 Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
Research from Aviva showed you were twice as likely to make a theft claim if you have a keyless vehicle than a non-keyless one
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But perhaps that's because most of those big flash cars are now keyless?
I kept my Thule ski holder bars on top of my Zafira for ages, not as a theft deterrent, but because the fixings were so knackered I thought if I took them off I'd never get them on again.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Again, correlation is not causation. The Aviva stat tells you nothing about causation. Higher theft rates apply to cars that are dark-coloured. It doesn’t mean that the car’s colour causes more theft. What causes the theft is the model: that it’s a BMW X5, Range Rover, Discovery, Audi S/RS etc.
All the Aviva stat quoted proves is that they have a segment of the cars they insure that have higher-than-average rates of theft, and that these cars are predominantly keyless entry. Which if they are premium models will be a standard feature, where cheaper models that are less prone to theft won’t have keyless.
You can argue that keyless entry isn’t a feature that’s worth the premium, certainly. But you can’t argue that it increases the probability of theft. Because there’s no proven causal relationship.
One validation of this is whether insurers give you a discount for your car cover if you have a conventional key. Like they give me a discount if I park my car in a locked garage overnight. As far as I’m aware, you don’t even get asked whether the car is keyless or not. But I certainly do get asked if it’s parked in a garage, on a drive, or on the road. Which implies that they don’t see keyless as a factor.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Wed 1-02-23 23:48; edited 7 times in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I’ve never understood why anyone would want to own an X5, let alone go to the trouble of stealing one.
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| JohnS4 wrote: |
@LaForet, It's a bit more than hype.
Research from Aviva showed you were twice as likely to make a theft claim if you have a keyless vehicle than a non-keyless one and it's the most common break in method now.
Car theft stats fell regularly till 2014 because of better car security, but they have risen in subsequent years.
And for what ? It wasn't exactly a hassle having to press a button on the keyfob to open the door, it's a convenience that I'd rather do without. |
Is that because there are far more cars with keyless entry or newer models or an actual percentage of both types ?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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robs1 Yes, you've got the point I'm making exactly. The principle that 'correlation is not causation' trips-up even very experienced data analysts. Theft rates correlate with keyless entry. They also correlate with dark-coloured vehicles. And cruise control. But the correlation doesn't prove there's a causal link - the keyless entry, dark colour and cruise control don't cause the thefts. The cars get stolen whether or not they're keyless, dark-coloured or have cruise control.
There's also a correlation with thefts in terms of the model of vehicle. It's very strong, but in the absence of any other evidence you can't assume cars are stolen because they are a particular model. What tells you that is the police and insurance industry evidence of criminal gangs that steal cars to order, based primarily on the model specified by the 'customer'. And that the demand is for exactly those models that get stolen most.
That's why I get frustrated because the whole media furore around keyless entry is meaningless, in terms of it being a feature that encourages theft. It doesn't. What encourages theft is if you park your car outside on your drive every night (x3 more likely to be stolen versus parking it in a garage overnight) and even more significantly, if it's one the the premium SUVs or Audi S/RS models.*
There are all sorts of options that will reduce the probability of theft. The most obvious is to park your car in a garage overnight if you have one (which is why most insurers give you a discount for this). But as various people have mentioned there are other options as well. But opting for a conventional key over keyless is not one of them. And what all this hype does is focus people away from uprating their home security, which would not only discourage break-ins for keys but be valuable in reducing the chance of burglary as well.
(*i do have to caveat here: unfortunately, the police theft stats are now an outsourced subscription service, when once they were publicly available free of charge. Media companies will obviously be prepared to pay the subscription charges but I'm not that interested that I'll subscribe. So I haven't seen the stats for the last 4 years. But as far as I can see from media articles, while the relative rankings may have changed, the general trend is the same i.e. the top ten are still the premium SUVs and Audi S/RS models, plus the Fiesta.
@Red Len The SUVs are reported to be popular for 'export' to Eastern and Southern Europe, as they are a premier model which can still handle tracks and rougher roads. THis is what Iv'e read in the media - the police stats and reports I've seen don't discuss the destinations of stolen cars. Although they did mention that most stolen SUVs don't get recovered i.e. they're not taken for joyrides but are exported or re-worked into false identities.
