 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Nick Zotov, The speed test (Eurotest, not the entrance 'test technique' slalom) is a 34 gate GS under FIS rules...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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This is a fascinating thread. I haven't had time to read it all  but I'm not qualified to argue about the detail, anyway. It seems that the central argument is about how we balance the interests of each stakeholder in the ski instruction business. In the UK, we often focus on consumer rights to the exclusion of all else, but France typically has much more concern for the rights of producers.
Despite PG's protestations, speed trials for someone who's teaching a class of beginners how to fasten their boots is just a piece of nonsense. But I sympathise with him, too: how else can he protect his income when so many half-decent skiers would love to spend a few winters in the Alps if they could just earn enough to pay for board and lodgings.
Every business seeks to erect competitive barriers around it. As a qualified accountant, I'm certain that my own profession deliberately makes entrance exams artificially tough to keep out the riff-raff and inflate charge rates. And as a consultant, I charge more than double the £89 hour that someone was quoted by in Val D'Isere - and my working hours aren't restricted by the weather, a restricted season and a short working day. Being a ski instructor is evidently not a route to instant riches.
If you want to instruct, stop whinging, pass the exams and be glad they're there. They'll work in your own best interests once you've got over the hurdle.
And if you're a consumer concerned that the best instructors are frightened of a little race training? If the rate's too high, don't pay - you can have fun without having lessons. If your instructor was lousy, don't ever use that ski school again - its standards are too low. But if you've had a good lesson - and I've had my share of those despite all the moaning I hear - tell the instructor how great they were, tell your friends, tell the other snowheads and book another lesson for yourself.
As for me, the worst ski instructor I've ever had was Brit in Austria, back in the days when almost anyone was allowed to instruct (at least, it seemed that way at the time). She was only interested in funding an extended trip to the Alps and, native English speaker or not, she taught me nothing. Good riddance to her type, I say. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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PS Before anyone thinks I'm a smarmy rich git, those are the rates my employer gets. I don't see a fraction of it myself 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Well argued, Jonny Jones, . You talk a lot of sense.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
| Despite PG's protestations, speed trials for someone who's teaching a class of beginners how to fasten their boots is just a piece of nonsense. But I sympathise with him, too: how else can he protect his income when so many half-decent skiers would love to spend a few winters in the Alps if they could just earn enough to pay for board and lodgings. |
Jonny Jones, Hang on a minute, they're not "my" interests - I'm just a disinterested observer! Not even close to being in the ski tourism industry.....
I just tell it as I see it - I do have some doubts over whether someone who can't carve an accurate and fast trajectory 'to the edge' has the technique to teach, leading from the front, those upper intermediates and above who want to learn control at speed. You can only instruct a person to do so much - demonstration is important, and pupils should be encouraged to watch and try to copy their teachers. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery - assuming the role model knows what he's doing of course!
Plenty of trainees, working up towards their speed test, to help those beginners fasten their boots...
The race performance that Brits back home see on Ski Sunday is only the tip of the iceberg. The invisible remainder of snow time represents countless hours of graft, fun, and just about every type of skiing there is. In a way I agree, attempting to cram race technique alone for the Eurotest is not for some Brits who lack the hours on the snow that so many French have had from 3 years up. Some Brits may have to focus almost exclusively on working towards a one-off GS performance, and probably find it hard to give other areas of their ski training sufficient attention as a result. Whereas for many French it's second nature, the culmination of all they've learned, on but mainly off the slalom course. In France, with very few exceptions, the skiers who are the best racers in a club are also the best all-round skiers, in the technical events, freestyle, off-piste, you name it. But it's not just about skill and technique. They're also the ones who listen to their instructors, and learn quickly. They're often the ones with the best attitude, and are determined, single-minded, observant. They hate failure. Drive, determination, I reckon can be positive when teaching - racers hate defeat, but when teaching - if their pupils are slow to learn - they are quick to see it as a personal set-back!
