 Poster: A snowHead
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| johnnyh wrote: |
| I'm suggesting a more considered approach. |
Not by picking on heli-skiing you're not.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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PJSki, 
johnnyh, trouble is, you consider that the only thoughtful person contributing to this thread is you. Nobody on this thread, as far as I can see, has said
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lets just jump in the heli and have some fun and expense of the future.
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What some people have been saying is that the environmental impact is lessened by this being a minority activity, that not many people do or will jump into helicopters and that even the few who do so - like Arno - do actually give some thought to the implications.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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surely it's best to examine this consumption in the round and see where real savings can be made rather than bleating on about totemic issues that the smallest fraction of the population indulge in?
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Well, if you think it's bleating on then why bother getting involved in a discussion? I agree a small fraction of people heli-ski BUT the f-ing post was about heli-sking so that's why we're talking about it. If the post had been about banning fondu we'd be talking about that too. That's the point of a forum/discussion/thread.
My larger point is about considering the impact of what you do (not banning or shooting anyone who does it). But since no one appears to want to take any responsibility for doing that when they ski I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens in the future.
It's a shame that DG is no longer participating since his views would have been interesting.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Not by picking on heli-skiing you're not.
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Yes I am. I'm not picking on anything, this is a discussion topic. I am considering what DG proposed. I agree with some of his points and have considered them further.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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johnnyh, trouble is, you consider that the only thoughtful person contributing to this thread is you.
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Hurtle, if you could point me to the more thoughtful contributions on here I'll consider them too.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| HH wrote: |
PJSki,
Isn't it interesting that DG has been posting on other threads tonight but is strangely absent from this one? |
You don't debate with Goldsmith. What happens is you read what he says and he ignores any reasonable counterarguments. His opinions are set in granite and he will defend them with almost religious zeal.
He shows classic symptoms of this disorder: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder
"a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and a lack of empathy."
In other words, he's a tw@t.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 3-02-09 21:18; edited 1 time in total
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| johnnyh wrote: |
| Well, if you think it's bleating on then why bother getting involved in a discussion? |
Like most people I don't like being preached at. DG does it a lot, and in this thread you've hitched your star to his wagon. I think you're caught in the crossfire, but you don't seem to want to back down so good luck to you.
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johnnyh, first point, I have never unquestioningly taken a heli. they are too expensive for that! in fact the expense is probably the biggest reason why heli-skiing will never have a huge impact. i have looked at days of proper heli-skiing (as opposed to the Alpe d'Huez heli-drops I have mentioned) and have never been able convince myself that they are good value. last time i looked a day at an outfit near Whistler would cost nearly CAD1000 and wouldn't get you as much vertical as a good day at La Grave on the lifts. now you might criticise me for worrying about the cost more than the environmental impact. i would say that i'll worry about the environmental impact when i can afford to do it often enough for it to have an effect on the environment
and really, you should do a bit of research before you say skiers don't seem to care about the mountains - check out organisations like Mountain Wilderness. I think even the beloved Ski Club has environmental tie ups now
Last edited by After all it is free  on Tue 3-02-09 21:22; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| johnnyh wrote: |
| ... this is a discussion topic. |
I think not. It's a soapbox to display fixed positions and prejudices (on both sides of the argument).
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lets just jump in the heli and have some fun and expense of the future.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Well, if you think it's bleating on then why bother getting involved in a discussion? I agree a small fraction of people heli-ski BUT the f-ing post was about heli-sking so that's why we're talking about it. If the post had been about banning fondu we'd be talking about that too. That's the point of a forum/discussion/thread.
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Oh dear, when logic flies out of the window altogether, it's a bit difficult to pursue the argument.  Probably just as well at this point. Personally I think it's a mercy that DG is not, as is his wont, also repeating himself ad nauseam on this topic. But I don't think, PJ Ski, that personal insults of that sort assist the war effort.
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Hurtle, it's best to know what you're dealing with: "The narcissist is described as turning inward for gratification rather than depending on others and as being excessively preoccupied with issues of personal adequacy, power, prestige and banning heli-skiing."
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You know it makes sense.
