 Poster: A snowHead
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In theory, could a family have their teens tested at the airport on arrival, obtain a QR code and upload it to a FR or CH app to give them a few days before they would need to get a test in resort (and avoid the day 1 crush which is going to be inevitable if PS becomes mandatory).
Also, has anyone got any suggestion as to how the sale of lift passes might work for teens operating on a rolling 48/72 hour test? ie are they only going to sell you a lift pass within the expiry of your PS? If so, thats going to add significantly to the cost having to buy multiple 2 or 3 day lift passes as opposed to a week pass.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@RichieC43, a quote from my local area in Austria, 3G for these purposes is the same as PDS. I expect weekly passes etc will follow the same logic.
| Quote: |
| The 3G certificate is checked when the ski pass is purchased and is unlocked for the period of validity of the respective certificate. For example, if you provide a PCR test when purchasing a season pass, you may be handed a season pass, but it may only be unlocked for a maximum of 72 hours after the test has been taken. After that, you need to provide a new 3G certificate to continue using the season ticket. |
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@RichieC43, france has confirmed no PS for lifts.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Chris_n wrote: |
@RichieC43, a quote from my local area in Austria, 3G for these purposes is the same as PDS. I expect weekly passes etc will follow the same logic.
| Quote: |
| The 3G certificate is checked when the ski pass is purchased and is unlocked for the period of validity of the respective certificate. For example, if you provide a PCR test when purchasing a season pass, you may be handed a season pass, but it may only be unlocked for a maximum of 72 hours after the test has been taken. After that, you need to provide a new 3G certificate to continue using the season ticket. |
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Thanks, that would be a logical way of doing it
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Pass Sanitaire will be required on lifts in France, tho, if case numbers continue to rise:
Samedi 6 novembre, le Premier ministre, en déplacement en Haute-Savoie, a annoncé que dans le cas où le taux d'incidence national venait à repasser au-dessus des 200 cas pour 100 000 habitants, le pass sanitaire sur les remontées mécaniques deviendra obligatoire.
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| Nadenoodlee wrote: |
| @RichieC43, france has confirmed no PS for lifts. |
Not really! For now they have....subject to the well discussed proviso of case numbers remaining low
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@backhojo, Get a rapid test at Gatwick the day we depart.
The nuclear option would be to cancel everything and say sod it. Everything we've booked (except flights which can of course be used again) can be cancelled up to 48 hours before we arrive. But of course, we want to go skiing! So, as long as the testing option is in place, I suspect we will bite the bullet and do the tests if we have to. But it grates that we can't get teenagers a second jab, and even if we could, the App won't give proof. And there is now more talk about oldies needing three because they got jabs much earlier, and the App needs to be reconfigured for them-whilst teenagers can't even get an QR at all. Priorities?
But I really see this case level of 200 as a dog's dinner of a policy. How will it be enforced on the day-by the lifties specifically on gondolas/bubbles? There would be massive queues, more staff needed at short notice! When you buy the pass-although when you buy it, the case level may be under 200 so no need for PS at that time? If we share a valid QR code with my daughters, how will they be able to check it is actually theirs?
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@backhojo, Get a rapid test at Gatwick the day we depart.
The nuclear option would be to cancel everything and say sod it. Everything we've booked (except flights which can of course be used again) can be cancelled up to 48 hours before we arrive. But of course, we want to go skiing! So, as long as the testing option is in place, I suspect we will bite the bullet and do the tests if we have to. But it grates that we can't get teenagers a second jab, and even if we could, the App won't give proof. And there is now more talk about oldies needing three because they got jabs much earlier, and the App needs to be reconfigured for them-whilst teenagers can't even get an QR at all. Priorities?
But I really see this case level of 200 as a dog's dinner of a policy. How will it be enforced on the day-by the lifties specifically on gondolas/bubbles? There would be massive queues, more staff needed at short notice! When you buy the pass-although when you buy it, the case level may be under 200 so no need for PS at that time? If we share a valid QR code with my daughters, how will they be able to check it is actually theirs?
