 Poster: A snowHead
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| TTT wrote: |
| EU law is publicly available. |
Well thats that sorted then  did you read the document "everything you ever needed to know about the recognition of professional qualifications" ?
I respect your right to be anonymous but when your arguments fail to stack up you fall back on cryptic references while claiming to know people connected, claim detailed knowledge of EU law but aren't a lawyer, a BASI member or a ski instructor and in an unrelated unstated role in a different industry.
Sorry but the more I read the more I am not to sure how serious to take your arguments in support of restriction of trade.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
They are just protecting their own system
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Everyone with some sort of trade or profession would like to have a restricted protectionist market to keep wages high and foreign competition down. My plumber would like that when he goes on site in London and has to compete against Polish and Romanian plumbers and their apprentices but EU law doesn't allow it, UK fisherman aren't too happy about EU fleets fishing in "their" water, a qualified software engineer competing against thousands for French immigrants in London. etc. etc... Welcome to the Fundamental principle of Free Movement of Workers.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@skimottaret, +1 to both your posts
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@skimottaret, no as I'm skiing but will do.
I am not sure how you come to the conclusion that my arguments do not stack up which ignores the little matter that SB has been subsequently convicted. I've never claimed to be a lawyer just that I work with law and regulations all the time and that I have actually read the relevant regulation. Hence I recommended independent legal advice.
You are making some assumptions which happen to be wrong. I won't reveal my background as I'm sure you could then work out my souces which would be unfair on them. But my views are my own views. You are perfectly at liberty to believe me or not. People tend to believe what they want to believe. Ultimately my views don't count as a chat on a ski lift or over a beer will not form the basis of decisions which have and will be made by lawyers, judges, regulators and ski organisations. If only I could say it would make sense to you as I've no doubt we know a lot of the same people.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@skimottaret, I can not follow your arguments - are you suggesting that France discriminates some ski schools/individuals because of their nationality? If so, how come I am always able to choose an EN run school for me and my family (even though they are more expensive than the ESF)? Is the problem you are discussing one person/company specific or is there a general legal issue for anyone wishing to provide such services in FR? If it is a general legal issue - can you specify it please?
EU boats fish not only in EU waters, but globaly - if you bring argument, be specific please, as otherwise you put everything into one basket and it becomes a mess... I tried to follow your arguments, but it is not always clear what are you talking about.
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@TTT, Please do and focus your attention on the EC directives. SB's case is unique to him in many ways and as you know previous convictions in local courts were subsequently won on appeal. The judge in the current case, I seem to recall said something along the lines that his case is an EU matter and to be determined by a higher court. We shall see what transpires, I only bring him up as ESF Megeve are at the Ski Show. As close as you seem to have followed SB's case you must realise that he has council and most people facing an 8 month jail sentence would get legal advice. From reading FB he states he has a team of advisors.
You say I make assumptions that "happen to be wrong" but conveniently don't say what they are or try to rebut them other than say people "believe what they want to believe". Hardly a compelling argument against the points I argue.
The ski industry is a small world and if you are somehow connected or have mates who teach try understand what their backgrounds are and if they have "any axes to grind".
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@mooney058, yes... This has gotten confusing as many issues are being discussed but the key one is that in France only ski schools with a minimum of 10 FRENCH trained ski instructors can have lower paid trainees. There are other points that give the Trade union backed ESF school unfair advantages. One reason the British school owner in Megeve was arrested for having non fully qualified instructors as trainees. Brits or anyone else can set up an independent ski school as a Level 4 full certificate instructor but not have trainees or lower level instructors on staff. That is why the are more expensive as well as having to pay VAT when only the ESF don't have to.
It takes 4 - 6 years to qualify as a top level instructor and a large% (don't know exact figures) of instructors in large French schools are trainees and are paid less, effectively undercutting the non French run ski schools who are not currently allowed to have trainees as the teachers didn't qualify in the French system.
My fishing example was perhaps not well thought through but my point was that there are loads of examples of free movement of labour in the EU but a very powerful trade union that represents the ESF are using numerous unfair tactics to maintain an anti competitive monopoly.