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Arno, to be clear a lot skiers appear to have less connection with their favoured environment. Most of the comments on this thread are about how Climate change is a work of fiction - that to me indicates a lot, whether you believe it or not, there is good reason to be considered about what you do in the mountains.
I've met a lot of skiers who do care about the mountains as well, but they are not posting on here and I doubt they would claim Climate change is not happening. People like Ben Saunders and Al Humphreys, for me, show the kind sensitivity for the environment that interests me.
rob@rar, I think DG's wagon, while it may not be the popular vehicle, it should not be dismissed simply because some people have a history of disliking the driver. There are some important issues in the ideas about promoting a particular "lifestyle" view of skiing (via the BBC) which may not necessarily be the most responsible way to ski. Again, that's more what DG was saying and my position on this is split anyhow.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| johnnyh wrote: |
| rob@rar, I think DG's wagon, while it may not be the popular vehicle, it should not be dismissed simply because some people have a history of disliking the driver. |
I agree, so when significant issues are discussed I think there will be a different reaction from the assembled masses. But bleating on about totemic issues will get the same response around here as it always does.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Last week, I remember monitoring the helicopter on the top of the De Beers building in Charterhouse Street. Though the rotor blade was not revolving, the hot air ducts on the building made it seem as though the engine was on.
It flew off at ten to five (to avoid the rush hour ?) by then I had worked out it was not wasting fuel.
If De Beers can run a helicopter, when when there are normally trains, buses, taxis and roads for vehicles, what harm will a few pleasure flights do ?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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when logic flies out of the window altogether
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Sorry, which part of logic are you referring to? The causality of the discussion we are having is based on the fact that DG posted about Heli-Skiing. My response to Rob was simply to point out that the reason we were having a Heli-Skiing discussion was because DG had posed the question as the OP. There is no absence of logic in that. Posting topic, followed by discussion.
Hurtle, I sense you are weary of the battle. I accept your defeat.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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what harm will a few pleasure flights do
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Are you insane? Have you not read the last six pages?
Seriously, that's not a great start to gaining your green credentials. There's a few posts on here that will outline the nature of the harm and the extent to which you, Latchigo, are destroying my planet.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| johnnyh wrote: |
| ... and the extent to which you, Latchigo, are destroying my planet. |
Really? There's a lot that he posts I disagree with, but I didn't realise things had got quite that bad! 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| johnnyh wrote: |
My larger point is about considering the impact of what you do (not banning or shooting anyone who does it). But since no one appears to want to take any responsibility for doing that when they ski I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens in the future.
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I like how you presume you're the only one here who cares about the environment. The rest of us just can't live up to your level of self righteousness.
So if I consider the impact of my actions (as I presume you do before you go on a ski trip) then does that make it ok? You say that heli-skiing is outside the boundary of what you would consider acceptable in terms of environmental impact, which is fair enough, but you presumably think it's ok to build massive ski resorts in the mountains? What special responsibility do you actually take that others here don't?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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[quote="johnnyh"]
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There's a few posts on here that will outline the nature of the harm and the extent to which you, Latchigo, are destroying my planet. |
If Prince Andrew can use a helicopter just to get to golf course, how can we deny PJski a heliski trip too ?
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johnnyh, so if I save my Co2 allowance up over a number of years, is it ok to use it on heli-skiing?
Last edited by After all it is free on Tue 3-02-09 21:58; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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johnnyh, To put it simply, we're all - more or less enthusiastically - discussing heli-skiing and nobody has said that we should not be discussing the subject of this thread. It's just that some people are disagreeing with you as to its impact (as it happens I'm on the fence on that one) and some are saying (which I firmly believe) that all mechanically assisted skiing, by people who don't already live in the mountains, is damaging to the environment. And yet others are saying that you are self-evidently doing all sorts of other things with your life - apart from skiing - which damage the environment. Because you have not been able to refute any of those arguments satisfactorily, but rather have just been repeating your pious but unevidenced eco-credentials, you have legitimately been accused of bleating.
It is true to say that your preaching is wearisome.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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uktrailmonster, if you consider things, and you feel it's right for you - then that's fine by me.
