 Poster: A snowHead
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I am quite happy for you or anyone else to have their opinions.
I think a quick scan of this post and your other says different.
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Where have I ever said that anyone is not entitled to their opinion - evidence please. This is not the same as saying that I (or anyone else) am not free or entitled to disagree with said opinion.
rayscoops,
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Stephen101 - and I think we had better put you in Room 101
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I was under the impression I was already there with leedsunited playing the role of Big Brother 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rayscoops,
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leedsunited - the naughty step for you - now Very Happy
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Or in other words "BOY STOP RUNNING IN THE CORRIDOR" 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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leedsunited,
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the great Brian Clough
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He would appear to meet your criteria to be classified as a "commie" and for good measure he didn't think much of Leeds United either.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Stephen101
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Big Brother NehNeh
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Dont be bringing Imogen Thomas into this or we will have get you another "Super Injunction" 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Stephen101, Might need to reconsider that allegory. O'Brien is the interrogator. Big Brother simply repeats empty slogans.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Stephen101,
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he didn't think much of Leeds United either.
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Ah now that is where you have your facts fair and squarely wrong and "if you know your history" it was Don Revie he had a dislike of, oh and Johnny Giles who thought he should have been given the job and was Revie's choice and it was Giles who if popular belief is to be taken was the one leading the dressing room revolt along with others who did not want change to the "Clough" way. Shame the board did not back him and buckled to player pressure and also the greatest manager England never had.
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Chris Bish,
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Stephen101, Might need to reconsider that allegory. O'Brien is the interrogator. Big Brother simply repeats empty slogans.
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No - Had someone else in mind as the interrogator
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leedsunited,
\and what did he think of them after he was sacked?
"
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23953871-those-tickets-for-wimbledon-may-land-you-in-jail.do
The linked article is interesting and relevant to this debate - if it only demonstrates that there are others who share my views that judgements as to what is and isn't bribery are not as clear cut as some would have us believe (and about to become even more complex) and that this is an issue within the corporate world as well as for teachers.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Thu 26-05-11 22:21; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Stephen101,
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as clear cut as ome
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Ahh gotcha, is spell checker off
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Ahh gotcha, is spell checker off
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No just carelessness. Now corrected, together with the other typo.
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Worth quoting the following as it shows very well the RA process for school trips:
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Generic risk assessments. These are available to Educational Visits Co-ordinators for a wide
range of activities. They identify the main hazards associated with a specified activity, and the
minimum control measures which are normally required/expected. For example a generic risk
assessment for camping would assess the general risks associated with camping (e.g. the use of
camping stoves), regardless of the venue.
• Site specific risk assessments. These require the group leader to carry out a pre-visit, and
assess the specific hazards, which may relate only to that venue, in addition to the hazards
identified within the generic assessment. For example the campsite to be used may be part of a
farm, with a pond on site.
• On-going risk assessment. This is often the aspect which requires the exercise of judgement
which comes with experience. During the course of the activity, conditions may change in a way
which introduces new, possibly unforeseen hazards. This might require the activity to be modified
or abandoned, or for “Plan B” to be put into effect. For example, on arrival at the campsite, the field
might be full of cattle because the gate has been left open.
Page 14 of 180 Updated July 2006
The group leader must carry out a site-specific risk assessment, referring where appropriate to a
generic risk assessment for the activity. Less experienced group leaders may need support or training
from the EVC to carry out this process effectively. It is good practice to ensure that a “Plan B” has
been prepared, to allow for the need to modify or abandon the original activity. This plan should cover
non-emergency situations, for example poor weather requiring the venue or activity to be modified (a
separate emergency plan will also be required: for example, to arrange for the group to be collected
early in the event of an accident or incident requiring the visit to be abandoned). Plan B activities
should be researched and risk assessed to the same standards as ‘Plan A’. These should be recorded
and included with the information forwarded to the Educational Visits Co-ordinator so that the
proposed educational visit can be considered and approved by the EVC, head, governors, |
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You know it makes sense.
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kevindonkleywood, I do not think the requirement of a Risk Assessment is the issue with anyone - certainly not me, but it is whether a trip is required to conduct one when considering there is a mass of information already available and that the TO can assist with their local representatives' knowledge. What is interesting is that various schools no doubt go to the same resort and hotel and all carry out their own individual risk assessments; surely this information could be 'pooled' and made available for the next school etc ? the TO could have a Risk Assessment section on their websites with a data base of all the school's respective Risk Assessment documents. This way it may save the teachers from having to visit the resort as part of the Risk Assessment process.