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@skimottaret, the derogation is clear and he does not have his MoU as it was given in error as you know as you were on the webcast so neither a judge or basi believe he is qualified to work in france.
His advisors have also been convicted in France so are not independent.
I am a basi member.
They do have axes to grind. SB has annoyed a lot of people as you know from the FB page which you also contribute to. Annoying people is not a great negotiation tactic. However, it is based on legal advice.
I think you may be able to work out what I'm referring to and would ask you not to reveal publicly what has been said privately. SB was tried and convicted under EU law and does not have his MoU and carte pro so my views also happen to be official views. I've counselled legal advice and negotiation which are standard advice so forgive me if I suspect people are deceiving themselves because of what they would like to believe because my views are both the official views and standard advice.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The whole "given in error thing" really stinks as well.... SB is an ISTD BASI member, he had an MoU stamp last season and then mysteriously his new stamp doesn't arrive in the post only a few weeks prior to his court case. BASI give no explanation other than it was an "administrative error" and funny enough the people who administer the MoU stamps is none other than the ESF trade union I keep referring to.
Trying to effect change usually annoys those who stand to lose something. I applaud SB for standing up for the rights of L2 and L3 BASI instructors but do agree that he has made his fair share of mistakes and a lot of enemies along the way.
Sorry didn't appreciate you are a BASI member as you said earlier in this thread
| TTT wrote: |
| I'm just a punter skier, ski about 50 days a year with people at all levels of BASI system and locals brought up skiing. Do a few weeks training each but just for fun. May do the instructor thing at some point but a certain thread may well have put me off. My interest in the debate comes more from a professional and legal background, working internationally and the psychological biases people show. |
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Could be a BASI snowboarder? Otherwise Not being a BASI member I continue to be baffled by the "error" re MoU and further by the idea that a conviction in a French regional court someone represents EU law.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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" I... ski about 50 days a year " at least we know who TTT isn't ! 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| @mooney058, yes... This has gotten confusing as many issues are being discussed but the key one is that in France only ski schools with a minimum of 10 FRENCH trained ski instructors can have lower paid trainees. |
Let's not forget that this is just as much an issue for the smaller French ski schools (e.g. ESI) as the British ones.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
@mooney058, yes... This has gotten confusing as many issues are being discussed but the key one is that in France only ski schools with a minimum of 10 FRENCH trained ski instructors can have lower paid trainees. There are other points that give the Trade union backed ESF school unfair advantages. One reason the British school owner in Megeve was arrested for having non fully qualified instructors as trainees. Brits or anyone else can set up an independent ski school as a Level 4 full certificate instructor but not have trainees or lower level instructors on staff. That is why the are more expensive as well as having to pay VAT when only the ESF don't have to.
It takes 4 - 6 years to qualify as a top level instructor and a large% (don't know exact figures) of instructors in large French schools are trainees and are paid less, effectively undercutting the non French run ski schools who are not currently allowed to have trainees as the teachers didn't qualify in the French system.
My fishing example was perhaps not well thought through but my point was that there are loads of examples of free movement of labour in the EU but a very powerful trade union that represents the ESF are using numerous unfair tactics to maintain an anti competitive monopoly. |
There seem to be a number of issues raised even in this one post.
1) Anti competitive practices. The difficulty of competing with the ESF because they can cut costs by using trainees. Trainees are paid less but they are paid decently. What will happen is competing schools will get filled by gap year students destroying the local economy for those who need to earn a living. Top certs will be paid less than trainees are now. Oh and you lot won't get cheaper lessons, just less money will go to the instructors and more to the ski school owners. Welcome to North America.
2) Free movement of labour. You don't have to set up a business to work in France, you just need to get a job working for a company based in France. Qualified Brits can teach in France. Presumably Brits can train and work in France if they join an ESF school.
3) The French qualifications or equivalent are really hard. No comment.
Who really stands to gain? Sticking up for BASI 2s and 3s oh yes that's what it's all about  .