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 30-03-04 17:55; edited 1 time in total
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This has been an excellent discussion - loads of people chipping in with different perspectives. Loads of informed (as well as my less-informed) opinion - brilliant!
Thanks PG, DG, Jonpim and the countless others for a very interesting debate.
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| Quote: |
Jonny Jones, Hang on a minute, they're not "my" interests - I'm just a disinterested observer! Not even close to being in the ski tourism industry.....
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Sorry PG. I read what you said, looked at your location and jumped to conclusions. A dangerous mistake.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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When you are in ski school the best place to be is right behind the instructor. We learn a lot by copying - I have always thought those sessions drawing the turn out on the piste with a ski pole a complete waste of time - but we need to copy from the right template (I dont suppose the Goldsmith mentioned here is our mighty Goldsmith ). For the right template the instructor must have perfect technique. So, how to ensure pefect technique? PG suggests that ability to ski down a slalom course at speed is as good a test as any. Has anyone got a better one?
Of course the instructor must also have the right attitude (as here ) so just skiing ability is not enough. You need both.
As Jonny Jones says: when you find one, hold on to him, tip him well, and tell the rest of us about him.
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| Quote: |
From your experience, easiski, if one was to take BASI 3, is it expected that they need to perform the "test technique" or equivalent?
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That's the whole point of equivalence - they are not required to do it because they are considered equivalent by ENSA (École National de Ski Alpin).
This whole debate has moved away from the main point, which is that Simon Butler was working illegally and had been punished by the law. Aparently (I've heard from BASI) when the qualifications were equalised between the European countries some BASI 1's had the opportunity to receive their "equivalence". All they had to do was to complete the Off piste module within 2 years and then to apply for it. SB apparently did not do the module for more than 2 years. He missed the boat, and will now have to do the Eurotest if he wishes to stay legal. End of story.
Nick Zotov, the Eurotest is much closer to a FIS course than the Fleche. Long, steep and tough. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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An interesting mix of opinion and prejudice here. This is not meant as criticism, it's what makes it fascinating.
From the little authoritative information that has been published (like maybe what was the text of the charge?) it is difficult to reach a fair conclusion.
From what I can see branding SB and J B-B as "Rogues" is somewhat unfair. They have both operated for many years in Megeve, bringing in a lot of trade. In high season Simon will have around 100 guests in resort, James somewhat less.
I haven't sampled J B-B's operation but I have stayed with Simon many times as well as with other operators and independently in other resorts such as St Anton, Zermatt, Val d'Isere, Courchevel, Hochsolden, Morzine and others in France and Switzerland.
The level of communication and the standard of teaching given by Simon and his team is in my experience excellent, otherwise I and the many others who keep going back would not do so. I can certainly tell you that we do not do it for the luxuriousness of the accommodation or the quality of the wine!
It would appear that the main reason for the prosecution has little to do with his own qualifications (I have seen his BASI 1 certificate) but has more to do with employing less qualified instructors while not having "Centre de Formation" status.
Arguments about whether or not the instruction is paid for or whether or not he is taking business from ESF are not really relevant. The punters are paying for the instruction, whether it is included in the price or paid for separately and whether or not he takes business from ESF is irrelevant to the law.
I very much suspect that there is a reasonably level playing field here. If he wanted to get Centre de Formation status and employ trainee instructors is there anything to stop him?
Simon is passionate about ski instruction. His guests and the instructors he trains have high praise for him. However at the level at which he is now operating that is not sufficient. He needs to cover off all of the things that should be covered in a properly run business. These include a full knowledge of the regulations affecting the business. No business ever operates 100 percent of the time within the law although most try (stand up anyone who's NEVER let their tax disc run out of date, exceeded the speed limit or had an after hours drink  ). If he bends the rules too far or upsets too many people he makes himself vulnerable to the competition and should expect them to complain.
His own views and those of the ESF are largely irrelevant, what will count at the end of the day are the views of the Court.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Greytop, welcome! And an excellent post. For one who has met James and Simon you give a surprisingly balanced summary.