I just went on to skibound website to check out their inspection trips and I could not find any reference to them, but it is interesting that skibound themselves risk assess the 'site specific' considerations and make this information for the Team Leader to carry out a risk assessment http://www.skibound.co.uk/party-leader-information/risk-assessment.
Unless I have read it wrong, this is a specialist school ski trip company that schools book with and it does not offer inspection trips because they provide all the information that would be be collected on such a trip. To me this again questions the 'necessity' rather than 'preference' for such inspection trips.
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| Here at SkiBound we carry out safety audits completed by qualified staff of the main components within your chosen ski and snowboard tour. The audits cover the accommodation, transportation and après ski activities to ensure your tour will run as smoothly as possible. Your task is to 'assess the risks' that could relate specifically to your group as each group can vary considerably and to effectively manage these risks you will need to create your own Risk Assessment document to help to identify ways to reduce the highlighted risks. This document is also a document that may be required to be completed for your Local Education Authority to approve permission to facilitate your school trip. |
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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rayscoops,
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kevindonkleywood, I do not think the requirement of a Risk Assessment is the issue with anyone - certainly not me,
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Me neither.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| kevindonkleywood wrote: |
Worth quoting the following as it shows very well the RA process for school trips:
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Generic risk assessments. These are available to Educational Visits Co-ordinators for a wide
range of activities. They identify the main hazards associated with a specified activity, and the
minimum control measures which are normally required/expected. For example a generic risk
assessment for camping would assess the general risks associated with camping (e.g. the use of
camping stoves), regardless of the venue.
• Site specific risk assessments. These require the group leader to carry out a pre-visit, and
assess the specific hazards, which may relate only to that venue, in addition to the hazards
identified within the generic assessment. For example the campsite to be used may be part of a
farm, with a pond on site.
• On-going risk assessment. This is often the aspect which requires the exercise of judgement
which comes with experience. During the course of the activity, conditions may change in a way
which introduces new, possibly unforeseen hazards. This might require the activity to be modified
or abandoned, or for “Plan B” to be put into effect. For example, on arrival at the campsite, the field
might be full of cattle because the gate has been left open.
Page 14 of 180 Updated July 2006
The group leader must carry out a site-specific risk assessment, referring where appropriate to a
generic risk assessment for the activity. Less experienced group leaders may need support or training
from the EVC to carry out this process effectively. It is good practice to ensure that a “Plan B” has
been prepared, to allow for the need to modify or abandon the original activity. This plan should cover
non-emergency situations, for example poor weather requiring the venue or activity to be modified (a
separate emergency plan will also be required: for example, to arrange for the group to be collected
early in the event of an accident or incident requiring the visit to be abandoned). Plan B activities
should be researched and risk assessed to the same standards as ‘Plan A’. These should be recorded
and included with the information forwarded to the Educational Visits Co-ordinator so that the
proposed educational visit can be considered and approved by the EVC, head, governors, |
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Interesting information, may i ask the source?
I may be wrong here, although unlikely, i think the last time i was wrong was July 16th 1984 and that was debatable, however i digress, on reading the above especially "It is good practice to ensure that a “Plan B” has been prepared, to allow for the need to modify or abandon the original activity. " does this meen that in the context of skiing you should visit every resort your TO offers in case he changes your destination at the last minute and you do not wish to cancel?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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leedsunited, would I be right in thinking you are ex-military?
How's the gold plated military pension? Better than many others in the public sector I believe .... 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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roga, Yes and dont know, dont have one
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Great thread!
I found the schools are advised to do this and that and follow the guidance as laid out in best practice. This is very well laid out on the thread and there is ROSPA guidance too - especially linked to "high risk" activities like skiing and zorbing.
Our recent Spring fundraising involved Zorbing and climbing walls and I didn't see anyone rushing for an inspection trip or risk assessment before the kids piled in! For those that dont know zorbing is hot, humid, sensory deprevation, highly likely to be injured and great fun!
The guidelines are NOT mandated. A school governor should be responsible for ensuring trips and adequately assessed and the guidance followed. I met a school governor who told me their school "lets the teachers get on with it" but after seeing the SE fiasco first hand will be hot footing back to change the process pronto. This evidence shows there can be all the guidance in the world but there are good schools who don't follow the basic checks let alone the tombs set out here.
