 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| midgetbiker wrote: |
| under a new name wrote: |
| @zikomo, Hadn't realised it had been well studied at all. Interesting. |
Is it called 'risk compensation' or something like that? Well documented that increased (perceived or actual) safety/protective gear (helmets, body armour, seat belts, avi packs, etc etc) lead to increased risk taking. |
Yes , Uni of Bath conducted an experiment some years ago on helmet wearing.
Just found the link
https://www.bath.ac.uk/case-studies/helmet-wearing-increases-risk-taking-and-sensation-seeking/
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Mr.Egg wrote: |
| zzz wrote: |
| I blame the widespread use of helmets. A lack of peripheral hearing and more restricted vision, combined with a feeling of invincibility leads to reduced awareness and higher speeds and inevitably more accidents. |
I just blame cocks not abiding by the mountain rules |
+1
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @zikomo, this has been much debated and on any other thread I would be confident that @zzz had his tongue firmly in cheek ;- |
Just don’t get me started on full face skiing helmets 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@zzz, don’t they stop you getting covid? Or AIDS or something?
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@zzz, Must resist asking.....but it is sooooo hard!
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@Bones, Interestingly, other studies had shown the opposite - This particular study was looking into the effectiveness of helmets on concussion but also collated datasets on risk compensation and found no link, in fact people who wear helmets are more likely to be risk averse.
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Risk compensation is not an easy subject, not least as it is difficult to measure. But most mountain guides, climbers, outdoor leaders are well versed in it and take it into consideration.
Im my view the case is not that solid for helmets. But it is pretty solid for avalanche packs.
And even if there was some risk compensation going on, that does NOT mean that helmets should not be worn. It means that communication to, and education of participants on, the relative risks needs to be improved. The same with avalanche packs. It is dreadful logic to desist from utilising devices which inherently reduce risk of injury because the relative risks of an activity are misunderstood.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
| @Bones, Interestingly, other studies had shown the opposite - This particular study was looking into the effectiveness of helmets on concussion but also collated datasets on risk compensation and found no link, in fact people who wear helmets are more likely to be risk averse. |
If you take an activity were helmet wearing (or any other given bit of kit) is not mandatory then there will be a degree of bias created by natural risk takers not wearing the helmet in the first place.
I think it is fairly well established that for any given individual the more you make them feel protected (by giving them protective gear) the more risks they are likely to take. This effect is actually strongest in those who are are the natural risk takers anyway, as they are the most likely to believe any given bit of kit will save them in the event of everything going south.
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I can't believe that I only started wearing bicycle and ski helmets about 10 years ago. The latter was a requirement of a Snoworks course in Tignes, they took me a shop there to buy one.
Two things:
- without it, that's a very vulnerable eggshell. You may be skiing safely, but it only takes one idiot.
- I've seen plenty of smashed bike helmets post accident. Huge gaping cracks, but the wearer's head/brain was ultimately safe.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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can we get back off the helmet thing, please?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| can we get back off the helmet thing, please? |
+1
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| Quote: |
Two cracked ribs when an out of control idiot crashed into me in Switzerland. He understood me perfectly well following the incident. Despite it being clear he did not speak English
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@zikomo,yep, I get that. I’m sure I could get my anger across in such a situation. I’m just not so sure I could explain clearly to folk sitting in the middle of the piste, on the blindside of a crest, in their mother tongue, why that isn’t a good idea. I could show my frustration, but that’s not quite as educational. My fault, I know, for not having a strong enough handle on the local language.
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You know it makes sense.
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It is horrific for the family involved in this incident and it really focuses the mind as to how important it is to tailor your riding to the surroundings.
However the same needs to be said about people giving instruction, whether in school or privately. Only yesterday I had to navigate my way through the middle of a learners group because the instructor had them 'snaking' from one side of the piste to the other leaving literally no room to pass on the edges, talk about inviting trouble.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@PCcorner, yeah, you'd think they'd have worked out by now that that's not terribly helpful.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| PCcorner wrote: |
It is horrific for the family involved in this incident and it really focuses the mind as to how important it is to tailor your riding to the surroundings.