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You know it makes sense.
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I think it was just an error, although I suspect that SB is so unpopular he is a hindrance to negotiations. I think SB is only interested in his own agenda. He has clearly indicated that he is not interested in other people because he would rather no one can live and work in the EU just because he can't. France is the one country that ski instructors rather than ski school owners can make a decent living so he is certainly not interested in the well being of instructors.
If you want to make change you do it from a position of strength by making sure you are qualified yourself and you negotiate rather than being confrontational.
I don't instruct therefore I am not a ski instructor.
SB wants to take away my right to work in the EU and therefore ski as often as I do so he has certainly no interest in my rights or the free movement of labour.
EU law is enacted in EU countries and therefore SB was tried and convicted under EU law.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@TTT, to be clear, nobody can get convicted under EU law. I ain't an English lawyer but EU has no competence in criminal matters, this is upto Member States. your generalisation might not be accurate i m affraid  eu role in criminal matters is limited to cooperation etc
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Poster: A snowHead
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@mooney058, fully agree you are correct which is why I said enacted but should have said EU regulation/agreement. The point I was trying to make was that the french are following the EU rules and regulations, in particular the rules on recognition of equivalent qualifications and the derogation which was the basis of his conviction so I don't see how he can win by taking this matter further. Some people seem so emotional about this matter that they don't see that the french are just following what has been agreed. Whether the rules are right or not is a separate matter.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@TTT, would you care to point specifically to the rules and the derogation to which you are (specifically) referring?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Aarghh, annoying link!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Pedantica, that the derogation exists has never been a point of debate, the head of the ESF has given lectures on lobbying as a result of that success! Quite remarkabke that he won it on the grounds of 'public security' when the Spanish rule that directors of security operations must live in Spain was deemed unjustifiable on the same grounds.
I believe it applies to five professions in total, not just skiing. Will try to find them
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Thu 30-10-14 9:28; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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TTT, Doesn't really matter to the debate but I struggle to take you seriously when I read
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I am a basi member.
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| Quote: |
TTT wrote:
I'm just a punter skier, ski about 50 days a year with people at all levels of BASI system and locals brought up skiing. Do a few weeks training each but just for fun. May do the instructor thing at some point but a certain thread may well have put me off.
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I don't instruct therefore I am not a ski instructor.
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@skimottaret, thanks, so it's only ski instructor, dive instructor and parachute instructor. I was sure mountain guide and something else were in there, oh well.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@albinomountainbadger, I agree with your point above that the smaller French ESI schools are at a disadvantage as well as foreign owned schools.
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Thanks all. I might even try to read them all and make up my own mind.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@TTT, you are making several assumptions about Simon Butler which are not true.
If you had spoken to or knew him you would realise that many things you have written about him are not based upon fact.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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So who is this two man band at the Ski Show then?
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was that at the show ?
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You know it makes sense.
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@skimottaret, according to skipedia.co.uk, "two (big) blokes" were having an anti-ESF demo there earlier.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Dunk, what assumptions are incorrect? I have absolutely no problem with being corrected in the interests of healthy debate. You are absolutely correct that I don't know SB and my views are only based on reading the EU regulations.
@skimottaret, I don't really know what your issue is - I've been totally honest unless you are saying that you have to work as an instructor to have an understanding of law?
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Poster: A snowHead
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I am just puzzled by a lot of your cryptic replies and where you are coming from in the debate. So are you a BASI member but have not done any instructor courses
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I have a professional and legal requirement to maintain confidentiality so that is what I do in all matters. Any professional would understand that without question. I never said I have not done any instructor courses.
I support recognition of equivalent qualifications, respect for the law, respect for other cultures, people having adequate language skills which is currently not the case and a system that facilitates high quality instruction. I don't respect xenophobia.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
| I support recognition of equivalent qualifications |
Therefore, you should support Simon Butler's right to have his qualification recognised in France, since it is exactly the same British qualification that others are using are which is deemed to be equivalent to the French qualification.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@TTT,
Sorry but if you have a professional and Legal, requirement to maintain confidentiality then you would only give your own personal opinion on an open forum, and not divulge any hint of any professional and especially legal ties directly or indirectly to this case. Any professional so tied up would understand NOT ! hinting to anything that could compromise their confidentiality.