I understand your objection to the word "rogue", but maybe it was being used in terms of the third definition in Webster's dictionary: "One who is pleasantly mischievous or frolicsome; hence, often used as a term of endearment." rather than some of the less complimentary versions. 
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| Greytop wrote: |
From the little authoritative information that has been published (like maybe what was the text of the charge?) it is difficult to reach a fair conclusion. |
The accused were found guilty on two counts under French law no 8–640 of the 16th of July 1984. This regulates the teaching of sporting activites (activité physique ou sportive) as either a primary or secondary employment, fulltime, part-time or as a season worker. The law stipulates that teachers need the appropriate French state exam or a recognized foreign equivalent (Décret no 2002-1269 of 18th October 2002 applicable to article 43 of the above mentioned law).
Butler and Barrett-Boyce were neither in possession of the French ski instructor’s examination or a recognized foreign equivalent such as Basi ISTD nor was their ski instruction business registered with the Prefecture of the Haute Savoie.
Barrett-Boyce was also found guilty under sections 3 and 4 of the French Liquor Licensing acts for running an illegal bar.
© 2004, PisteHors.com/gg
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You know it makes sense.
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Thanks for joining us, Greytop.
I don't believe anyone is suggesting that customers may not be entirely satisfied with the services they have received. I think Easiski explained that the Centre de Formation status can only be obtained by someone with equivalence, the BASI I alone does not suffice. There is nothing to stop an independent ski school from applying for this status, as long as it has a suitably qualified person as part of its management team. As far as I understand Simon Butler's own post to this forum, he did not possess this qualification.
Nor is the issue of the ESF particularly relevant, it was a state prosecution, and not one initiated by the ESF. Providing instruction on an inclusive basis without either having the necessary equivalence oneself, or employing intructors as trainees without the required status as a centre de formation to do so, if that is what has happened, would seem to have precipitated the proceedings.
It's just a shame that a good business that apparently pleases his customers could not have been set up in such a way as to keep the authorities happy - after all, many other British-run operations were quite content to do so, and have managed to remain in business, and prosper, from within the system.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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With respect davidoff that ain't the charge, nor is it the decision of the Court. It's reportage of the result.
What would you say is the meaning of "possession of the French ski instructor’s examination"?
You will I hope forgive me for not regarding reportage as authoritative. I don't pretend to be an expert on French law but it would be normal for the decision of a court to be whether or not the accused was found guilty or not guilty of the charge laid against him.
| Quote: |
| Barrett-Boyce was also found guilty under sections 3 and 4 of the French Liquor Licensing acts for running an illegal bar. |
As no doubt would most chalet girls in the Alps if the authorities decided to have a go at them. There have been instances of our own Police forces being in the same embarrassing position due to failing to renew the licenses on their own bars. It's not the dire crime that the tone of your quote suggests (from which some might form the opinion that he was running a shibeen selling home-made bootleg liquor)
I'm with the view expressed in PG's last paragraph and would far rather see an operation that is both highly thought of by his clients and in compliance with the law. Simon's post does not unfortunately display the clarity of analysis that will be required if the appeal is to succeed. The court is not going to be concerned with whether the law is good or bad, simply with whether or not his conviction is sound. There are a number of arguments that could be used to this end, for example that the law was wrongly interpreted, the evidence was false or inadmissable or that the law itself is invalid because it breaches EU law.
Simon unfortunately does not deploy any of these arguments in his post. Not surprising really as he is a ski instructor who has held a BASI 1 for nearly 20 years, not a lawyer. It would be a shame if his failure to conform (some might call it pig-headedness) should lead him into a situation where he had no need to be.
I haven't seen anything here or on the slopes that suggests that what he has been doing is unsafe or dangerous for his clients, nor does his prosecution suggest that. As far as I can see he was entitled to exemption from the Eurotest, which was introduced many years after he gained his BASI 1, and his teaching staff would qualify to teach in a Centre de Formation. His offence appears to be that he has not complied with the law by failing to register his business with the Prefecture (although it is a properly constituted UK Limited Company), that he failed to apply for the ISTD to which it appears he was entitled, and that he has failed to obtain Centre de Formation status.