However the same needs to be said about people giving instruction, whether in school or privately. Only yesterday I had to navigate my way through the middle of a learners group because the instructor had them 'snaking' from one side of the piste to the other leaving literally no room to pass on the edges, talk about inviting trouble. |
+1.
As a cyclist/motor cyclist you soon get to realise that just because something is technically someone else's responsibility there is still much you can do to mitigate risk, so yes, the instructors could do more than just rely on the fact that the uphill skier 'should' give way to their class.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| PCcorner wrote: |
| I had to navigate my way through the middle of a learners group because the instructor had them 'snaking' from one side of the piste to the other leaving literally no room to pass on the edges |
As in a car behind a tractor, it's massively frustrating being held up like this, but the fact remains that it is your responsibility to wait as long as it takes to pass, whether that's a wider piste, they pull off, whatever.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Csb123, Yep. In that position, I tend to pull into the side and wait for a minute or two til the downhill piste has cleared. Just take in the views, or reapply sunscreen, or whatever, it never holds you up for long.
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40 weeks skiing behind me, I’ve genuinely never been irritated by ski school lessons using the entire width of pistes in their turns. Nor heard anyone referring to it, until here.
Everyone has to start somewhere. Novices/improvers are nervously getting used to the unwieldy planks, turning and traversing still a bit of mystery, they need the turning circle of the Titanic.
Easy for me to slow down, take my time or stop and wait for a gap.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@dode, @Snow&skifan, quite agree. I have never been irritated by classes going slow or taking up too much piste. Either it is safe to pass or it is not, and there is always the option of taking a break as you suggest.
I just don't get why anyone would have a problem with a ski school group. The bottom line is they have just the same right to be there as anyone else, and the downhill slope user has priority. And why would you not want to see people joining and progressing in your sport?
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I've never worried about beginner groups either. I was a beginner once, as were my children. I try to extend the same courtesy and patience as I expected people to afford my children when they were little.
Taking up the whole piste with a snake is a tactic which forces other skiers to slow down. It's clearly working, and that's a good thing. If you don't like it, tough. There are plenty of other pistes where you can get all the challenge you want. A gentle blue or green suitable for younger kids not being one of them.
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@Csb123, et al., that’s all very well other than when you are on a super wide piste and an instructor has 20 kids and is still taking up the whole width …
Bit like said tractor weaving across all three lanes of the motorway.
Can’t easily post the pic but a nasty collision up Brevent this morning.
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| zikomo wrote: |
@dode, @Snow&skifan, quite agree. I have never been irritated by classes going slow or taking up too much piste. Either it is safe to pass or it is not, and there is always the option of taking a break as you suggest.
I just don't get why anyone would have a problem with a ski school group. The bottom line is they have just the same right to be there as anyone else, and the downhill slope user has priority. And why would you not want to see people joining and progressing in your sport? |
Spot on.....
Re the helmet debate......... I have used a helmet but on my last trip in March 20 in ADH I took to not wearing a helmet again after two days. I thought my vision, hearing, understanding, awareness of others came back massively and I enjoyed my skiing far more. I am in two minds what to do in Courch in a couple of weeks.
I actually think wearing a helmet with those ear flaps affecting hearing and goggles over them, combining to affect peripheral vision is akin to a race horse wearing blinkers and I think piste safety is undermined from an awareness point of view in skiers. I know peoples' swedes are delicate but I don't think helmets are quite the answer people think they are. We seemed to manage ok without helmets for many many years. People seem to think a helmet protects you enough to go that bit faster, bit wilder rather than to ski a piste well. I am genuinely tied on the subject
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Yellow Snow, please stick to one of the (very) numerous helmet threads.
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| under a new name wrote: |
@Csb123, et al., that’s all very well other than when you are on a super wide piste and an instructor has 20 kids and is still taking up the whole width …
Bit like said tractor weaving across all three lanes of the motorway.