Any legal professional would know that just because a member nations own legal system has found someone guilty ( even though others have previously found this person innocent ) does not mean that the decision could not be overturned in the European court. Many member states have decisions overturned every single year.
If a snowsports professional you should understand the ethos of equivalence between member nations professional bodies and that someone who has been working in another member nation for the length of time SB has done so will have met equivelancy or has the French authorities and ESF been asleep for best part of a 20 years?
There is an issue with the MoU and there are time limits for this to be provided or full reasons in writing for it not to be ( I am sure I read somewhere that this was not done within the time scale and any legal professional would understand how serious that point alone can be ).
I do not think anyone is saying SB could not have done this a different and possibly less stressful way to himself his family and employees, but the ESF are definitely no better and rightly or wrongly ( I personally side slightly more to rightly other than when they start throwing people in jails and dragging them up in front of a judge ) want to protect French jobs and will do so till the EC tell them otherwise. Because by doing so they protect those jobs to the absolute limit of the EU directives not like this country does on too many occasions makes their own interpretation and gets it all wrong to the detriment of local workers.
And the last point " The French are required by EU directives to look at the professional experience and if it would compensate for any substantial difference in training which IMO 20 plus years would make up any difference".
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@laundryman, the levels 4 that I know have all done the ET or the previous test so most certainly do have equivalent qualifications to the French. If SB can demonstrate he has the equivalent qualification to the French in terms of the previous test or the ET he most certainly should be allowed to work in France subject to the criminal record test. He has been unable to demonstrate this to the french authorities or basi. I also believe that they be able to demonstrate adequate language skills which are not currently required.
@speed098, I think you will find that I have not revealed any facts that is not public knowledge.
I agree that the SB decision could be overturned but I don't see how under the EU rules.
I'm not a snowsport professional as I don't work in the industry but I'm a consumer. I think your last points are covered by the EU derogation rule which specifically allows the ET regardless of experience. Whether the derogation is right or wrong is a point of debate but the fact that it exists and that SB has not satisfied the requirements of EU rules is a matter of fact. I understand that SB not getting french grandfather exemption was down to SB. Therefore unless there is a change in EU rules it seems that SB's best options is to work in CH as he can not demonstrate he is qualified to work independently under the current EU rules. You may disagree with the rules but they are what they are. It is down to SB that he has not complied and only has himself to blame.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@TTT, you don't know all the British ITSDs practising in France. There are many of SB's vintage who have not done the ET or its precursor. That he has the same qualification as them, the ITSD, has been demonstrated. The rest of your post is clutching at straws.
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@laundryman, im sure you are right that others grandfathered but saying the authorities, judge, EU rules and basi is wrong and SB is right strikes me as clutching at straws.
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@TTT, the EU rules as are as they are. The idea that the authorities (in any country) always apply rules correctly is laughable. The judge said that he was not competent to gainsay the Prefet's application of the EU laws, so we shall have to see what a competent court decides. It's hardly unheard of for the decisions of courts of first instance to be overturned. It's even happened in previous cases concerning similar charges.
Once more, grandfathering is to do with old-style BASI 1s being awarded the ISTD by BASI, which they have done in the case of Simon Butler and of others.
If you can find where the recent judgement mentions any legal requirement which Simon Butler does not meet, but which the other grandfathered BASI ISTDs do, which would allow the authorities to deny a Carte Pro in the one case but not in the others, please let me know.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The derogation is clear. Grandfather was just a short term exemption from the rules. I correctly anticipated he would be convicted under the EU rules but I fully accept I can't guarantee future decisions as you can't.
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Debate on a French sports TV show at the moment about why Zidane should be allowed to teach in Spain without the Spanish qualification. Be quite funny to play a little word swap with skiing here (but I guess we don't have that many former professional skiers).
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FAQ
