are for some, they are a requiremement for others.
As a teacher I've never taken one.
We use reputable companies who should ensure the suitability of everything. They provide one or two reps to go along. (IME though they have usually never been to the resort before either, and don't speak the lingo, but I'd rather they were there none the less to deal with complaints etc...)
I really hope that the fall out from the skiing europe fiasco, like the fallout from the DDAH fiasco, doesn't impact on the opportunities available to children to experience adventurous activities with their school mates.
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leedsunited, you make as much sense as your footy team....
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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speedy, And coming from Bristol you would know.
In the words of Sir Ken "Say it as you see tord lad" and "no such thing as a free lunch" oh and back on the question of how many LEA's / schools have paid for their own "inducement" trips........................................................................................................ "Oh its all gone quiet over there"
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kevindonkleywood, You may not agree with my opinion but you should be ashamed of yourself, people gloating over football disasters.:
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FAQ
any gift of any sort over the value £2.50 is grounds for investigation and has been for several years now, certianally the quality of the pens and 'toys' is not what it once was 
"sorry buddy its a new world out there" Lehmans went bust and so did RBS past performance is no guarantee. You have to do your homework - a teacher should know that.