Can’t easily post the pic but a nasty collision up Brevent this morning. |
I still don't see the problem, if they are downhill they have priority and uphill slope users either have to wait or find a safe way to pass (allowing for any involuntary movement of the downhill skier). The instructor will choose to make the safest progress down the piste while embedding skills. The risk is caused by a sense that there is some "right" to be able to pass slope users who are proceeding more slowly that you might like, no such right or expectation exists in my view as the responsibility is on the uphill skier to find a safe way to pass not the downhill skier to make way.
What exactly is it that you have issue with?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| Bit like said tractor weaving across all three lanes of the motorway. |
Nothing like it. There are no lanes on a piste, the kids are within their rights to ski all over it, and the tractor driver would be breaking the rules of the road.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@zikomo, the problem is that selfish behaviour, no matter how morally righteous invites bad/risky behaviour. There isn't a lower level ski class on earth if it snakes across the entirety of high traffic run that is not putting its pupils in danger as people WILL try to pass no matter their skills and capacity to do so safely. So if the instructor is making that choice they aren't choosing to make the safest progress down the mountain.
Fortunately the very great majority of instructors are smarter than that though you will encounter some (cough old skool ESF cough) that think their uniform gives them absolute priority on the mountain and they lead their oversized classes accordingly.
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| under a new name wrote: |
@Csb123, et al., that’s all very well other than when you are on a super wide piste and an instructor has 20 kids and is still taking up the whole width …
Bit like said tractor weaving across all three lanes of the motorway.
Can’t easily post the pic but a nasty collision up Brevent this morning. |
Except a motorway is designed and there for high speed traffic, all drivers supposedly of a passed test standard.
Pistes, especially greens and blues, cover a wide array of standard of skier/boarder. Infants, beginners, the nervous.
As confident skiers, we owe them patience and care.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, I don't think you are right on this point.
It may be that the instructor has had so many close calls with people skiing fast and close to the pupils that he has decided to take a different approach. It may also be that some of the pupils are struggling with the gradient and this is the safest way for him to guide them down the pitch. There may be minor injuries or tired legs in the mix. The instructor has to balance all these elements in deciding the safest tactic, not just whether he is holding up those who want to ski that slope more quickly.
I would also suggest that this is much more likely to happen on quite gentle slopes. Anyone who finds it an irritant could choose to ski more difficult slopes and avoid the issue all together. I wonder if the frustration is more often caused by blue run heroes who like to ski fast on gentle gradients (and if unable to do so on steeper slopes are probably not maintaining the necessary control for their speed).
And I repeat the main issue is people imagining there is some expectation that you have a right to pass slower slope users. If we got rid of that expectation the slopes would be much safer for all.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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In most resorts you get to know the beginner areas and the time that the snakes are likely to be on the move to and from said areas, so it is not beyond the bounds of possibilities to avoid these areas at busy times.
To be completely honest the times that I have been skiing fast and probably beyond my capabilities is when hanging onto the back of a group being led by an instructor  fearing losing contact with the group. I am (hopefully) a bit better now.
Not sure that any of this has much relevance to the accident in Flaine though.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| zikomo wrote: |
@Dave of the Marmottes, I don't think you are right on this point.
It may be that the instructor has had so many close calls with people skiing fast and close to the pupils that he has decided to take a different approach. It may also be that some of the pupils are struggling with the gradient and this is the safest way for him to guide them down the pitch. There may be minor injuries or tired legs in the mix. The instructor has to balance all these elements in deciding the safest tactic, not just whether he is holding up those who want to ski that slope more quickly.
I would also suggest that this is much more likely to happen on quite gentle slopes. Anyone who finds it an irritant could choose to ski more difficult slopes and avoid the issue all together. I wonder if the frustration is more often caused by blue run heroes who like to ski fast on gentle gradients (and if unable to do so on steeper slopes are probably not maintaining the necessary control for their speed).
