 Poster: A snowHead
|
I think "Intermediate, Advanced and Expert" as terms are almost certainly meaningless beyond any hope of recovery.
PADI (the scuba diving people) have (as far as I understand it):
* Open Water demonstrates the ability to dive in limited conditions without professional supervision
* Advanced Open Water demonstrates the ability to dive in most conditions open to recreational divers
* Divemaster demonstrates the ability to lead others, and leads on to the instructor path
* A whole bag of specialities that each cover a specific skill (eg, diving at night, advanced buoyancy, navigation)
* Master Scuba Diver that's basically a badge that says you've done a whole shedload of training and diving
http://www.padi.com/scuba/padi-courses/default.aspx
Maybe there's something to be learned from them? (Accepting of course the many differences between the two sports!)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
finestgreen, sorry, didn't think after reading your post.
Yes, beg, int, exp has been beaten to death a few times round here with no hope of sensible recovery in my view.i
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Tim Heeney,
I reckon that by the time you are comfortable skiing all of,
"Short Turns
GS Turns
Steeps
Bumps (medium grade/ not ice)
Variables
Powder "
You're probably a little past asking how good you are?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
fatbob,
| Quote: |
If you can't ski moguls you can't ski - just make it a moguls test and that'll probably be a fair proxy for everything else
|
seriously?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
finestgreen,
| Quote: |
I think "Intermediate, Advanced and Expert" as terms are almost certainly meaningless beyond any hope of recovery.
|
They are whopping generalizations i'd have to agree. One mans expert, is another mans advanced.
Instead, go with whatever can be officially recognized. Surely BASI themselves have short turns L1, L2 and L3. GS Turns ( or some other name) L1 ~ L3 etc. Isn't that easy to understand, instruct / teach / coach and assess to that system standards.
Just lets do something without having the baggage of having to become an 'Instructor'.
That's all i'm suggesting.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| Quote: |
Instead, go with whatever can be officially recognized. Surely BASI themselves have short turns L1, L2 and L3. GS Turns ( or some other name) L1 ~ L3 etc.
|
Good idea, but leaves an enormous gap at the bottom of the ladder.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
under a new name,
| Quote: |
Tim Heeney,
I reckon that by the time you are comfortable skiing all of,
"Short Turns
GS Turns
Steeps
Bumps (medium grade/ not ice)
Variables
Powder "
You're probably a little past asking how good you are?
|
It was just a quick list of the usual skill suspects that are talked about. For what i'm really getting at - see post above to finestgreen
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Tim Heeney wrote: |
| grades 1 ,2, 3 or Bronze, Silver, Gold. |
If you are trying to show progression having only three grades makes it fairly difficult. "Yes, you are a Silver grade skier. I know you've been at Silver for the past 10 weeks, but it really is a fair description of where your skiing is at". I don't think a conversation like that is helpful for a skier in terms of identifying the ways in which their skiing could be improved, not is it terribly motivating for those who are motivated by achieving specific goals.
I don't think replicating the BASI assessment method is terribly helpful for recreational skiers, and saying that we should have something as simple as the BASSI system doesn't reflect the reality of the situation IMO. BASI has (from a relatively high entry point so no account taken of progression up to that point) an assessment matrix of four levels each containing five strands, all of which dealt with particular skiing outcomes. Each square in the grid used to be assessed on a six point scale, then changed to a four point scale (now might be simply at the standard/not at the standard), with a general catch-all about "appropriate" body management (an inputs measure). Failing to reach the pass mark or required standard in any of the strands meant the entire level was failed. And that was just for the technical assessments. Teaching assessments and mountain safety assessments have their own matrix.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
finestgreen,
| Quote: |
Quote:
Instead, go with whatever can be officially recognized. Surely BASI themselves have short turns L1, L2 and L3. GS Turns ( or some other name) L1 ~ L3 etc.