In the end, I suspect we'll make a last minute decision based on how things seem to be working in the first week or two of the season-we are due to go 11th December to 3V, so it will be a quiet week anyway so should be able to get tests booked.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| snowhound wrote: |
| If we share a valid QR code with my daughters, how will they be able to check it is actually theirs? |
In theory the requirement in many locations (e.g. Germany where I spent last week) is Vaccination or recovery proof plus photo ID. In practice only the hotel asked for both, restaurants only glanced at the QR code on my French TAC app.
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| backhojo wrote: |
| Timmycb5 wrote: |
Do you guys not plan even stopping for a coffee/drink at anytime? Or using the Café loos? All of these potentially will need the PS.
By the sounds of it my twin girls will be double jabbed, so fine. I’m just hoping I can get the infected and infected and recovered cert for my lad so we can avoid testing. |
in 20years of skiing i have never stopped for coffee...we go to ski not drink ! we carry snacks and have a camebak with water (and a hip flask for "port o clock"  ).
as my teenager is a boy then he can pee behind a tree. my wife has a covid pass.
if your twins are double jabbed they will still not get a covid pass if they are under 16 as NHS app doesnt give QR codes to under 16s |
Blimey. We stop once in the morning and once in the afternoon for a quick coffee/hot choc/vin chaud. I find it keeps the kids (and wife) happy and we stay out longer.
My girls are 16 so no issues there. Just the lad to worry about.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@DJL, Yep, am hoping that checks for lifts will be cursory at best. I can't see how they have the time to check QR codes against IDs in practice in a queue, particularly in busy weeks. But as we are going when it is quiet and at the start of the season, they might try and make a special effort to do so, in order to try and make a point.
Not bothered about cafes/restaurants....we'd prefer to be able to pop in for a drink and snack whilst on the mountain, but it's not a deal breaker.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| snowhound wrote: |
| @DJL, Yep, am hoping that checks for lifts will be cursory at best. |
Perhaps doing a proper check when you buy the lift pass rather than trying to do a rapid check every time you ride a lift might be a better approach for the lift companies?
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@rob@rar, I would agree if the PS was mandated for the season. But taking a half way house creates all sorts of practical difficulties. You could buy your pass on Sunday morning when the rates were (say) 180, and so not need any verification. But then they could be above 200 by the end of the week which would then need checking at the lifts.
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You know it makes sense.
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@snowhound, they would just make your pass invalid so you had to to the ticket office for verification. From my area website in Austria
| Quote: |
| The 3G certificate is checked when the ski pass is purchased and is unlocked for the period of validity of the respective certificate. For example, if you provide a PCR test when purchasing a season pass, you may be handed a season pass, but it may only be unlocked for a maximum of 72 hours after the test has been taken. After that, you need to provide a new 3G certificate to continue using the season ticket. |
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Ah right, I didnt realise passes could be validated/invalidated once issued. But then of course, they can cancel lost ones.....
Still would make for complete mayhem when the PS kicked in if everyone's pass had to be verified that morning-either by QR or test result.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| snowhound wrote: |
As the father of teenagers, I've just sent a polite email rant to my Conservative MP who is quite a big 'up and coming' name about both the 1 v 2 jab issue and the failure of the NHS to provide proof of vaccination/infection status to under 18s.
If I get a worthwhile reply, will post it.
It is completely inequitable that my parents in their 80s can now travel freely, yet my daughters (who have been hammered by restrictions to ostensibly 'save granny') cannot. |
Just playing catchup with this thread after a week away from the web, and I have done the same to my (Conservative) MP. I was actually surprised to get a coherent message back quite speedily  mostly filled with party line stuff, but that he would be forwarding the concerns to PHE, as well as the clinical lead in our area (South Gloucestershire). I'm not holding out much hope of anything changing quickly as it seems govt depts are legendary for their glacial pace.
I'll look to update the thread with the reply(s) from the MP, as and when they come in.