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| LaForet wrote: |
robs1 Yes, you've got the point I'm making exactly. The principle that 'correlation is not causation' trips-up even very experienced data analysts. Theft rates correlate with keyless entry. They also correlate with dark-coloured vehicles. And cruise control. But the correlation doesn't prove there's a causal link - the keyless entry, dark colour and cruise control don't cause the thefts. The cars get stolen whether or not they're keyless, dark-coloured or have cruise control.
There's also a correlation with thefts in terms of the model of vehicle. It's very strong, but in the absence of any other evidence you can't assume cars are stolen because they are a particular model. What tells you that is the police and insurance industry evidence of criminal gangs that steal cars to order, based primarily on the model specified by the 'customer'. And that the demand is for exactly those models that get stolen most.
That's why I get frustrated because the whole media furore around keyless entry is meaningless, in terms of it being a feature that encourages theft. It doesn't. What encourages theft is if you park your car outside on your drive every night (x3 more likely to be stolen versus parking it in a garage overnight) and even more significantly, if it's one the the premium SUVs or Audi S/RS models.*
There are all sorts of options that will reduce the probability of theft. The most obvious is to park your car in a garage overnight if you have one (which is why most insurers give you a discount for this). But as various people have mentioned there are other options as well. But opting for a conventional key over keyless is not one of them. And what all this hype does is focus people away from uprating their home security, which would not only discourage break-ins for keys but be valuable in reducing the chance of burglary as well.
(*i do have to caveat here: unfortunately, the police theft stats are now an outsourced subscription service, when once they were publicly available free of charge. Media companies will obviously be prepared to pay the subscription charges but I'm not that interested that I'll subscribe. So I haven't seen the stats for the last 4 years. But as far as I can see from media articles, while the relative rankings may have changed, the general trend is the same i.e. the top ten are still the premium SUVs and Audi S/RS models, plus the Fiesta.
@Red Len The SUVs are reported to be popular for 'export' to Eastern and Southern Europe, as they are a premier model which can still handle tracks and rougher roads. THis is what Iv'e read in the media - the police stats and reports I've seen don't discuss the destinations of stolen cars. Although they did mention that most stolen SUVs don't get recovered i.e. they're not taken for joyrides but are exported or re-worked into false identities. |
The fact that correlation is not causation doesn't mean that it can't be causation too, or at least a significant factor. I agree that parking in a garage reduces your chance of theft, because it makes it harder to steal. Similarly disabling keyless access also makes it harder to steal, now the criminals have one fewer easy option to take your car. Sure they can take the car away on a trailer or break your door down to get the keys but criminals are like everyone else, they prefer to take the easy option.
In the same way they could break into your garage but it's easier to take a different car thats on the driveway, they can take a car with keyless access disabled but it's easier to find one that they can just drive off by picking up the key signal than go to all that hassle.
It doesn't really matter whether we agree on this anyway, you can do what you like and I'll take my own precautions. You seem keen on building security - would you use the same keyless system on your house where they could enter by picking up your house keyfob signal considering they could get in some other way if they really wanted to, or would you rather have physical locks that require a key ?
At least the discussion has highlighted the situation for anyone who wasn't aware of how this works and they can make their own decision.
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| JohnS4 wrote: |
| Similarly disabling keyless access also makes it harder to steal, now the criminals have one fewer easy option to take your car. Sure they can .. break your door down to get the keys but criminals are like everyone else, they prefer to take the easy option. |
By the time they've failed to clone the key they are already committed to the theft to the extent that the odds are high they will break in. Deterrents like bollards and Krooklocks or etched glass indicating a tracker are obvious to the criminal walking past, surveying the target. What they're not going to do is stand in the street with their laptop trying to see if your key is accessible. At the time they do that, their gang has already come together and the target is your car. They aren't going to call it a night and go home: there's £10-£20K of cash payment awaiting them which they'll lose if they do. So the bias is towards them pressing on to the next step, which is to break in.
| Quote: |
| The fact that correlation is not causation doesn't mean that it can't be causation too |
OK, so the cause is that the car is dark-coloured then? Or is the cause that it has cruise control? The point is that you have to prove causation. And there is absolutely no proof that keyless causes thefts.