And I repeat the main issue is people imagining there is some expectation that you have a right to pass slower slope users. If we got rid of that expectation the slopes would be much safer for all. |
Well sure I can understand that there might be good reasons but I think your moral mission to change expectations and behaviours of every slope user has much less chance of success than people exercising intelligent self protection.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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But the fact that people are moaning about the snakes is evidence that they make people slow down. It's like riding a bike in the middle of a narrow lane so that idiot drivers can't squeeze past.
Small children are unpredictable so you need to give them a lot of room if you are going to overtake. The bigger the speed differential the bigger the margin needed. On a narrower piste that room often isn't available and it's a better defensive tactic for a class to take all the space.
Of course that fact that I am discussing defensive tactics when we are talking about little children on holiday not getting injured shows how wrong this whole situation is. Slow down, keep your distance. Relax. You are on holiday, not late for work.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Dave of the Marmottes, I agree that people should exercise intelligent self protection. And don't at all think I have any particular moral mission to change the behaviours of other slope users. Except that I do believe that the rules for skiing should be better understood and enforced.
What I am suggesting, however, is that you may be wrong in your judgement that the instructor in this scenario is increasing the risk to his pupils. An experienced ski instructor will be better able to make the judgement about the safest was to conduct his class. It seems more reasonable to assume that is the case rather than anything else. I don't now if you have any experience of instructing, but I can assure you that instructors do try and minimise the risk to their pupils and themselves and will have considerably more experience at doing so than a recreational skier.
And frankly you did suggest that the behaviour was "selfish" and expressed some frustration with it, so it is not unreasonable to assume that you find it frustrating and not that you are merely concerned for the optimal safety of the class.
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@zikomo, I'm not particularly frustrated by it - unless it's a very narrow catrack I usually have enough tricks up my sleeve to get past including often off the side. And yes I am interested in getting past as I don't want to be a crash mat for jerries hooning down behind me. But in choosing to take pupils on a particular route the hypothetical instructor who then hogs the piste is putting his/his charges wants above all other slope users. And if that's on a high traffic run - say a home run I think that meets the definition of selfish.
but let's not project that as I and my attitude are the enemy. As I've said I try to avoid such pistes wherever possible. I give ski classes a wide berth where possible. I just don't pretend I'm some saint snowploughing down any piste at the speed of the most timid slope user.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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What do the ski school manuals say about snakes? Presumably someone here would know?
To me "snakes", professionally led or otherwise, seem to be an obvious hazard which therefore require care.
Anyone who has tried to "overtake" a pedestrian walking on a pavement with a mobile phone will understand why people without situational awareness are a difficult thing to deal with. That's certainly mildly frustrating, a mildly selfish act by the telephone user who ignores the fact that the pavement is used by others, and that not all of them may wish to either listen to their conversation or walk at their pace.
I'd want any "snake" to be led with the understanding that some people at ski resorts for example drink alcohol.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, Fair enough. Just don't agree with your assumption that the instructor is NOT doing the safest thing for the class, as I think am experienced instructor is better able to make that judgement.
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| zikomo wrote: |
| @Dave of the Marmottes, Fair enough. Just don't agree with your assumption that the instructor is NOT doing the safest thing for the class, as I think am experienced instructor is better able to make that judgement. |
Sometimes by setting off from meeting point the instructor is NOT doing the safest thing for the class by taking more kids than he/she can sensibly wrangle and attend to. I think that is pretty obvious to all, instructor or not.
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| philwig wrote: |
What do the ski school manuals say about snakes? Presumably someone here would know?
To me "snakes", professionally led or otherwise, seem to be an obvious hazard which therefore require care.
Anyone who has tried to "overtake" a pedestrian walking on a pavement with a mobile phone will understand why people without situational awareness are a difficult thing to deal with. That's certainly mildly frustrating, a mildly selfish act by the telephone user who ignores the fact that the pavement is used by others, and that not all of them may wish to either listen to their conversation or walk at their pace.
I'd want any "snake" to be led with the understanding that some people at ski resorts for example drink alcohol. |
Young children don't have much situational awareness or a well developed peripheral vision. So if they are to be allowed to ski at all it's up to adults to steer clear. I don't find that frustrating at all it's just commen sense.