I've not made any presumptions I have based my position on the postings here where people have said amongst other things "I'll drive to the airport in a Porche and book my heli-ski trip and not give a damn" It could of only been worse had it been a HumVee.So, for me that says there are a fair number of people posting here who for what ever reason, don't care too much about the environment/the mountains/ the planet etc.
I've covered off the ski resort argument on page 5(?). No, they're not ideal, are they? But DG wasn't saying ban ski resorts he was saying ban heli skiing. I don't understand how people can have an argument where they say "You don't like eggs, well presumably you don't like chickens either" - we're talking about eggs NOT chickens.
But in general, when I look at a ski resort I'm not thinking they did a good job hiding those lifts from view.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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johnnyh, "I'll drive to the airport in a Porche [sic] and book my heli-ski trip and not give a damn"
Who said that?
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if I save my Co2 allowance up over a number of years, is it ok to use it on heli-skiing?
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we'll see . . .
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You know it makes sense.
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johnnyh, you are right, but you can not tell skiers that to jump in and out of a compter is maybe not good for the long term health of the planet. Surely the best situation is to ski in a way that limits the adverse impact on the environment, and heli skiing does not fall in to this category or help in any way - noise, emmissions or anything else ....... except self satisfaction perhaps
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Tue 3-02-09 22:05; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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johnnyh, that's not an answer. Have another go.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Hurtle, well, you appear to be saying that unless you have squeaky clean green credentials you cannot comment on any green issues. That would limit the discussion considerably.
I do all the usual green things I can do and that probably a few others do too. I cycle to work, grow our own veg, we have chickens, shop locally (as local as I can). The things I don't do I'll try and do at somepoint in my life. I have a field where as part of reforestation project and have planted over 100 trees and with the adjacent field which is not mine probably there are around 700 or more new trees.
So, I'm doing what I can do, in our own way. But as Dick Strawbridge says "It's not easy being green". We're planning on generating ALL our own electricity in the future. At the moment I monitor our consumption and do what I can to limit it. (I would recommend the OWL electricity monitor for a view on how many daily units you burn up on stuff like computers on standby etc.)
As I've said I'm not a knit my own sandles environmentalist. I run my own company, I do drive a 4x4 (but I would consider viable alternatives) but I live on a farm (I'm not a farmer, though) with limited access.
What more can I say, now you really do know me and you may, if you wish call me a fraud. But I am trying to have a low level impact on the rest of the planet. We're trying to bring our children up to respect and understand their environment and their home. We want our children to read books and play computer games and swim and ski and have fun - but not at the expense of others. I want them to know about other cultures but to understand what cost visiting those places may have.
And this is where we came in. Heli-sking seems a step too far for skiing, when you can really do it another way.
I prefer people who have a passion for what they do, and see it more holistically than the hedonistic approach of some on here. I also like to look at how different things work. So, hence my desire to look at surfers as a model for skiers. Fortunately there are probably many people who cross over between these two, so one could perhaps look further afield.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| PJSki wrote: |
| HH wrote: |
PJSki,
Isn't it interesting that DG has been posting on other threads tonight but is strangely absent from this one? |
You don't debate with Goldsmith. What happens is you read what he says and he ignores any reasonable counterarguments. His opinions are set in granite and he will defend them with almost religious zeal.
He shows classic symptoms of this disorder: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder
"a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and a lack of empathy."
In other words, he's a tw@t. |
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Arno wrote: |
johnnyh, first point, I have never unquestioningly taken a heli. they are too expensive for that! in fact the expense is probably the biggest reason why heli-skiing will never have a huge impact. i have looked at days of proper heli-skiing (as opposed to the Alpe d'Huez heli-drops I have mentioned) and have never been able convince myself that they are good value. last time i looked a day at an outfit near Whistler would cost nearly CAD1000 and wouldn't get you as much vertical as a good day at La Grave on the lifts. now you might criticise me for worrying about the cost more than the environmental impact. i would say that i'll worry about the environmental impact when i can afford to do it often enough for it to have an effect on the environment
and really, you should do a bit of research before you say skiers don't seem to care about the mountains - check out organisations like Mountain Wilderness. I think even the beloved Ski Club has environmental tie ups now |
Arno... I really think you should consider joining Rayscoops and myself in Valdez, Alaska next year..... £4,500 for a fully inclusive week??? 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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PJSki, I don't really agree with carbon offsets although as you will see above - I have planted a lot of trees but not as a way to salve my own conscience.