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| JohnS4 wrote: |
| It doesn't really matter whether we agree on this anyway, you can do what you like and I'll take my own precautions. You seem keen on building security - would you use the same keyless system on your house where they could enter by picking up your house keyfob signal considering they could get in some other way if they really wanted to, or would you rather have physical locks that require a key ? |
Thats a good point and very well put.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'd say it's 'whataboutery'. What we started discussing was the popular media assertion that keyless car entry increases the probability of theft. What I've shown is that there's no evidence at all to show that it does. The theft stats don't show it and police analyses explicitly contradict the idea that keyless makes your car a greater target. OK, so then we moved on the the idea that thieves are deterred by being unable to clone a key once they've targeted your Range Rover or X5 for theft and are next to it in person. Is there any evidence for that? No.
I guess we're never going to agree. You think that there is a likelihood that a car gang will just give up if they can't clone your keys on the day and go home £10-£20K out of pocket. I think that given the prize, they won't, and the result will be worse: they will break in to get them.
In matters of security you almost always aim for a proportionate response to a threat. Based on the probability of it happening and the consequences. If you're worried about theft, then in decreasing order of proportinality, you'd first just not get a premium SUV. Then, whatever vehicle you do have, you garage it overnight. If you can't do that, you park it on the street, randomly. If you can't do that, you might install some physical deterrent like a bollard or Krooklock. And if you didn't want to do that, you'd make sure that your ground floor entrances were robust enough to prevent forced entry.
If it makes you feel better and sleep easier at night, then go for a car that has a conventional key. Or put your Keyless fob in a Faraday bag. But there's no evidence at all that this makes any difference, other than that it will force the criminals to break the door down.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Thu 2-02-23 17:12; edited 1 time in total
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@LaForet, ….that’s brought back memories. I had a lovely Mk2 Golf GTD and whilst we were away (skiing…) some idiot tried to steal it - usually they would have punched a screwdriver just a few mm back from the door handle and lifted the driver’s door tab (the standard way of doing it…witness all the common holes in Golfs of that vintage) but these comedians used a crowbar on the drivers’ door and then the rear passenger door….failing to get in, but wrecking two doors and damaging the body shell in the process…totally imbecilic. I think I would have preferred stolen/recovered to that…..The car was carefully restored back to original and continued to be both lovely and fast…..
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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You may wonder why I'm being so trenchant about this. Three weeks ago my sister-in-law had their front door forcibly attacked with crowbars to gain entry by a gang of three criminals. Fortunately, it's a modern door and pretty secure with a secure lock that can't be forced. The CCTV (clearly of itself no deterrent) showed they were trying to steal her Audi S4, parked outside on the drive. Whether they tried to clone the keys or not isn't clear, in any event, they didn't succeed or they didn't even try. So they moved on to the next step. They don't live in a high crime area. So apologies if this comes across as confrontational. Perhaps as you say it's best to leave it to others to make up their own mind. And happy to let you have the last word. And perhaps time anyway to move back to the original topic of winter tyres and chains .....
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Thu 2-02-23 17:54; edited 4 times in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| LaForet wrote: |
What I've shown is that there's no evidence at all to show that it does.
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You haven't shown anything, you've just stated your opinion which is different to mine
| LaForet wrote: |
police analyses explicitly contradict the idea that keyless makes your car a greater target.
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You haven't provided any evidence for this either
You can have the last say if you like, I've got nothing more to say after this. People here are intelligent enough to do their own reading and make their own decisions.
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Do I need chains to drive to Morzine in April in my Fiat Multipla? 
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Ozboy, the chains would be more desirable than the car so out them in a faraday cage….
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Ozboy wrote: |
| Do I need chains to drive to Morzine in April in my Fiat Multipla? |
Sorry to tell you this but no amount of gold/silver chains are going to make you look bling enough in a Fiat Multipla.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Ooooh ! You can never be too careful 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Righty ho, I started the car today and then put the keys outside the car. The car started to move OK, but I did get a message that the key was outside the car. Other than refusing to move (which may or may not be a good thing!) that seems sensible and safe.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I was thinking some of the comments here was a bit drastic along of the lines if you don't have winter tyres then don't drive to the alps in the winter..... Well I have done a U turn and fully agree with this. Some idiot (German plate merc) just about took me out while I was walking on the pavement. Absolutely shate myself .
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Our car will definitely drive with the keys outside the car. I know because my wife has driven the kids to school no problem but when she tried to start the car again to come home it gave a message if no key. When she phoned me I found the key on the kitchen counter.