Turning back to are these incentives out of hand? Yes, they are. The historical success of shambles outfit like Reynards SE is down to the incentives that beat the market. Why else would organisers put up with the long history of disorganisation and stress of late change of plan the go again the next year?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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roga, I have a mate that joined up 15 years old and did his full maximum service and retired at about 38 at the highest possible rank you can achieve and has quite a decent pension. Not many last through to retirement though 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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rayscoops, Only did 9 years so i wont be moving to Germany and buying a place in the mountains on my pension anytime soon 
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rayscoops,
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notwithstanding the good natured banter
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The one thing i did learn in the forces other than spellin and grummar was that on the banter front it is a tough school, oh and how to make clocks work
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| kevindonkleywood wrote: |
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If my men are laying bricks on a scaffold (erected correctly and checked by our client, before being released to us) it does not matter if that scaffold is in Romford or Reading.
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Im surprised that you do not consider the whole picture but prefer to break everything down into individual tasks that are (seemingly) un related within the overall risk assement?
So you would not consider (for example) the position of possiblle overhead powerlines, crane positioning, ajoining or concurrent activites (all of which change as the scaffold in question moves between sites) in your risk assesment? |
Power lines would be highlighted in the Construction Health and Safety Plan, drawn up by the client before works start. I have never seen a building go up so close to power lines that they created a hazard. The other things you mention would all be dealt with in daily safety briefings as crane positions and influence from interfacing trades would change on a daily basis.
This would also be by far the best way of dealing with any specific hazards that may present themselves in a ski resort.
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(curious question) following on from that (on the scaffolding) would you normally have to consider the evacuation of the injured bricky from the scaffolding in your risk assesment? as an outdoor group leader would be required to do. |
Were the injured person unable to walk or use a ladder, he would be evacuated by the emergency services, just as you would at home if you had an accident whilst repairing your chimney.
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I am assuming that for the purposes of your task based risk assesments you are able to assume a basic level of competence in your employees and that you dont have to cover the mindnumbingly obvious stuff?
Sadly school outdoor leaders cannot assume any such basic common sense or knowledge/aptitude in their groups, If the kids want to go on the trip and the parents have paid the leader has to take them (equal opertunities for all) even if that child put his clothes on backwards and tries to eat his shoes they are in the group and going with the others. You simply have to plan for the lowest common denomonator....and that can be pretty low. |
We do assume that the operatives have a modicum of common sense and I am sure teachers have to do the same... for pupils and fellow teachers. Otherwise you could write pages on how to cross the road, how to make a cup of tea and how not to choke on the toy inside a Kinder egg.
As I write this post, I am struggling to think what I would need to visit a European holiday resort for, to be able to write a risk assessment. What specific hazard would exist in a resort that I could not identify by using the phone and the internet and would be a sufficient risk that I must include it in a RAMS pack?
(By the way, assessment is double ss, double ss. If you write or review them, it helps to spell the title correctly )
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| roga, I have a mate that joined up 15 years old and did his full maximum service and retired at about 38 at the highest possible rank you can achieve and has quite a decent pension...... |
Field Marshal at 38? Impressive. I'm sure the pension is quite decent.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| achilles wrote: |
| rayscoops wrote: |
| roga, I have a mate that joined up 15 years old and did his full maximum service and retired at about 38 at the highest possible rank you can achieve and has quite a decent pension...... |
Field Marshal at 38? Impressive. I'm sure the pension is quite decent. |
Not unheard off i knew an Admiral in the Swiss Navy who was only 34
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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leedsunited, both you and rayscoops move in elevated circles.
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Regarding whether there is the need for an inspection visit or not on foreign trips - perhaps the most relevant advice is that in para 206 of the Department of Education guidance on the matter (which I linked to previously):
Planning and preparation
206. It is good practice that an exploratory visit to the
location should always be made. If this is not possible,
the group leader should gather as much information
as possible on the area to be visited/facilities from:
the provider;
the Foreign & Commonwealth Office’s Travel
Advice Unit;other schools who have used the facilities/been
to the area;
the local authority/schools in the area to be
visited;
national travel offices in the UK;
embassies/consulates;
travel agents/tour operators;
The Suzy Lamplugh Trust, a national charity for
personal safety, who have produced guidance,
including a book called World Wise: Your
Passport to Safer Travel, a video of the same
title, and information on the Internet. See
Annexes A and B for publication details and
contact addresses;
the Internet, books and magazines.