Good idea, but leaves an enormous gap at the bottom of the ladder.
|
Well, there appears to be many people taking the BASI L1 instructor route that have no intention to instruct and i think that MORE people would take the L1 with aspirations to at least get to L2 ( a decent skier) under instruction knowing they wouldn't have to do any shadowing/ no CRB check / no Basic life saving course - just get to the skiing standard of that BASI level and be officially recognised at achieving it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
rob@rar, I haven't done any BASI stuff.
| Quote: |
I don't think replicating the BASI assessment method is terribly helpful for recreational skiers
|
Alot of people undertake the BASI training system as you have posted for many reasons which have nothing to do with formally becoming or wanting to become an 'Instructor'. It shouldn't be that hard to judge / award to the 'skiing' standard alone and dump every thing else.
I would think that L1 to L2 would be a normal bellmouth distribution curve of achievement that keen skiers under instruction would achieve. L3 - obviously that would be quite exceptional and failing L1 would happen to - but NOT for the majority!
It's not about what 'recreational skiers' need in their development at all IMO. It's about passing a BASI test - a serious commitment to something you're serious about. Now suppliers of ski training can do whatever they feel like doing for their 'recreational clients', it may have nothing at all to do with BASI anything, but, if offered, BASI grading less instructor bits, then i think it would be well received. 'BASI' is the important certification.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| Tim Heeney wrote: |
| It's not about what 'recreational skiers' need in their development at all IMO. |
OK, I understand. But from my perspective if you are going to have some sort of recognised achievement scale it needs to take account of all grades of skier, not just the top end of recreational skiers. The Snowlife Awards do this, the IOS Levels do this, as do most of the ability levels that other ski schools I'm familiar with. There's a lot of similarity across these different schemes, which I guess is reassuring. The BASI assessment scheme is significantly different, because it is trying to do something completely different. If something like this is aimed only at the top end of recreational skiers I'd say stick with the BASI route - I appreciate some people won't have much motivation to to the non-technical skiing parts (shadowing and teaching practice) but IMO these are incredibly valuable aspects of the qualification as you develop a much deeper understanding of how skiing works if you come at it from the point of view of having to teach it in a structured way. The other bits are fairly insignificant: the Child Protection course is now done online, and while you have to find a couple of days for a 1st aid course if you don't already have one, I don't think that is a complete waste of time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
rob@rar, I'll go off now and consider this. The real world experience you and Scott have i respect. You're definitely right about the Basic Life Saving course!
Cheers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Tim Heeney wrote: |
rob@rar, I'll go off now and consider this. The real world experience you and Scott have i respect. You're definitely right about the Basic Life Saving course!
Cheers. |
I know that the "teaching stuff" can seem to be irrelevant and a pain when you are considering starting on the BASI pathway, I certainly thought of it in that way. But with hindsight I think it is extremely valuable. I split my shadowing hours between the UK (mainly Milton Keynes) and the Alps (mainly Les Arcs and Courchevel) and had to get them done quickly as my L1 and L2 courses were just three months apart. At the start I thought it was unnecessary hassle, but I soon realised it was incredibly useful from both a teaching perspective and giving me a broader understanding of how skiing works by looking closely at how people do it. As an aside, it was also pretty good for testing your nerves, as being asked to demo in front of paying customers for the first time in Courchevel 1850 meant for me I had to be pretty confident about what I was doing! I still shadow when I have the chance, even though I have long since passed any requirement to log hours.
Similarly the "skiing like a beginner" (Central Theme in BASI talk) is incredibly valuable. Almost without fail the weaknesses I see in performance skiing (including my own) are apparent when you get people to slow down and use plough turns. So if you can see those weaknesses in movement patterns, rate and range of movement, blend of steering methods, etc, when you slow people down, they you have an opportunity to address those weaknesses. In IOS we think this is such a valuable opportunity we developed some all-day clinics to do just that, and I think they are some of the best clinics we do. One of my best skiing sessions last season was on a BASI technical development week when we spent the morning doing blindfold snowplough turns, among a range of similar things. It was such an eye-opener, if you excuse the pun, in terms of what I was doing at the start of the turn, which was the key problem I was having in mu high speed long radius turns. Taking that understanding and feelings form the blindfold snowploughs in to my longs was one of the ways I addressed the problem. By the end of the season my longs were significantly better than they have ever been.