CF
Thank you for getting in touch regarding your issue with your son's vaccinations and a potential covid pass. I am sorry to hear about the difficulty you are experiencing, and I fully appreciate your concerns.
As suggested, I will raise these concerns to NHS England and ask for full consideration of your comments and concerns regarding covid passes and walk in centres for under 16's and will ask for any immediate attention this could receive.
With your permission, I will raise your son's individual case with the Director of Public Health at South Gloucestershire Council and the Clinical Commissioning Group for South Gloucestershire to seek immediate consideration of his requirements to receive a second vaccine and seek any guidance which they offer.
While the vast majority of the vaccination programme for 12- to 15-year-olds will be delivered in schools, supported by GPs and community pharmacies, it is welcome that the Government has taken steps to offer more choice to parents around getting their child vaccinated. Young people aged 12 to 15 are now able to book their vaccine using the national booking system meaning they will be able to get vaccinated at existing sites, including GP surgeries, community pharmacies and other local sites.
In many countries with vaccination rules for entry, children under 16 are treated as being fully vaccinated, however I am aware that this does not apply to all countries. I understand that the Government is working on a plan that would allow children to demonstrate proof of having COVID antibodies and I look forward to learning more about this in due course. As ever, it will ultimately be up to individual countries to make their own decisions on entry requirements.
If there is ever anything I can do to be of further assistance as our local MP, please do let me know.
With my very best wishes,
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I would expect that the announcement would be ' From the X date the PS will be required to access ski lifts' therefore providing time for the vaccinated to verify their passes. ( Although I expect it would still be chaos the first day).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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"In many countries with vaccination rules for entry, children under 16 are treated as being fully vaccinated...."
...but that does not address the point that once in the country, they are then treated as being unvaccinated!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I agree and also: "In many countries with vaccination rules for entry, children under 16 are treated as being fully vaccinated, however I am aware that this does not apply to all countries"
Just off the top of my head that doesn't apply to France, Spain or Greece - probably the most visited countries (and lots more, I know). Just so frustrating to be so far behind them. For travel but also for safety for those young people and their families.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Soozm wrote: |
I agree and also: "In many countries with vaccination rules for entry, children under 16 are treated as being fully vaccinated, however I am aware that this does not apply to all countries"
Just off the top of my head that doesn't apply to France, Spain or Greece - probably the most visited countries (and lots more, I know). Just so frustrating to be so far behind them. For travel but also for safety for those young people and their families. |
Agree. He seemed to miss the point I raised in my original email (see below) about skiing, and specifically mentioning France.
He has also replied with his letters to the relevant people to hopefully move things along - with the aforementioned 'glacial pace'
Good afternoon Sir,
I am writing to you with the hope that you might be able to assist, or at least raise the issue, with regards to a situation that is not unique to myself. I have a son, 15 years old, who has additional needs, and attends a special school in XXXXXX.
Due to the potentially serious issues of the spread of COVID within the school, there is a vaccination drive taking place and this is to be applauded. We have been informed that he will be eligible for his second COVID jab after 8 weeks, and this will hopefully enable him to be fully vaccinated before Christmas.
The problems I am encountering relate to the inability, currently, to attend any of the walk in centres for a second vaccination, specifically UWE, as this will give a greater flexibility for my son (and others in a similar position) to complete their vaccination process in a timely manner. But, there is no information as to why this cannot be undertaken – and is currently restricted to over 16’s only.
Furthermore, and more importantly to my son, is the proof of vaccination, which currently can only be obtained by over 16’s on the NHS App, and I believe the COVID pass cannot be generated / issued directly by the NHS to any under 16’s either. As it stands, within the UK, this would not be a significant issue as he would not be required to show any proof of vaccination for any events. However, as a family, we are, and would like to continue to be, holidaymakers again, and this is where the proof of vaccination problems occur.