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| WASHOUT wrote: |
| I was thinking some of the comments here was a bit drastic along of the lines if you don't have winter tyres then don't drive to the alps in the winter..... Well I have done a U turn and fully agree with this. Some idiot (German plate merc) just about took me out while I was walking on the pavement. Absolutely shate myself . |
A German plated car would have winter tyres - it's mandatory in Germany. (Or if you want to be really picky, 3PMSF tyres which may or may not be "full" winters.)
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Our Volvo refuses to go anywhere without the keys in the car (and quite close to the driver - in the boot isn't close enough). Seems strange that any car with keyless entry, doesn't do something similar?
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| Quote: |
A German plated car would have winter tyres
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We've already established that winter tyres don't make a car idiot-proof. Or even skid-proof.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@mgrolf, we have a Volvo. It won’t start if the key is not inside as as you say quite close. But it will drive once started if the key is not in the car.
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But it will drive once started if the key is not in the car.
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that does seem a bit of a design flaw - and what caught my niece out.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
But it will drive once started if the key is not in the car.
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that does seem a bit of a design flaw - and what caught my niece out. |
Imagine if you somehow contrived to achieve that on an overnight run through Europe  may not even know where the key was left behind.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| pam w wrote: |
| We've already established that winter tyres don't make a car idiot-proof. Or even skid-proof. |
Very true. Plenty of idiots driving cars with winter tyres. One or two of them active on this thread.
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I think you'll find that a keyless entry car running without the key after you've started it is a deliberate safety feature.
Because the key is not in a lock with a physical connection, it relies on the transponder signal for the immobiliser being transmitted from the key for the car to start. It will then send regular signals to confirm the key's continuing presence in the car which is why you get a warning if you then leave it behind.
However, if it was set up to cut out when it stops receiving signals because the key is out of range, then it would also cut out if the battery in the key died. This wouldn't just kill the engine, it would also remove servo power to the brakes and the power steering and possibly lock the steering column. All in all, good chance of being fatal at motorway speeds.
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You know it makes sense.
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My car will not drive if it detects the key is no longer in the vehicle. The motor will continue running, if it was running when the key left the vehicle. Not sure how the system handles loss of signal, say from a flat battery in the key fob, while en route. There is however a warning message if the key fob battery gets low.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| ulmerhutte wrote: |
| My car will not drive if it detects the key is no longer in the vehicle. The motor will continue running, if it was running when the key left the vehicle. Not sure how the system handles loss of signal, say from a flat battery in the key fob, while en route. There is however a warning message if the key fob battery gets low. |
I assume that is an auto, and the box is in park so it won't let you engage drive. What if it's already in drive? Say you left the key on the roof so it's close enough to let you start driving and it then falls off..?
I don't see how the car can prevent you driving if it's a manual with a manual handbrake and the motor continues running.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Thought it was R-Fid in key itself (like a ski pass or shop security tag) detection not driven from fob.
With a failed conventional key ignition barrel, the car can be started by turning the electrical switch when dismantled, but you still have to have the key within range of ecu detection to enable that type of system. The fob battery is irrelevant as I understand it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@mgrolf, mines a Volvo, 2019 V60. Not keyless entry in the strict sense but no key to put in the ignition
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@ski3, dunno, you might be right or different manufacturers might do things differently. Keyless Audis have a fully plastic valet key (with a transponder but no battery) that will start the car in the ignition slot but not if it's just in the car. I believe (but haven't tested) that if your fob battery is dead, the key will still work in the ignition slot the same way as the valet key does, but not otherwise. I think that would suggest that the fob battery amplifies the range of the RFID signal.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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BTW for anyone that's got one, plastic valet keys are another known (opportunistic) way for people to steal cars.
Audi have a convenient slot in the glovebox for the plastic valet key. It requires a second (transponder) section to be inserted in it for it to work. But the second part is usually in a pouch with the handbooks. You'd be (probably not) surprised how many people never remove it so all any thief has to do is break the passenger window and have a rummage around the glovebox, put them together and off he goes...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Raceplate wrote: |
| ulmerhutte wrote: |
| My car will not drive if it detects the key is no longer in the vehicle. The motor will continue running, if it was running when the key left the vehicle. Not sure how the system handles loss of signal, say from a flat battery in the key fob, while en route. There is however a warning message if the key fob battery gets low. |
I assume that is an auto, and the box is in park so it won't let you engage drive. What if it's already in drive? Say you left the key on the roof so it's close enough to let you start driving and it then falls off..?
