Is the 2021/2022 in doubt ?

A snowHead

@luanb, no it's a sense of proportion. It's understanding that there is more to life than preventing death, and that spending a nation's wealth on treating a single disease over everything else is lunatic.

A snowHead

@boobleblooble, All other treatments were cancelled due to the pressures caused by C19 on the Health Service.

Without a lockdown, the numbers needing acute treatment would have been many times higher, which would have resulted in these services being cancelled anyway, along with many more. We would have experienced queues at every hospital similar to those being experience now in India.

Just how many excess deaths would you have tolerated to keep your "freedoms"? 500,000?, 1 million? 2 million? 5 million?

How many body bags would you have accepted being stacked up in the street because there were not enough coffins to go around, and not enough capacity at crematoriums or graveyards? - we reached capacity very quickly, as anyone who tried to arrange a funeral, Covid related or not quickly found out.

Population density plays a massive part in the spread of viruses. Sweden, which is very sparsly populated compared to the UK tried to avoid lockdowns, but even they had to resort to some restrictions.

Maybe you would explain how you would have continued with your "normal" life. with all the disruption that would have been caused by staff absenses? Do you really think buses and trains would have continued to run to schedule?

Have you, or do you intend to be vaccinated? If you think this is all a fuss about nothing, then I assume you have given, or will give up your place in the queue to someone in more need?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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@brianatab, yes that's correct: the NHS was indeed 'overwhelmed' as many simply died at home, away from the cameras.

How do you know that lockdowns work? I've just provided three examples of countries which confound your view. India has a dismal health system and simply isn't comparable. That's not C19 that's not enough spending or planning.

You put freedoms in scare quotes but refuse to address the basic point: why are you so willing to give them up for untried ideas like lockdowns and forced masking? You assume that the things the Government did actually worked! As for dead bodies in the street: please. Grow up. There have been refrigerator lorries outside hospitals in winter in living memory.

Sweden is not sparsely populated. This has been done before. Norway is, Sweden isn't. The vast majority live in and around Malmo, Stockholm and Helsingborg.

Yes I do: for the vast majority C19 is a sniffle or a chest infection. We've known this from the start: have you still not understood how low the fatality rate is compared to other previous pandemics? Look up the Hong Kong 'flu in the sixties which killed a similar proportion.

What's that got to do with anything? Even if I'm a hypocrite how does that make my argument any weaker? If a raving loony said 2+2=4 would you disagree simply because they're a nutter and not because of their argument?

@luanb, yours must be ashamed of your cowardice. If you want to be helpful then go and train as a nurse, otherwise shut up. "Sacrifice the lives"? You drama queen.

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@boobleblooble, lol....I should have never engaged in conversation with a sociopath. May you have a life you deserve, probably not though as evil people tends to do quite well for themselves.

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You missed the important question. How many deaths would you consider acceptable?

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@brianatab, no you've missed it: how many deaths would I tolerate to do what? Lockdowns and masks? They don't WORK, that's the whole point.

@luanb, go onto NHS jobs and sign up. Pick something useful and get on with it.

After all it is free

Why are you arguing about the effectiveness of masks and lockdowns? This forum is about skiing and this thread the likelihood there of. If I want debates about masks I'll read the opinion of people who have actual qualifications in these things rather than people who 'like skiing and mulled wine" (I appreciate they're not mutually exclusive)

Thanks!

getting back to original question. I sincerely hope that governments don't take their foot off the gas until everyone that wants the vaccine has had the opportunity to have both doses, then surely we have to get back to normal & skiing as part of the wider travel must be allowed. We can not live by restrictions to protect those that chose not to take up the vaccine offer, their choice to accept the risk.

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It should happen but I don't think it will, it will go the same way as summer. No doubt Govt is destroying tourism and airline industry to achieve carbon agenda under guise of COVID. I'm booked February HT driving as usual so we'll see how it plays out.

I can't see how the Alps can sustain another lost season, they will be desperate for us to spend our money, unfortunately Boris wants us to spend it on overpriced and underwhelming breaks in the UK.