As I am sure you are aware, there is a degree of disparity within the EU and neighbouring countries as to the restrictions and requirements being placed upon both residents and travellers in relation to COVID vaccinations and access to public facilities. As such, one of the family activities we enjoy is winter sports, but this is looking unlikely (again) this winter due to the requirement to undertake additional testing for COVID before travel (for minors) as well as regularly in resort – at considerable expense. All this though, in spite of being fully vaccinated, as due to the NHS systems, we cannot prove, satisfactorily to other nations, that my son is fully vaccinated (or will be by Christmas). As an active contributor to an online skiing forum, I would appear to be sharing my frustration at the situation with others in a similar position to the point that some school trips to France this winter can now no longer go ahead, specifically related to this very issue.
I would appreciate it if this matter could be raised with the relevant persons at the department for health, as I feel this is not an insurmountable issue. For example, if it relates to data protection for minors, can parental logins on apps / NHS online be amended to allow them to show family health records, as well as individuals.
If for some reason, this cannot be rectified, I would be grateful if you could obtain, and return to me, a full explanation as to why it cannot be done, and what the department is proposing to do to overcome this issue going forwards – particularly as it would seem that the current position of the government, the JCVI and the NHS, would be that globally, we are not going to be eradicating COVID any time soon, and that we must learn to live with the virus, as we do for other respiratory conditions.
Kind regards and best wishes,
Dear CF,
Thank you for your prompt response and all the information you have provided regarding your concerns.
I have now contacted the relevant teams regarding your son's case and your wider comments on the Covid Pass for under 16's. I have included all the correspondence below for your information.
Thank you again for raising this issue with me and I will be in touch again with any responses I receive as soon as I can.
With my very best wishes,
Luke
Luke Hall MP
Member of Parliament for Thornbury, Yate and the surrounding villages
House of Commons
London, SW1A 0AA
01454 311267
Luke.hall.mp@parliament.uk
Email to NHS England
Dear Team,
I have been contacted by CF regarding his 15-year old son and his vaccination status.
My constituent is concerned about his family's ability to travel abroad or attend events without a covid pass for his son who is under 16. CF is asking whether anything is being planned by NHS England to allow under 16's to show their vaccination status going forward. Additionally, CF has asked for an insight regarding his son's access to vaccine walk-in centres and is concerned that he has experienced difficulty in accessing drop-in clinics locally. I have included my constituent's full correspondence where he explains his concerns in greater detail.
I would be very grateful for any attention this could receive and would appreciate a full consideration of my constituent's comments and concerns.
With my very best wishes,
Luke
-------------------------------------------------------------
Email to South Gloucestershire Council, and Clinical Commissioning Group
Dear Sara,
I have been contacted by CF regarding his 15-year-old son's second vaccination.
My constituent explained that restrictions on under 16's to attend certain walk-in centres has caused issues with his son receiving his second dose, due to the lack of flexibility. I have included CF's full email which outlines in greater detail the issues he has experienced.
I would be very grateful for any attention this could receive and would appreciate a full consideration of my constituent's comments and concerns. I have included in this email the local Clinical Commissiong Group, and I would be grateful for any further assistance and guidance they could offer.
With my very best wishes,
Luke
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Response from my MP. Mostly unhelpful but she does say she has passed on the request that children should be able to prove their vaccine status (useful eg for Italy)
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Thank you for your email regarding Covid vaccines for under 18s, and international restrictions on unvaccinated and partially vaccinated individuals.
As you are aware, the JCVI has now recommended to the Government that those aged over 12 should be allowed to receive the vaccine. While the JCVI is of the opinion that the benefits from vaccination are marginally greater than the potential known harms, the data showed that the risk of myocarditis among under 18s increased after the second dose. Therefore, in recognition of this change in risk, the committee decided to recommend only one dose to otherwise healthy under 18s, rather than two doses. I know how disruptive this pandemic has been on the lives of children, and I am pleased that this is decision has been made to help young people keep safe and return to their normal lives.
I appreciate your concerns about the social restrictions in other countries for everyone aged over 12 who have not received two doses. However I recognise that the JCVI are following the latest scientific data, and are giving advice on the rollout of the vaccine based on what they believe to be best for children in the UK, rather than based on requirements set by foreign governments. Ultimately, the medical advice the JCVI issue should have safety as their top priority.