Blaming anybody for being knocked down by a drunk skier is just ridiculous.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Csb123, @dode, @Snow&skifan, @zikomo, @hyperkub,
Just for the avoidance of any doubt, I (and I suspect @dotm) am singularly and specifically referring to the situation (sadly encountered infrequently but too often) on a wide to very wide (not mid to narrow) slope where an instructor is deliberately** and wilfully using his class (almost always oversized in numbers, thereby questioning the instructor's original judgement) to block all other skiers. Which - exactly opposite to " Taking up the whole piste with a snake is a tactic which forces other skiers to slow down. *** " is 1. using his (usually pretty junior*) class as a somewhat unusual (stupid?) traffic calming measure and 2. is very selfishly causing an obstruction.
Second point, run gradings are neither speed limits nor waivers. It doesn't matter what colour the run is graded - you should ski in control, at a speed appropriate to the situation and the comfort and safety of the other skiers on that piste.
I'm not convinced I like the motoring analogies but ... the Cardinal Rule as taught to me by my driving instructor minute 1 in lesson 1, and I think applies equally to skiing (and much of life):
Never do anything that will cause another driver to react.
Noting also, on said mid to narrow pistes, yes, you will come across classes, or indeed just individual skiers taking up the whole piste. That is simply an object lesson in patience (or creative avoidance, e.g. running up the off piste at the side).
* junior doesn't necessarily mean slow, weak, incapable. I watched my 8 y.o. nephew straightline a firm-to-icy- black this afternoon 
** generally accompanied by an obvious sense of entitlement
*** If you really think that's what's going on, and that it's a good thing, forgive me, but you're bonkers.
There endeth the lesson.
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| under a new name wrote: |
@Csb123, @dode, @Snow&skifan, @zikomo, @hyperkub,
Just for the avoidance of any doubt, I (and I suspect @dotm) am singularly and specifically referring to the situation (sadly encountered infrequently but too often) on a wide to very wide (not mid to narrow) slope where an instructor is deliberately** and wilfully using his class (almost always oversized in numbers, thereby questioning the instructor's original judgement) to block all other skiers. Which - exactly opposite to " Taking up the whole piste with a snake is a tactic which forces other skiers to slow down. *** " is 1. using his (usually pretty junior*) class as a somewhat unusual (stupid?) traffic calming measure and 2. is very selfishly causing an obstruction.
Second point, run gradings are neither speed limits nor waivers. It doesn't matter what colour the run is graded - you should ski in control, at a speed appropriate to the situation and the comfort and safety of the other skiers on that piste.
I'm not convinced I like the motoring analogies but ... the Cardinal Rule as taught to me by my driving instructor minute 1 in lesson 1, and I think applies equally to skiing (and much of life):
Never do anything that will cause another driver to react.
Noting also, on said mid to narrow pistes, yes, you will come across classes, or indeed just individual skiers taking up the whole piste. That is simply an object lesson in patience (or creative avoidance, e.g. running up the off piste at the side).
* junior doesn't necessarily mean slow, weak, incapable. I watched my 8 y.o. nephew straightline a firm-to-icy- black this afternoon
** generally accompanied by an obvious sense of entitlement
*** If you really think that's what's going on, and that it's a good thing, forgive me, but you're bonkers.
There endeth the lesson. |
Very interesting that the horizon of your driving instructor only extended to other drivers. The MOST important things to look out for are the most vulnerable, no other drivers. For example children, wheelxhairs, pedestrians and cyclists, etc.
Normal rules of courtesy etc don't apply with children skiing. Because they are not aware of whay's going on and gheir full concentration is on the physical act of skiing, not the world around them.
Obviously as instructor one shouldn't deliberately cause nuisance to others just for the sake of it. But in many cases causing nuisance is unavoidable. And if it's safer to take all the space, then they should take it. That's their judgement to make, not yours.
As has been pointed already many times there are plenty of pistes completely empty of instructed groups.
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FAQ