I very much doubt (and of course it is only my opinion) that any court in the land would entertain convicting a teacher that was following Department of Education best practice by going on an inspection trip for taking a bribe.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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roga,
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(as long as they believe what they read in the Daily Mail Wink )!
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Just reminded me to flog paer boy to within an inch of his life when he finally delivers it, it should have been here at 7.30!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| achilles wrote: |
| leedsunited, both you and rayscoops move in elevated circles. |
Not anymore, i keep getting my wings clipped
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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^ bring back the birch
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I had a friend who was a Colonel in the Marines at 40. You don't need to be old to achieve rank. You do need to be a bloody good leader though.
It is interesting that the Bribery Act was mentioned. I also read the article in last night's Evening Standard. The act is coming in and is quite concerning.
We entertain our clients and are entertained ourselves by our suppliers. Work is neither promised nor expected from such events, but gaining a better understanding of the client and their construction needs is expected. The most valuable thing that entertaining achieves is a relationship. All contracts will occasionally throw up a problem and dealing with the problem if you have a good relationship with the client or supplier is always much easier. In this, the system works.
The whole Bribery Act is an entirely different discussion but from what I have read of it, free Reynardesque week long 'inspection visits' would appear to be far beyond what is required to assess how dangerous a road near a hotel may be and such trips would be classed as inducements... or bribes.
I suspect that the act was written with a view to protecting public service buying decisions from bribery. A cynic would say that the act was written by a Labour government whose core supporters were unlikely to receive corporate hospitality. A realist would point out that hundreds of thousands of young and working class people are employed by the hospitality industry and their jobs are now at risk.
ETA - the is a way around all of the secrecy and potential legality problems of 'inspection trips'. If sufficient information cannot be gleaned from the LEA, other schools or the sources posted above in Stephen's list, the group leader could ask the parents if they want to pay for him to go on a free week long fact finding trip.
I wonder what the response would be.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Fri 27-05-11 10:36; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Stephen101,
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206. It is good practice that an exploratory visit to the
location should always be made. If this is not possible,
the group leader should gather as much information
as possible on the area to be visited/facilities from:
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Not in doubt, but allow me to run these 2 scenarios
1 :
Trip Leader "Sir with regards to the school trip to France in accordance with section 206 i must go on a pre visit trip, no more than a couple days.
Head "Have you exhausted all other avenues for collating the neccesary information"
Trip Leader "Yes"
Head "OK fine, make sure you keep all your reciepts and fill in your expense form on your return, have a good trip"
2, Trip Leader "Sir with regards to the school trip to France in accordance with section 206 i must go on a pre visit trip"
Head "Have you exhausted all other avenues for collating the neccesary information"
Trip Leader "Yes"
Head " OK how long do you need
Trip Leader "Oh it is a week"
Head "Oh my god not sure we have a budget that can stand that"
Trip Leader "Oh dont worry the tour operator is going to pay for it, flights, meals, accomodation, entertainment and even possibly some helicopter skiing as well, i can even take the wife"
Head "Mmmm sounds a little generous, what is he expecting in return"
Trip Leader "Nothing"
Head "Really, i think i need to think about that one and check with our compliance department"
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bar shaker,
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We entertain our clients and are entertained ourselves by our suppliers. Work is neither promised nor expected from such events, but gaining a better understanding of the client and their construction needs is expected. The most valuable thing that entertaining achieves is a relationship. All contracts will occasionally throw up a problem and dealing with the problem if you have a good relationship with the client or supplier is always much easier. In this, the system works.
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I do not disagree with any of your points above, however entertaining and giving of gifts within Local Goverment is very much a no no, even down to something as giving an employee in a department a diary at Christmas, now some may say it is not free as the customer will pay for it eventually and there lies the issue, if they do not take it then they cannot be deemed to have been induced.
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achilles, not a Field Marshall . My mate entered at the age of 15 (so obviously was not an Officer) as a private and I believe he was a Sergeant Major (or RSM or something ?) for ages in charge of Chelsea Barracks before he retired
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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leedsunited i typed something similar a while back but did not post it
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rayscoops, Boy soldier to RSM, top respect to the man
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FAQ
Oh what could have been 
there is quite a lot of useful information regarding arranging trips etc so maybe a 'sticky' should be started with all the links to such resources.