So, this is all a rather long winded way of saying "don't discount the 'teaching stuff'". It can be a powerful development tool for good skiers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| finestgreen wrote: |
I think "Intermediate, Advanced and Expert" as terms are almost certainly meaningless beyond any hope of recovery.
|
yeah, in my opinion anyone who describes themselves as Advanced should be pretty much almost sponsored in their choosen discipline...
on the other side i think people are far to quick to move themselves out the of the beginner catagory.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Tim Heeney, just to also say that the shadowing is a very useful tool in improving your skiing, the first aid useful skill to have especially if your in the mountains and then the online child protection course is easy and quick to do.
I found having to do perfect demo snow plough turns as part of shadowing in front of the paying public and the even harder plough parallel really made me understand lots about weighting of skis etc and also helped me improve my "normal" skiing.
you also start to appreciate that if you find it hard, how would it feel to a complete beginner.....
So rather than trying to find a "punter" assessment and way of improving, I'd say the BASI L1 is a good level to pass/aspire/work to
regards.
Greg
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Tim Heeney wrote: |
fatbob,
| Quote: |
If you can't ski moguls you can't ski - just make it a moguls test and that'll probably be a fair proxy for everything else
|
seriously? |
Yeah why not? How often do you hear people say "I'm awesome at moguls but suck at carving or powder"? Not very often. How many people proclaim themselves to be expert or advanced, except moguls? Lots. What are the most dreaded elements of L2/3 exams etc for many? Moguls.
To survive moguls requires a fair amount of lower level skill. To ski them well, down the fall line requires fairly advanced skill blend. To ski them expertly, zipperline at speed, requires expert level overall skills, So it works. For people who don't like them it's probably because their skills perception is ahead of their actual level. And they really show up lack of ski fitness as you can't fake it by parking and riding like carving or other jazz.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
fatbob, agree. Although I don't think it should be just a mogul test, for many instructors on BASI courses that's the bit which is most likely to trip them up.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
I'm awesome at moguls but suck at carving or powder
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
Addition to the above - I can ski maybe 10 moguls inelegantly then stop and have a wheeze over my poles. So that's my level - 10 bump wheezer.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
I'm about a 6.
By Jove, I think he's got it!! 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| fatbob wrote: |
| Tim Heeney wrote: |
fatbob,
| Quote: |
If you can't ski moguls you can't ski - just make it a moguls test and that'll probably be a fair proxy for everything else
|
seriously? |
Yeah why not? How often do you hear people say "I'm awesome at moguls but suck at carving or powder"? Not very often. How many people proclaim themselves to be expert or advanced, except moguls? Lots. What are the most dreaded elements of L2/3 exams etc for many? Moguls.
To survive moguls requires a fair amount of lower level skill. To ski them well, down the fall line requires fairly advanced skill blend. To ski them expertly, zipperline at speed, requires expert level overall skills, So it works. For people who don't like them it's probably because their skills perception is ahead of their actual level. And they really show up lack of ski fitness as you can't fake it by parking and riding like carving or other jazz. |
I don't really get peoples obsession with moguls, yes they test your skills in a variety of ways but they're not the key to expert skiing. I taught some teenage comp bump skiers (top 10 in the eastern US) this summer, and they were good off piste, but not great, and in the race course they were a bit average too, so yes, people who ski bumps amazingly but lack other skill sets do exist.
Personally I can ski them fine, but enjoy other aspects of skiing a lot more so don't ski them much.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
jimmer, personally, I really like moguls. Possibly because even if off piste isn't so great, you can often find some nice bumps and so there's always a challenge. And personally (I don't spend a lot of time in gates - almost really none at all...) they're the epitome of a recreational - non-racers - skill set. To my mind anyway.
I wonder if your Eastern US teens were not so amazing off piste due to their home geography? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
^ the cool thing about moguls is that you need to apply a constantly changing blend of Edge, Pressure and Rotation control to ski them properly.
if you stick a bunch of skiers in a bump field then the skilful skiers will very quickly stick out.
the main reason people avoid moguls is because they cant ski them well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Quote: |
the main reason people avoid moguls is because they cant ski them well
|
not because they smash your knees to bits ? most rec skiers just want to enjoy themselves cruising on or off piste and like racing moguls can become a bit macho for some...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
^ lets be honest, most rec skiers are bit "lazy" and simply don't have the skills to ski a mogul zip line.
the reason people generally don't enjoy skiing moguls is because they find them challenging.
any flaw in your technique cant be hidden or compensated for. people may not *like* skiing moguls : however to do it well clearly requires lots of skill (constantly changing all 3 E,P,R steering elements) + enough fitness.