Saying that, I am also aware that many countries accept more than one method to demonstrate an individual’s Covid status. For example, in France, the ‘pass sanitaire’ demonstrates the Covid status through either proof of vaccine, a negative PCR or antigen test, or a document proving the individual has recently recovered from Covid.
I also appreciate your frustration that the digital NHS Covid pass is only available to over 16s, and I have recently written to the Health Minister, Maggie Throup MP, about extending the pass to under 16s, to make is easier for 12-15 years olds to demonstrate their Covid status abroad. I hope to receive a response from the Minister shortly.
I appreciate your feedback, and I am happy to pass on your comments to my colleagues in Government to ensure that they are aware of the issues potentially facing young people if they travel abroad, who are not currently recommended to receive two doses.
Once again, thank you for taking the time to contact me and please let me know if I can be of further assistance.
With best wishes,
Laura
MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR SEVENOAKS AND SWANLEY
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Her reasoning doesn’t stand up. We all know the risk of myocarditis is far higher from catching Covid. I can only think that either they made this half-arsed decision and need to stick by it for a little while before they allow the second jab or that they do think letting Covid spread amongst teenagers is better/cheaper/easier. Makes me so angry.
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Her reasoning doesn’t stand up. We all know the risk of myocarditis is far higher from catching Covid. I can only think that either they made this half-arsed decision and need to stick by it for a little while before they allow the second jab or that they do think letting Covid spread amongst teenagers is better/cheaper/easier. Makes me so angry.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Soozm, so frustrating.
Does anyone know the form that a positive PCR test appears on the Nhs app and have you used it in Austria as proof of recovered from Covid? 17yo has had a jab and had Covid in august and we’re hoping to go to Austria at Christmas. He’s having trouble downloading the app at the moment and is awaiting an email to finally have it set up but I’m keen to know in the meantime how it will look
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@bambionskiis, not sure what form the proper 'recovery cert' from the NHS looks like as my daughter is under 16 and can't access it, but....
We went onto her on-line NHS profile, went to her test results tab, opened the PCR she took, and printed the positive result from there.
Took it to France, where it was b'all use, but it may be in Austria.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@midgetbiker, this is what’s bothering me. I’m not convinced many Austrian cafe owners would be up for wading through the Nhs app and looking for the words. Quite rightly they’ll want a certificate or qr code. I’m going to put another post up about this.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Specialman, as I understand it if the child wants it they don’t need parental consent, if they can be deemed to be responsible. Don’t know their age and if 12 may not be but if 15, almost certainly will be considered responsible. Unless I have completely misunderstood what I have read
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| NickyJ wrote: |
| @Specialman, as I understand it if the child wants it they don’t need parental consent, if they can be deemed to be responsible. Don’t know their age and if 12 may not be but if 15, almost certainly will be considered responsible. Unless I have completely misunderstood what I have read |
He's 12yo. He's the stereotypical pre-teen lad, "Whatever" being his common response to most questions beyond "Are you alive in there?"  so he'll go along with most things.... But with a lot of his mates having it, and the fact that a jab allows him to go on an Xmas holiday with a bit less faffing, he's keen to get on with the jab. Need to check if his school is doing the vaccine roll-out or if we have to search out ourselves, that's my next job...
But my opinion at the moment is the jab for teens is at least a way of opening things up for them. The long-term health implications/worries are something none of us can budget for so in a sense, it's leap of faith in order to get some immediate gains such as being able to travel with a bit more certainty.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I don't think there is a lower limit technically, but I think it is generally considered most 13 year old are "Gillick competent".
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Specialman wrote: |
| NickyJ wrote: |
| @Specialman, as I understand it if the child wants it they don’t need parental consent, if they can be deemed to be responsible. Don’t know their age and if 12 may not be but if 15, almost certainly will be considered responsible. Unless I have completely misunderstood what I have read |
He's 12yo. He's the stereotypical pre-teen lad, "Whatever" being his common response to most questions beyond "Are you alive in there?" so he'll go along with most things.... But with a lot of his mates having it, and the fact that a jab allows him to go on an Xmas holiday with a bit less faffing, he's keen to get on with the jab. Need to check if his school is doing the vaccine roll-out or if we have to search out ourselves, that's my next job...