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@grumpygargoyle, which people would those be? The experts who said the lab leak theory was a conspiracy and now all of a sudden it isn't? A lot of supposedly serious scientists have humiliated themselves recently.

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You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@Layne, I'm noting a distinct inability to answer many of my questions. It's internet arguing though so it's not of a very high standard.

A snowHead

@boobleblooble, you ask a lot of dumb questions and people can't be arsed.

A snowHead

@James77, I hardly think the Gov would want to kill an industry that makes so much money for the country and provides so many jobs.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@Layne, I think everyone is tired and fed-up. They are also having to come to terms with the fact that all the restrictions and constant badgering and fear were pointless. Excusing the Government for WMD and Iraq etc was easier because it affected so few. This kind of incompetence can't be laughed off however and many are simply going to stop trusting the Government and the state in general. Why would they continue to obey increasingly petty rules and regulations that clearly make no sense?

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Infamy, Infamy, They've all got it in for me!!!!

It's all an international conspiracy for Governments to take away our freedoms and take us back to the dark ages and Serfdom.

But only the likes of @boobleblooble, can recognise it for what it is. The rest of us apparently, are blinded by the lies of the big multinationals and now controlled by the bots they injected under the guise of a vaccine.

Very Happy

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Sigh. If I had said to you in January 2020 that the novel Wuhan coronavirus would spread to Europe and our governments would put us under house arrest, forbid us from seeing our dying family in hospital, compel us to wear masks on pain of a fine, ban us from leaving the country and finally arrest us for demonstrating against the above you would've said I was mad, a conspiracy theorist etc.

Now it has happened you call me a nutter for saying that the measures were futile and that eventually we are all going to have to understand that this is the biggest public policy f-ck up in modern history. Not only that but the basic protections we had in law and custom from the Government doing things like this to us have failed. What happens if next time the PM and his Cabinet are less benign? You assume that our politicians will always behave. What happens when someone comes along who simply doesn't care about public opinion and just rams through laws?

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@boobleblooble, I have no love our Government or many others for that matter - nor do I implicitly trust them.

We didn't shut down quickly enough and we tried to unlock or relax regulations at the wrong times and in the wrong ways.

If the public in general had the same view as you then there would be mass disobedience. But there isn't.

I certainly have concerns about the Government taking our liberties and freedoms but that goes beyond Covid. I also have concerns about their competence and that they are corrupt. None of which means lockdowns and masks have not or can not save lives. TBH it seems totally logical to me that to prevent the spread of an highly transmissible airborne disease can be prevented via lack of movement, lack of spending time in a enclosed, unventilated space and via preventing exhalation into the environment.

After all it is free

The 2021-22 season will certainly go ahead. In Switzerland, it'll at worst be just a re-run of the 2020-21 season, which they managed to operate fine with a variety of restrictions and with no conspicuous knock-on effect to general infection/death rates. Téléverbier still managed to achieve a 3% profit on a significantly reduced turnover, according to their CEO and this reduced margin hasn't changed their 5-year investment programme.

The question is more whether the UK traveller will find it possible - or if possible, cost-effective - to go to the Alps next season. If things progress as they have so far, then I'd say yes. With a UK skier having to download one or more vaccination apps in order to avoid testing and quarantine at their destination and on return. By that time, no one will bat an eyelid at having to use a vaccination certificate app. for travel.

@Layne, if all these things are logical then why have they never been done before? On what evidence did the Government make that decision in such a short space of time last March? There is considerable evidence now that they don't work or if they do the benefits are negligible when set against the damage.

I've said it so many times now: Sweden and Japan to take just two did not have anything like full lockdowns and did well. Belgium and Peru did not despite harsh controls. You also fail to say why these controls have to be mandatory when other pandemics have not required anything like such control.

@LaForet, did they? Friends of mine over there said the lifts shut a week early because of heavy losses.

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Thanks @LaForet, actual skiing stuff as ever.

