Discussion on the Ski Instructors Legal Case in France Thread

A snowHead

I would have thought that to be a piste patroller you would have to be further up the food chain! A good skier, paramedic, and even have been a mountain man/woman similar to members of UIAGM. Always thought they were the "deity" of the resort world!

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

When seeing them ski it is good to know there are people out there putting their lives at risk to help others, like all emergency services. One thing that amazes me is that to think that a piste patroller only needs the first aid cert of a basic "Fred Scuttle". And a ski instructor needs to do the euro test!!!

I appreciate I am being flippant but I am sure you know what I mean. One is dealing with someones immediate safety the other may be trying to get one off the nursery slope.

So many people have had problems with the ESF (I havent to be honest), It would be better if the French authorities worked on their instruction skills and not on irrellevant parts of a course that is designed to tell themselves that they can ski fast!

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Roy Hockley, read davidofs post above. Ski test and first aid cert are entry requirements to BEGIN training as a pisteur. AFAIK one then goes on to specialise (paramedic, artificier etc). Quite a lot of training in fact.

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offpisteskiing, I know and appreciate how good the piste patrollers ability are. It may have helped if I had put a wink

in the post. What in fact I was getting at is the basis of this thread. The third paragraph refers to the thread.

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offpisteskiing, would you know what the ratio of ISTD's to stagieres is within any of the centre du formation ski schools like the ESF or Magic?

Also, i had heard a rumour that new gen had applied for CDF status but was turned down as they didnt have enough ISTD's on staff. do you know what the minimum size the ski school has to be

i think this is the real rub of the case being discussed, whether or not any old school can employ ISIA's and that the CDF status is the real root of French Protectionism

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skimottaret, don't have the current info to hand at the mo'; however I think you probably have a good idea of where the real political influence is being exerted.
AFAIK critical figure is not ISTD (UK) to Stagiaire ratio but simply number of Nationales (Fr). ie Any school looking for CDF status needs the requisite number of French Nationales on its books to obtain that status and then the ratio of Stagiaires to Maitres de Stage is applied. And yes this does very much favour the large established structures (and particularly French structures).

After all it is free

offpisteskiing, thanks for that, it was reported here before that the ratio only includes Nationales not ISTD's which i couldnt believe as it was so blatently protectionist. Wow i am really surprised they get away with that...

Does a BASI ISTD with equivalence count as a Nationale?

Someone had told me the ratio was 4 students per Nationale which sounds about right but i also heard 10 to 1 somewhere.

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skimottaret, offpisteskiing, when this came up before, ISTR someone stated that the ISTDs in the CDFs had to have undergone all their training within the French system to count towards the ISTD/Stagiere ratio. If true, presumably it's blown out of the water by the court decision.

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laundryman, that is my take on it as well but i still dont really understand what this court decision means in practical terms Puzzled

just to throw in another rumour i heard from an ESF guy that with the impending implementation of the two tiers of ISIA certificates (red = current ISIA and Black = ISTD) Given that France and all other ISIA members have voted for this it would allow any ISIA red to teach in any market within a ski school environment. The view was from the ESF guy that this would mean the floodgates would open in France with ISIA reds able to work freely in any ski schools not just CDF's.

But i am sure there will continue to be some form of barrier like the test technique.

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I am Simon Butler and would like to clear up a few points. I have been taken to court regarding ski teaching in France several times over the years, culminating in the recent court case in 2006 when the Jeunesse des Sport and the ESF lost their case against me. My lawyer is issuing the press release that appears on this site to the national press. I was obviously delighted with the court decision which represents a landmark case that will now allow not only qualified British instructors, but thier equivalent EU nationals, to teach skiing without the need to take the Speed Test.

My qualifications have often been questioned. To clear this up, I have been working in the ski industry for nearly 30 years. I first passed my BASI 3 in the 1978/79 season, aged 16 years. I passed my Grade 2 in the 1981/82 season, and my Grade 1 in the 1985/86 season.

I was not required to take the Speed Test as I was on the original list of Grade 1s to receive the Equivalence at the time this was first required in France. Unlike the other instructors who held the same qualification, BASI did not grant me the Equivalence - mainly because I employ Grade 3 and 2 instructors.

I have run a ski tour operation in the French resort of Megeve for 26 years and employ nine British qualified ski instructors of different grades - all are working their way through the system. All team members receive training to develop their own skiing and teaching skills. We have a strong history in the teaching team of instructors who have progressed through to achieve the highest qualifications.

butsie, welcome to the forum and thanks for the info. I know one of your regular clients who speaks extremely highly of your instruction and the setup you have in Megeve.

I am, of course, extremely interested in your comment about the speed test no longer being required to teach in France. Does your legal ruling speak to the minimum level of qualification required to teach? For example, ISIA or ISTD but without a Eurotest pass? Do you have an insight to how BASI might respond to this judgement?

You know it makes sense.

No I am Simon Butler .....

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

butsie, welcome to snowHead

and great to hear from the horses mouth on this subject. Well done to you with your victory in the courts. I hope this puts a line under your personal/business's struggle with the authorities and you can carry on doing what you enjoy without interference.

Please continue posting if you have the time as there are many aspiring instructors who post here with the longer term goal of teaching in France and information will be gladly received by all.

A snowHead

As a former Patroller and I still keep my card. Skiing wise most Patrollers are athletic skiers. Not pretty skiers like instructors. More powerful skiers because the work is so demanding. You have to ski into terrain that you have no choice but to make butt ugly turns on. But it gets the job and gets you to your victim.

What they looked for from me was the following.