FWIW : I know a few girls who ski bumps better than me.
primarily because they are skilful skiers with finesse. so its not a macho thing (brut force alone wont work in the bumps)
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
Haggis_Trap, not sure they are lazy , they just want to have fun and moguls aren't always a whole lotta fun same as skiing on ice or in rain and sleet isnt a whole lotta fun
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
skimottaret, there is a fair bit of satisfaction in getting down the bumps and thinking you did it pretty well (compared to the usual yard sale anyway).
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
moshamarc, for sure always nice to get some satisfaction out of a bumps run, a steep line, a narrow gully or other challenging terrain and conditions but I for one dont ski moguls all day long and dont view it as some ultimate test of skiing..
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
Having never had a lesson (i've got an IOS clinic booked though) I've found it hard to judge my ability (or lack of) against anything meaningful, particularly when it comes to confusing equipment jargon. With 2 weeks over 3 years on snow, I'm probably in the beginner category, although I am largely parallel on blues and OK on good condition reds though the snowplough and associated thigh burn can creep back in. I use the IOS scale, and place myself as a 5 or 6 depending on the weather... none of the more wordy 'beg, int. exp' type things tend to be helpful.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
skimottaret, I would humbly submit that skiing bumps with appropriate technique does not smash your knees to bits...
It can be quite hard work on your quads however.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
"Appropriate" technique is the operative word:)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
skimottaret,
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| under a new name wrote: |
jimmer, personally, I really like moguls. Possibly because even if off piste isn't so great, you can often find some nice bumps and so there's always a challenge. And personally (I don't spend a lot of time in gates - almost really none at all...) they're the epitome of a recreational - non-racers - skill set. To my mind anyway.
I wonder if your Eastern US teens were not so amazing off piste due to their home geography? |
Oh for sure, they weren't that good (still really pretty good) at off piste because they'd not really skied terrain like that before, not because they weren't great skiers - they adapted really fast, but my point still stands that initially they lacked the skills to ski well in those conditions. Being good at moguls doesn't automatically make you good everywhere else.
For me there is almost always better off piste to ski than moguls, no-one ever asks for a mogul class and really due to high snowfall and low skier numbers, there actually aren't many around.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
jimmer, as the line goes, " you lucky, lucky, etc"
I think you make a good point. In Europe, as at e.g. The PSB people do ask for moguls lessons and there are quite a few around.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
I like the story about the journo who's doing a skinterview (see what I did there) with Jean-Claude Killy on the Grande Motte.
As they're skiing down, the journo turns to JCK and asks, "Shall we go down there, Jean-Claude?" pointing to the Leisse, a black bumps run. "Forget that!" says Jean-Claude. "Bumps are for tourists!"
Was he a crap skier? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Sparing journo's blushes?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
jimmer yeah it's not automatic but there is pretty good correlation. Would your freeskiing not be improved if you became a moguls god?
Agree wholeheartedly that they aren't necessarily the most fun thing to do, and can be off putting for the recreational skier but in the face of the prospect of a barrage of individual sub tests on skiing minutiae it seems a convenient shortcut to me in determining whether someone is Pre-development, developing, partially skilled or fully skilled at skiing, recognising that only a small subset ever become fully skilled.
I reckon I could determine if someone was the type of ski partner I wanted to ski with all day on the basis of a short bump run early in the day, simply by observing the difference in their approach, speed, demeanour, chat etc from that on a cruising run.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
fatbob, whilst I agree that bump skiing is in general a pretty good yardstick of someone's overall competence, I also think that bumps, like the Eurotest, have an age and physical stress limit that other skiing disciplines are less affected by.
I've done very little bump skiing in the last three years since my knee was injured because it's just too painful so does that now make me a crap skier? I also knew a BASI Trainer that flatly refused to teach anything above L2 because they didn't want the strain of skiing L3/L4 at demo level anymore so does that mean they're no good either?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
fatbob, they are the most fun thing to do....
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