@boobleblooble, you're still off topic.

@LaForet, fair enough at least someone did OK in the end.

@Layne, was there an error with the link? It doesn't take me anywhere else.

As for the pandemics, Hong Kong and Asian 'flu: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8027501.stm. They're wearing masks interestingly which suggests we don't learn from our mistakes.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Yes thanks @LaForet, so good to get the thread back on topic and good to see the great efforts put in by the Swiss paid off. Hopefully will lead the way for other alpine nations next season.

Gives me a little hope for next season and much more pleasant to read than the same arguments bounced back and forth.

A snowHead

Kind of suspect the next Scottish Season will be in much less danger if the CairnGorm funicular is fixed…. rolling eyes

A snowHead

@boobleblooble, I seem to recall that the Hong Kong and Asian Flu were contained and resolved. Have you any evidence that the masks played no part in this?

SARS and MERS were both Covid viruses. Both contained by restricted movements and masks before they spread too far, which is why you were not inconvenienced in your cosy little world.
The Countries affected by these were more geared up to deal with a later virus, so had systems in place to deal with it. They were successful in the first waves, but not the later ones.

Covid 19 spread more readily then both of those. It could have been contained, but had already spread to many parts of the World before it was notified, hence the restrictive measures being used on a worldwide basis.

[quote="Charliegolf"]

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Back on topic. I think we can have a decent season 21/22 provided that we don't get too many cases brought back from this ridiculous early dash to the sun. If people were prepared to wait just a few more weeks, and opt for a late summer holiday, then the vaccine rollout can advance just enough for some sort of normality.

I wouldn't be surprised if the wearing of masks continued in some environments for a few months yet.

Unfortunately, it is mostly out of this Govts control as we are at the mercy of the situation in many other countries as to when we can safely travel.

Tbf, I would be quite happy for every Country to insist on vaccination for the winter season. We will have vaccinated practically everybody over the age of 12 who wants it by the start of the winter season.

The Sceptics and refusniks can stay at home as far as I am concerned. Very Happy

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@brianatab, they weren't contained. The population simply got on with it. There were no lockdowns nor was mask-wearing compulsory.

When did the Far East have masking by law and lockdowns? Can you prove they were effective?

Yes it had spread: it was in Europe in the autumn of 2020. How can you stop it from spreading once it's in a country? Lock everyone indoors and prevent them from leaving even to buy food?

It is endlessly bizarre to watch the arguments become more and more convoluted. How can you contain a virus in the age of mass air travel? It's already gone before you know it. I just can't make the mental leap to see gargantuan public expense, destruction of a way of life and cruelty to entire populations forbidden from embracing at funerals as a reasonable, proportionate way to deal with a disease. Did you know that when the original lockdown decision was made in the UK that no-one actually presented an estimate of the costs of lockdown because none was actually made?

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I can see most countries insisting on full vaccination on any reason of travel for at least a year, some may say that’s an intrusion on personal freedom but we’re not living in normal times right now, we just have to get on with it.

Also, if I have to wear a face mask in an airport and/or on the flight, so be it.

After all it is free

@brianatab, the irony is that EU countries are quickly moving towards where we can travel there pretty much freely (when vaccinated) but it is our government preventing us from going! Or at least making it so convoluted or expensive that people don't bother.

Iceland simply doesn't let people who aren't vaccinated into the country. That means that those of us who are willing to have our "yoo-man rights" violated by simply being vaccinated and tested and wearing masks are absolutely free to go skiing, right now. Alt-right types are free to do what they want, but they're not free to ski today unless they follow the rules.

I think it's blindingly obvious how this is going to play out.
Anyone who's vaccinated and isn't a dick when it comes to following the rules is going to have an excellent season.

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Exactly, I got my first jab last month (my second jab is end of July) not just to be able to travel and socialise but because my job can involve dealing with people face to face and that includes those who are vulnerable. I'd consider myself a complete dick if I didn't even consider getting vaccinated.

Help!!

Is the 2021/2022 in doubt ?

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