These offences while serious in business terms have not caused danger to his clients and as far as I know he is fully entitled to continue trading and instructing pending resolution of his appeal.
Bonsoir a tous
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Poster: A snowHead
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Greytop, Other issues of possible concern to potential customers have been raised. Liability insurance in the event of accident on the slopes for example, while undergoing instruction. Can the underwriters rescind cover on a company's policy if that cover is contingent upon the instructors being lawfully employed as bona fide registered instructors? Not talking about basic medical costs here - presumably anyone with any sense will be fully covered in their own right - but rather about about the large claims that can be made in 'lack of care' cases. Personal insurance may not provide for more than a token sum in such instances, and the skier would have to sue the provider of the instruction himself.
As for status in France, this is not really a grey area. You either have equivalence or you don't. If you don't, the fact that you hold the BASI I qualification today and once would have been entitled to equivalence doesn't change the fact that today S Butler will have to take the Eurotest, or employ someone with full equivalence on the management side, to obtain training centre status. Of course having been convicted in a court of law, subject to appeal, may have further ramifications.
The drinks thing may or may not be a minor issue, as you suggest - depends how organised it was. Perhaps you know!
The free tuition issue is one that has raised hackles on both sides of the argument. Think we've done that part of the controversy to death! Again, it's a shame that the business wasn't run separating the two elements, holidays and tuition. Plenty of people manage to make a good living that way, and none of this would have happened. Hindsight and all that, but this has been going on for many years and resentment has been building, not just from the French who see the British as using their expat status to undermine their livelihoods, but also those British instructors who as Easiski puts it, have "jumped through all the hoops", and remained above board, and having to bear the considerable financial burden in terms of NI costs etc that goes along with this.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 31-03-04 7:50; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Greytop wrote: |
| With respect davidoff that ain't the charge, nor is it the decision of the Court. It's reportage of the result. |
You will have to refer to Mr Butler's lawyer for the court's judgement. It is not available to the public, neither are court transcripts. However you are splitting hairs.
| Quote: |
| I don't pretend to be an expert on French law |
We do.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I see over on PisteHos someone has said that French justice stinks and we should start a defence fund for Simon Butler. Maybe he should set up a website with a PayPal subscription service so we can contribute?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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sherman-maeir, What a great idea! In fact why doesn't someone set up a defence fund website so that people can contribute to all those poor folk who are or will soon be in desperate need of our support?.... We could start wth Saddam 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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davidoff
Thanks for your response.
Matteo in an earlier post said "I think that to be able to read the court order would give us a better idea..."
You yourself said "The person who covered this story for us (incidentally a French and English qualified lawyer), thought that the court imposed a tougher fine than requested due to the attitude shown by the defendants, particularly trying to pretend not to speak French when questioned by the Gendarmerie. I have asked her to try and get some more information from the court. "
I have not spotted any further posting from you, my apologies if it is there and I have missed it. Given that you hold yourselves out as experts on French law, and that you had a dual-qualified lawyer covering the story for you I'm surprised by the lack of a positive response to my suggestion. I'm not splitting hairs as you put it, simply trying to get a concise answer.
I am glad to see your posting of Simon's side here.
My postings have been prompted by feeling that some of the comments seem to be innuendo based on speculation or generalisation rather than reasoned argument based on facts, and hence possibly unfair. I am sure that the prosecuting authority is quite capable of deciding what charges to bring. If he has not been charged with tax evasion or of failing to meet the legal requirements for insurance then suggesting that he is possibly guilty of these offences is not only unfair it is potentially libellous.
I speak much better French than Simon but were I being questiond on a criminal matter I too would want an interpreter present (and a lawyer for that matter). To infer that this somehow should count against him is also unfair.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Is this still rolling along! I really can't see any meat left on the bone unless someone spoons the marrow out and posts the investigation documents, court proceedings transcript and the appeal petition!