You go and enjoy yourself, leave the guilt for the Catholics and make like you're in Apocalypse Now.
But just think about how you might have done it differently, if you could have, then maybe next time, you'll use skins or some other means to transport yourself. I know it may not seem like a big thing - although six pages in a forum isn't too bad, but small things can also make a difference and I suspect that's what DG was getting at somewhere along the line.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| johnnyh wrote: |
leave the guilt for the Catholics |
excellent, sectarianism invades heli-skiing. twaat
so nobody has pics of Jodie then?? 
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johnnyh,
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you appear to be saying that unless you have squeaky clean green credentials you cannot comment on any green issues. That would limit the discussion considerably
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No, I'm not saying that, I'm merely saying that your claim to green credentials is not proven.
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I do all the usual green things I can do
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No you don't - you ski. And you want your children to play computer games and to ski.
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Heli-sking seems a step too far for skiing
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And all that most people on here are saying is that, because so few people do it, heli-skiing is in fact de minimis in environmental terms. Whether it's a step too far for you personally is irrelevant.
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I prefer people who have a passion for what they do, and see it more holistically than the hedonistic approach of some on here
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If that's not breathtakingly sanctimonious, I don't know what is. I have a passion for several activities in my life (skiing included) and I see no reason to apologize for the hedonism that that implies. By your own admission you don't wear a hairshirt, so why should others?
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I am only coming in at the end of the topic. I have only had two trips in a helicopter.
the first was a very bad time when i had to go with a friend to hospital after he lost his way and ended up sliding down a very steep wooded slope and putting his pole through his side braking two ribs and punnchering a lung and well as breaking a leg. Not a good time as we had to leave him at the end of the week. he stayed in italy for 3 more weeks.
The second time was great. On a fresh tracks trip to chamonix but due to very limited snow the guide arranged a heli-sking trip to the top of the petit combin. WHAT A DAY. skied down got in to the minibus and taken up towards the st bernard pass. We then skinned up to the monestary and stayed over night. next morning skined up to a peck which i cant remember the name of before sking all the way back down to the valley bottom.
What a couple of days using both forms of transport to get to the high country. I think that it is likely to be a one off due to costs and kids.
I would not want to see the experance banned. For the most of us it is not somthing that will happen very offen and due to cost will be only for the few so the enviremental damage caused will be limited.
I would think that it if climate change is a major issue for you then lets not use the planes and go by rail. Instead of going out 3/4/5 time a year as some very lucky ones can why not have one trip or two for longer as this will greatly reduce CO2.
I am sorry if i am repeating what has been said before but i am not going back and reading 6 pages of tread.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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So.... Whats everyones favourite colour of helicopter then??? Mine's red 
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I do all the usual green things I can do
No you don't - you ski. And you want your children to play computer games and to ski.
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I'm sorry Hurtle, I didn't realise you couldn't read. "All the usual things I can do" means "all the usual things I can do". Not all the things you should or have to do, it's about personal responsibility.
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And all that most people on here are saying is that, because so few people do it, heli-skiing is in fact de minimis in environmental terms. Whether it's a step too far for you personally is irrelevant.
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So it's irrelevant for me, but not for others. You really aren't very good at arguing your point are you? No wonder DG annoys you.
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By your own admission you don't wear a hairshirt, so why should others?
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Again, I never said you should, just that it would help if some people considered their actions more.
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your claim to green credentials is not proven.
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never claimed any but as I have posted I do do somethings.
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If that's not breathtakingly sanctimonious . .
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No it's not. That's not the right word at all. It's a statement about the kinds of people I prefer to be friends with and the values they share. Why do you have a problem with that? Why is that suggesting I am in someway morally better than you? I suggest you come back and discuss this when you have finished your GCSEs then we might begin a proper debate - now that is sanctimonious.
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FAQ
