 Poster: A snowHead
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Allowing temporary lower qualified workers seems the solution which is effectively what happens in AU, Aosta and CH.
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I gonna quote that for posterity 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Always felt that L3s should be able to work peak periods in France as part of their training and opening up the training concept for other larger schools with trainers. I think should aim to be professional rather than amateur.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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On the subject of amateur can't say overly impressed with a brit half term instructor telling me what to do contrary to a very large and very simple sign and what the liftie was telling me. Instructors should be able to read very simple ski instructions and have a very basic conversation with a ski area operator in the local language.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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There's a lot of noise about the ESF "profiteering" but ski schools are commercial operations and a few quick calculations suggest that the British ski schools might be making more money "per hour" than the ESF.
In low season I can get 5 x 2.5 hour ESF lessons for €85. With a group of 12 (and for much of the season groups are smaller) that's €81 (currently £63) per hour gross income for the school.
Hardly extortion though at peak periods (lessons go up to €135) a group of 12 would earn the school €130/hour and a group of 16 €172.
BASS Les Gets charges £210 for 8 hours. In a group of 6 that's £157 an hour. More than the ESF gets for a group of 16 in peak periods and far more than they get for their average group the rest of the season. And if they accept your booking and then only 4 people turn up for the course, you still get a week - BASS threaten to knock you down to a couple of privates.
The BASS lessons might still be better value - that's not the point at issue here. It's just that the implication that the ESF rake in loads of money is inaccurate and irritating.
I doubt whether many British skiers are going to decide not to go to France because of this row (especially if they like having lessons at high quality British ski schools and don't mind paying the premium as they'll find almost all British ski schools are in France). And if some do desert France the numbers probably won't be sufficient to make any difference to the peak week lift queues. Unfortunately. 
I suspect there are a lot more British skiers who would be dismayed at the disappearance of the traditional "catered chalet" but there aren't many of those anywhere else either.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@pam w,
It is not quite as clear as you have said because the ESF can run training schools and thus employ "staigeries" who are paid a lower wage than the fully qualified instructors. Non ESF schools can not do this and can only employ the top qualified instructors who rightly need to be paid more than a trainee.
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It is not quite as clear as you have said
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I think it's every bit as clear as I said. I was looking at the ski schools income - their outgoings are quite another matter. I'm sure you're right that average earnings for a French instructor are lower than for the British instructors - I've often argued that, in fact, when people have asserted (generally without adducing any evidence) that French instructors are the highest paid in the world.
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I also suspect that during those low season weeks the ESF use their more senior instructors to keep them employed (rather than the stagieres) which further reduces the school's take.
Am I right in thinking that the ESF instructors are all self employed rather than employees of the ski school and is it the same for the other ski schools?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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But if a trainee is paid say half that of a fully qualified instructor within the ESF it does make a difference because it may be the fully qualified ESF instructor actually gets paid more per hour than the non ESF who is also fully qualified. The trainees allow the ESF to charge less per lesson than other schools.
I understand what you are saying pam w, but I would like to see the actual figures for how much the non ESF get paid per hour and how much the fully qualified ESF and trainees get paid.
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| speed098 wrote: |
| but I would like to see the actual figures for how much the non ESF get paid per hour and how much the fully qualified ESF and trainees get paid. |
Why do you think you have the right to see what people earn?
Publish the business details of the company you work for, the salary of your MD/CEO, Directors, yourself & trainees & I will publish the figures for the ESF.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@speed098
Non ESF schools can employ stagiares, but they must be registered as a Centre de Formation, which requires having at least 10 fully qualified instructors, who gained their qualifications through the French system, not any other. Magic in Motion, Oxygene, etc. are examples of this.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Why do you think you have the right to see what people earn?
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and why do you need to know? The ESF sell their instruction cheaper than most of their competitors and I doubt whether they have many instructors who don't have other jobs for the rest of the year (and some of them have other jobs in the winter too, including farming, taking up the slack at the slower times of the season).
It amuses me that some people are determined to believe, despite having not a shred of evidence, that the ESF are some kind of plutocratic elite who are able to pay themselves large amounts of money because they have excluded the competition through unfair practices including the ruthless exploitation of hordes of young trainees (all exceptionally able skiers who are queuing up for such treatment, it seems).
The same people also seem reluctant to accept that the French ski school scene is more competitive than most others. Indeed, is there more competition anywhere?
That's not to say things are perfect - but all the righteous indignation about France is a bit perplexing.
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
| Publish the business details of the company you work for, the salary of your MD/CEO, Directors, yourself & trainees & I will publish the figures for the ESF. |
If it's a listed company, director remuneration will be published.
Anyone prepared to spend a couple of quid on Companies House reports who knows my email address and can read a company report could figure out what I earn and the same goes for anyone else who works via a service company. Which is a few million individuals in the UK.
Possibly I could work out what you earn too, if I could be bothered, which I certainly can't.
Privacy, that was so 20th century.
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You know it makes sense.
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| WindOfChange wrote: |
| RedLemon wrote: |
certainly in switzerland, there's a requirement to pay the foreign workers the same wages as a swiss national.
that's not £50pw. |
Min wage is a measly CHF4000 p/m  |
OT but if you think CHF 4000/month is a luxury wage, you should try living here. A 1-2-bed flat will easily set you back close to half of that
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I just can't believe this thread is still going round and round in ever decreasing circles. 56 pages !!! Must be something better to discuss. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| pam w wrote: |
| That's not to say things are perfect |
In what ways are they imperfect?
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FAQ