OK, I’m a nosy booger and I hate half tales but whilst it’s good to be back on thread, I’m beginning to sense partisanship. Without the FULL tale, the speculation is doing this thread more harm than good. Especially to the adjudged.
Sorry, just been out of the loop for a few days and I’m just amazed we’re still chewing on this one.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Wed 31-03-04 10:53; edited 1 time in total
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This is a sensitive topic. I have read through the thread in detail on several occasions, and I see no examples of anything remotely libellous. I do believe that freedom of expression should not be abused however, and I am glad to see that on the whole this discussion has been conducted in a an equitable and calm manner.
To that end, I would ask if those who post under pseudonyms with no details in their profiles and have only recently joined, or have only commented on this specific topic, would consider telling us just a little more about themselves. Of course if they do not wish to do so that is entirely their prerogative - but I hope that you will understand my view that more transparency in delicate discussions like this does help to encourage an atmosphere of trust. (Please let's not get involved in a side debate on this here - there is already a thread on this issue at http://snowheads.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1005 - heading: Pseudonyms)
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So am I, Masque, but it's my fault for starting it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Greytop, In the link you posted, I found the possible legal precedent which did not involve a British company at all to be most reavealing. A prior ruling in circumstances that at first glance seem similar would appear to indicate that there could well be no anti-British element to this affair. I wonder if this jurisprudence emerged at the first hearing.
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| PG wrote: |
| This is a sensitive topic. I have read through the thread in detail on several occasions, and I see no examples of anything remotely libellous. I do believe that freedom of expression should not be abused however, and I am glad to see that on the whole this discussion has been conducted in a an equitable and calm manner. |
Greytop is overstating a little by terming it libellous, nevertheless, he makes a fair point about the insurance issue in particular. Operating without insurance is a serious offence and had it been committed I'd also have expected them to be charged with it.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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PG
To answer your request.
I am not connected with the ski or tourism industry at all. I am based in the UK and run a telecoms company. I am a long-standing customer of Simon Butler Skiing and have also travelled with Ski-Val, Scott Dunn, Skiworld and others as well as independently.
I don't see any evidence that there is any anti-British element here either. Simon claims in his posts that he wants to operate under the same rules as the ESF and I can't see anything preventing him from doing so.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Greytop, Thank you for that introduction.
ise,
| Quote: |
he makes a fair point about the insurance issue in particular
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The insurance issue is of particular interest in general terms. I doubt my carte neige insurance would cover me to any significant extent for 3rd party 'negligence/lack of care' situations, and it is important to me to know that the liability insurance of any professional I may engage is completely failsafe, should I ever be in the unfortunate situation of having to make a claim.
Insurers can and do try to deny cover if any of the terms the insured party (an instructor or any professional in a regulated profession) has signed up to are contravened in any manner. It is hardly an unreasonable subject for discussion to wonder how a free tuition situation might affect this, or a court finding that professionals did not have the qualifications that allow them to carry out their profession.
I would be interested to hear from an insurance professional whether breach of contract can be invoked in such circumstances. My concern here is the consumer protection issue that this raises.
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I fully agree with Masque that the bone has been licked clean and we should really wait for the appeal if it takes place.
I would just like to respond to some of Greytops comments which raise some good points.
When I originally heard of this case I didn't think it was that interesting (at least not to PisteHors.com) and decided to cover it as a side issue. Although I was in Bonneville on the day of the original hearing I had other things to do. If you've even been to French trials they are quite administrative and little like the courtroom scenes people in the UK may be used to. I therefore asked someone else to take some notes for me. What I've reported as quotes came from the hearing (translated by me from French to English which may cause errors) and are covered by qualified privilege.
I would add that personally it would have suited me if Mr Butler had won his case as I could have run the story “Plucky Brit Beats French Justice” which is a much better story. I still have the skeleton of this story prepared in case he wins his appeal. As I have said on this forum I don’t doubt the skiing skills and abilities of both instructors to teach.