But my opinion at the moment is the jab for teens is at least a way of opening things up for them. The long-term health implications/worries are something none of us can budget for so in a sense, it's leap of faith in order to get some immediate gains such as being able to travel with a bit more certainty. |
Saw an interesting interview with the CMO from the USA (do they call it Surgeon General over there) where is was promoting getting teens jabbed as whilst this is approved and offered in US take up is below 50%. He basically said he couldn't 100% guarantee the effects of the jab 20 years from now as no data exists, however, did he know of any vaccine in existance that had long terms side effects, no, so why would he think any might exist here. Set that against the known short and long term effects of Covid (plus any unkown as yet longer term effects) and in his opinion the correct course of action was obvious.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| midgetbiker wrote: |
Saw an interesting interview with the CMO from the USA (do they call it Surgeon General over there) where is was promoting getting teens jabbed as whilst this is approved and offered in US take up is below 50%. He basically said he couldn't 100% guarantee the effects of the jab 20 years from now as no data exists, however, did he know of any vaccine in existance that had long terms side effects, no, so why would he think any might exist here. Set that against the known short and long term effects of Covid (plus any unknown as yet longer term effects) and in his opinion the correct course of action was obvious. |
That was my argument to the wife. She's rightly concerned as a parent that if an uniformed decision is made and it has serious implications later in life for our kids, then she couldn't live with that. My argument is that, like you say, long-term effects may only be found in 5, 10, 15 yrs when these children are adults and if we don't move forward now then we'll be locked in a cycle of not doing anything for fear of the ramifications. It does sound selfish but it's a more realistic view than just holding off year after year...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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has anyone seen the set up for getting tests in the mountains for UK teenagers? I can't see much on line from searching. We're keeping an eye on the daily total per 100k in france, it's started rising now, and we're seriously considering cancelling / although we'll loose deposit if it looks too high by December 4th when we've got to pay for our apartment. Gutted that because our kids only get one jab and the nhs app isn't usable for under 16s that they'll miss out on another year of life experiences.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@specialman I don't think it will help you if he gets vaccinated will it? the problem is the disparity between the UK vaccine schedule (1 jab) and all the EU countries, US and Canada schedules (2 jabs). Even if your teen is vaccinated according to the UK decision - like my daughter - it doesn't make any difference.
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There's 7 pages to this thread, and it seems like everything keeps changing, so can't quite work out where we're at. We're off to France for Easter, with a vaccinated 13 yr old and a non-vaccinated 10 year old. Is there anything in the current rules stopping us having a relatively normal holiday?
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Is your 13 year old double vaccinated or single? If they've only had one jab they will need to have a negative test every 72 hours for the pass sanitaire to use restaurants, cafes, shops etc. (As things stand)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Thanks @Soozm, only single as allowed. So the main impact currently is on restaurants, cafes and shops - does that include if you sit outside?
EDIT: she did have covid previously, would that act as an additional jab?
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| Soozm wrote: |
| @specialman I don't think it will help you if he gets vaccinated will it? the problem is the disparity between the UK vaccine schedule (1 jab) and all the EU countries, US and Canada schedules (2 jabs). Even if your teen is vaccinated according to the UK decision - like my daughter - it doesn't make any difference. |
Yeah, this is the other issue isn't it.... UK Gov deems single jab teens as vaccinated, EU countries don't so it's pointless in a sense. We're looking at going to Austria, who are considering their position on 12-18yos and don't have any advice, so that leaves us in the dark at the moment.
It's a proper minefield wrapped up in a massive cockup.... I just want us to go skiing 
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FAQ
my kids woudl be the opposite - grumpy if we stopped and happy if we ski. each to their own 