I don't see how the car can prevent you driving if it's a manual with a manual handbrake and the motor continues running. |
It is an auto, but if you open the door with the motor running, it goes into park.
Not sure having the key on the roof would work as the car detects the key is outside even if standing next to the open door.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| ulmerhutte wrote: |
| It is an auto, but if you open the door with the motor running, it goes into park. |
That sounds like a new generation fully electronic auto box (with a selector dial?), it won't apply to a traditional one with a physical gear selector.
| ulmerhutte wrote: |
| Not sure having the key on the roof would work as the car detects the key is outside even if standing next to the open door. |
They are generally very sensitive but I'd be surprised if they're totally fool proof. I might do a little test....
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I tell you what's totally fool proof. Every car I've driven since 1963. Including my present one.
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| Raceplate wrote: |
| ulmerhutte wrote: |
| Not sure having the key on the roof would work as the car detects the key is outside even if standing next to the open door. |
They are generally very sensitive but I'd be surprised if they're totally fool proof. I might do a little test.... |
Yep, my car (tiptronic auto) will start with the key on the windshield. If I take it off, as if I'd flicked it off accidently with the wipers, it still allows me to select drive and pull away completely normally. I just get the "no key in car" warning. It's a deliberate safety feature.
For your car, the selection of park is obviously better to prevent problems but that's much newer technology.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Raceplate, I think the connection (or certainly through it) is commonly the instrument cluster on many of this era. If the engine unit is sold after breaking, it usually has to be accompanied by the ecu+instrument+key to allow the owner to even start that engine. Else you'd need to be deep into recoding with attendant security protocols to even get near it. That bit is reassuringly difficult I understand.
Whether that proximity to instrument cluster just under windscreen impacts it I'm not sure, audi often have principal ecu in plenum under wipers that's usually home to battery too.
"Comfort pack" control for door locks etc is often under passenger front carpet, but dont think it has radio comms, just hardwired.
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One problem situation with a non-mechanical key, whether fully keyless entry or conventional (i.e. once you open the car with the fob you don't need to put its key into the ignition), is this: You are late back home where your partner is waiting angrily for you because they're going out to an important meeting or event and you share the car. You barrel up and stop; they yank open the door with a "Where the **** have you been? You were meant to be here 40 minutes ago! Typical!"; The car is now in [P] because the driver's door was opened, (If the car is a manual you arrive late and stop, shift into neutral, but leave the engine running and get out with your key fob on you); you jump out, they jump in and drive off. You have your key in your pocket. They don't have the other key on them. They park the car at their destination in some dodgy multi-storey and turn the ignition off; Then get ready to lock the car - but they don't have their key, which is in on the hall table at home. They can't lock the car because they don't have the key. They can't start the car because they don't have the key. "Well goodness me, how inconvenient!" they say. They are in a pickle. The call you then get is not one you will welcome, because it will all be your fault.
The obvious approach in an auto would be for the car to refuse to go into [D] from [P] if the key isn't inside. Oddly, a lot of cars don't take this approach, for some reason. Perhaps there's a situation where it would be an issue. The usual feature is that the car will keep on running until they deliberately turn the ignition off. As @Raceplate suggests, if the car simply killed the ignition while it was on the move the results could be deadly - so that's not an option. The next best option is to display a message saying something like 'no key in car' and let them complete their journey. What would be logical is to not let them turn the ignition off until they confirmed they understand that if they do, they're stranded. From discussions on this I've seen on car owners' forums, that doesn't seem to happen - if you're lucky, you'll get the 'keys not in car' message, but not all cars even do that, apparently. And even if the message does appear, you have to (a) notice it and (b) understand the implications - in particular, that if you stop to sort it all out and turn off the ignition, you're stuffed.
Another option would be for the car to turn itself off if you step outside it. But this would be really inconvenient in many situations (like scraping the ice off the windows) and would mean you'd have to leave the keys in the car if you wanted to get out and leave the engine running, which would be great for carjackers, for example. So that's not really viable either. One upside of the above (run the engine until the ignition is explicitly turned off) approach is that if you get out or are pulled out of your car and someone jumps in and drives it off, the car will be immobilised as soon as they turn the ignition off if you still have the key on you.
Reading a very lengthy thread on this topic on a car owners' forum, the conclusion seems to be that there's no ideal technology or approach that will work best in all situations.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Thu 2-02-23 22:30; edited 5 times in total
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