As I became aware of the increased interest in the case I asked a French lawyer to cover the judgement and analyse this in the light of current jurisprudence (case law) for PisteHors.com. I would add that the lawyer in question is also a professor at France’s leading law school, is a leading specialist in insurance matters and teaches the people who will eventually judge these kinds of cases. As promised I published a summary of the judgement given to me by the lawyer. The judgement is quite long and cannot be published as it is not a public document, same for the court proceedings. This differs from the UK. I personally don’t have either document.
The tax-affairs sub thread is just part and parcel of the perception of UK businesses in France. My original point was that there is some anti-English sentiment in the Alps at the moment at it time to make sure all your registrations, tax payments etc are correct. The fact that Mr Butler operated for many years in Megeve without problems would seem to show that there is a hardening of attitudes now.
The insurance matter is a very important one and a question that should be asked. If someone has an accident while skiing with a ski school that, for sake of argument, leaves them paralysed. They may want to make a claim against the ski school’s insurance. The ski school’s insurance company will argue that they don't have to pay out if they find, for example, that there are irregularities in the certification of instructors. This is our professional advice but I would welcome arguments in the other direction from people who have a first hand knowledge of insurance law in the context of the French courts.
One reason why the authorities are so severe with ski schools who don’t register is that this is an important control that the instructors are duly qualified and so will be properly covered by their insurance. I would remind you that the charges Mr Butler faced have a maximum fine of 15,000 Euros and a year in jail. This is considered to be an important matter.
Speaking personally I would like to draw a line under this now. I wish him well in his appeal and trust that the court will give due consideration to the points he has raised. I hope that even if he loses there is some way for him to continue his business which seems to be appreciated by a number of people.
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You know it makes sense.
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| davidof wrote: |
I would add that personally it would have suited me if Mr Butler had won his case as I could have run the story “Plucky Brit Beats French Justice” which is a much better story. I still have the skeleton of this story prepared in case he wins his appeal. As I have said on this forum I don’t doubt the skiing skills and abilities of both instructors to teach.
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You could have run it as “Plucky Brit takes on French Justice”
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Extraordinary that French courts won't allow their judgements to be published. How can this be? If the hearing is attended by the public, and the judge is reading out his judgement in public, why is his document secret?
Or have I missed something?
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Poster: A snowHead
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David Goldsmith, I've obtained commercial court judgements (eg on defunct companies) before, for a small fee. Perhaps different regulations apply to criminal court findings that are pending appeal.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| Or have I missed something? |
No there was a mistake in what I typed... must be forum fatigue. To expand and clarify, the judgement is sent to interested parties but neither it nor the proceedings are 'published' as such unless there are some interestings points of case law. You can obtain copies (as Pete says above) but the French courts are in no hurry to send them out if you are not involved in the litigation. For example, you could ask Bonneville for a copy of the judgement. In my view you shouldn't then publish that on a website or forum.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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If he/she/it was teaching the wedge, they deserve to be fired.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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As far as third party insurance is concerned, any up to date BASI member has a reasonable sum insured automatically with their annual licence. I could not say whether this insurance covers members if they are found to be in breach of any foreign law.
Most of us (hopefully) working in France belong to a union; for most Brits it's the Ecole de Ski Internationale union - SIMS. This membership also carries with it "Responsibilité Civile" insurance (or 3rd party as we call it in the UK). It is sensible to have the French version, just in case, however, to belong to the Union you have to have an up to date Carte Professionelle, so the roundabout continues!
I don't know how good SB's french is, but if he can't speak it fluently after 20 years then I personally would consider that tactless and rude to the host country.
I think that's enough from me on the subject - I've really enjoyed reading all the postings.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| easiski wrote: |
As far as third party insurance is concerned, any up to date BASI member has a reasonable sum insured automatically with their annual licence. I could not say whether this insurance covers members if they are found to be in breach of any foreign law.
Most of us (hopefully) working in France belong to a union; for most Brits it's the Ecole de Ski Internationale union - SIMS. This membership also carries with it "Responsibilité Civile" insurance (or 3rd party as we call it in the UK). It is sensible to have the French version, just in case, however, to belong to the Union you have to have an up to date Carte Professionelle, so the roundabout continues!
I don't know how good SB's french is, but if he can't speak it fluently after 20 years then I personally would consider that tactless and rude to the host country.
I think that's enough from me on the subject - I've really enjoyed reading all the postings. |
Another good point though, as a BASI 1 he's supposed to be able to speak French.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I'm in general agreement with the "done to death" feeling, but I have one question that I think is germane, that I don't think has been raised in the thread, and that those here more knowledgeable than me may be able to answer.
PG has mentioned the agreements on cross-recognition of qualifications amongst the associations: surely a good thing that nobody could argue with. I think it was Davidof who quoted the French law which, possibly indirectly, references the French qualification. My question is, do the other Alpine countries (or UK/Scotland for that matter) have equivalent laws? Might an option for SB and JB-B be to take flight to (say) Italy, rather than jump through the hoops in France?
In the spirit of open-ness, like Greytop, I'm a regular SBS customer. I'm quite interested in the answer to my question, because I wouldn't be too upset if they moved - having skied every run in Megeve a million times, I might welcome having a holiday to a formula that suits me, with people I like, but in less familiar territory.
Knowing well 100-150 SBS guests, dozens of whom I've introduced, I don't think any would go back to Megeve if SB and JB-B closed down or moved on, even if not all would follow them to the ends of the earth. This could end up being quite damaging to many in Megeve, without benefitting any local instructors. I'll stop now, before I end up getting too partisan!
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"Patrick Zimmer (Top Ski, Val d'Isère), an ex-racer originally from Alsace, fought all the way to the French high court in order to break the monopoly of the ESF when he founded the country's first alternative school in 1976. Specialises in off-piste skiing for experts and intermediates, either in groups or on a private basis."
Bernard Prud’homme the head of tourism in Chamonix who was reported in the Daily Telegraph (04 Jan 2004) as saying: "He’d like the English to come on holiday and then go home - he does not want them to stay permanently".
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laundryman, good to hear from you again, and thanks for declaring your interest.
236 posts so far, so I may have missed this (sorry if I have), but I am wondering: why now? (I think this was asked earlier, but never answered).
SB has been operating for 10 years (maybe more) I understand, and according to the posts here from his clients, his customer satisfation rating is high. So, he had a longstanding successful business. SB must have been well known in Megeve. He must have felt part of the place. Many companies offer inclusive packages: accomodation, meals, ski hire - why not add in tuition? And English speaking ski teachers is what we all ask for. He has presumably been offering this for some time. It is in the brochure, so no secret. So why now? What prompted the ESF to complain to the police in March this year (see pistehors.com ) rather than earlier in the season, or even last season. And, as a previous poster suggested, is it more than just coincidence that this all blew up at the same time as a murder suspect from Austalia (Gordon Wood) moved in with SB? I have tried to clear up which came first: Gordon's arrival or the ski teaching scandal, but the information available to me is fuzzy. Anyone know better?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Jonpim wrote: |
| SB has been operating for 10 years (maybe more) I understand, and according to the posts here from his clients, his customer satisfation rating is high. So, he had a longstanding successful business. SB must have been well known in Megeve. He must have felt part of the place. Many companies offer inclusive packages: accomodation, meals, ski hire - why not add in tuition? And English speaking ski teachers is what we all ask for. He has presumably been offering this for some time. It is in the brochure, so no secret. So why now? |
I, for one, just don't know. There has been tension in the past, but seemingly interspersed with periods of reasonable cooperation. For example, SB has always sent snowboarding guests to the ESF. In turn, they seem happily to have laid on dedicated races for SB guests, including this year!
As for wider integration into the community, this is best illustrated by the weekly (for years and years), broom-ball matches between a SB/JB-B team and a Megevan team comprised mainly of lift mechanics (I think). It's generally played in a great 'hard but fair' spirit.
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laundryman, excuse the diversion, but what is a "broom-ball match"?
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FAQ