1. Skiing ability. Meaning how strong I am physically. Can I ski any terrain strong and safely at the same time. Take a rescue sled down a bump run and you will find out how strong you have to be for this job

2. Medical background. Better have your Paramedics EMT A.

3. Climbing back ground.

4. Personality test. Finding out if you can stay calm in heated situations. Remember Patrollers are in a way police officers on the slope. Sometimes people can get ugly.

5. Vaccinations. You better be up on it. You run into people from all over the world so make sure your shots are up to date. You don't want to spend the season sick. MAKE SURE ALL HEPATITIS/TB SHOTS ARE UP TO DATE THE MOST.

6. My military background. They love that.

I do not Ski Patrol anymore. Cuts into my ski time to much, but I'm very thankful for the men and women that do the job keeping us all safe on the slopes.

A snowHead

Thanks for thatJB007, what you have written matches what my ski patrol mates tell me about the level they need to be to pass there test in skiing and medical skills. They also say that there are different levels of ski patrol depending on the job you do. The highest are the guys that blow things up. (Not sure if this is really correct). I always wanted to do that part of there job, ski up to crazy areas and blow them up to make them safe. Sounds really fun. Sorry a bit of topic from ski instructors but it does seem like a much more fun and serious job Laughing

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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i know through the many basi members i have spoken to they are delighted with the result, however i am not sure if the basi executive feel the same way.
excellent pic

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butsie, What do you feel may be the practical results from your case and what does this entail for other BASI instructors.

Not knowing the details of your situation and case it sounds to me that it is specific to yourself and others who had Grade 1's prior to the Speed test introduction and that you specifically as a grade 1 will be allowed to teach in France. Since BASI now requires its own members to take the eurotest as part of ISTD does your judgement affect this policy? I would doubt that BASI will scrap the Eurotest for ISTD.

As your business (from what i can see) is not a ski school does your case eliminate the whole centre de formation requirement for training/hiring ISIA's or again is the case specific to your business?

My hope is that your precident will allow ISIA level of instructors to work in France but is this the case? Sorry for all the questions but i am either being very thick or the implications of your case to others isnt that clear.

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butsie, according to your scales (v. expensive) you must be younger than that PIC? Puzzled

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The subjectivity around gaining the BASI qualification is no better then the french system IMO. Is the biggest problem with ski instruction not the fact that people go from resort to resort getting different advice when they feel like it and somehow thinking that these fragmented sessions in aggregate are going to make them better?

After all it is free

Hi all,

This my first contribution to this debate - good to see you joining in Simon.

Most of the information you are all looking for regarding the rights of EU instructors to have their qualifications recognized in France is contained in Directive 2005/36/EC 7 September 2005 it is freely available online.

I have read the court judgement in Simon's case in full and on the point that whether a French test was required or not, Simon was found to be correct in his view - since in this case the French prosecutors could not show that there was a substantial difference between BASI qualifications and French ones French tests were not required.

The French did have a derogation from Directive 92/51/EEC which allowed them to impose tests for some sports including skiing, this Directive though has been repealed and replaced by the 2005 Directive.

Simon has for many years run a successful and safe operation in Megeve I see his team on the slopes almost daily and since I am an instructor myself (fully legal and registered locally) I can happily state this is the case.

Simon has run his operation with two ISTD level instructors at the top of his team (including himself) - just as many small ski schools are run; with the rest of his team having various levels of BASI qualification all of whom are working towards their ISTD qualification. The point here is that Simon and his team are working in an organized environment very similar in fact to an ESF ski school with their own Stagieres. They are also just working with Simon's clients who come especially for his "all inclusive" service.

The problem here is that Britain and France have different ways of qualifying ski instructors. The French have a very high entry level that is designed to ensure that almost everyone who starts training finishes with the lowest level of French qualification - B.E.E.S Premiere Degree - this is almost identical to BASI ISTD; they then have 2nd and 3rd degrees, one designed for race training at regional or international level and the other at post graduate sports science students.

So, so far as the French are concerned, ski teachers start as all singing all dancing very adaptable instructors who can teach at all levels (including snowboard). Many of them are excellent instructors - I know I watch (and listen) to them teach. Language is the key - how many British instructors would be even prepared to teach in French? We expect the French to teach in English...

Where BASI is concerned - things are different.

Forgetting level One which is designed to work only in an artificial environment; levels Two, Three (ISIA), and Four (ISTD - EuroSkiPro) are stand alone qualifications. Providing refresher courses are taken, current first aid certificates are obtained and subs are paid, the qualifications do not lapse, normally if a French stagiere has not qualified after a number of years they have to leave the system - or start again.

European regulations require that in order to work in a member country an application must be made to the relevant authority in this case the French Sports Ministry they must then see if the applicant has equivalent qualifications to the home country or if further training etc is required.

In Simon's case everyone was working in an organized environment not substantially different to the French model. The French authorities or various ESF ski schools may see this differently though.

A BASI ISTD is automatically given French equivalence which gives a French license, the right to work - including the right to work autonomously as I do.

Where the problem comes is if a lower level (than ISTD) instructor wishes to work outside a ski school environment, it may then be taken that there qualifications really are substantially different.

Davidoff writing in Pistehors is correct this decision has been taken by the lowest level of French criminal court, there are two higher courts in France and then the European Courts. What this means is that even a court at the same level is not bound by the judgement and my come to a different conclusion. So any lower level BASI instructors beware - you don't get your court costs back in the same way as in Britain even if you win.

It may be good for the industry to see lower level BASI instructors working permanently in properly organized ski schools in France, but is it desirable to see those same instructors working free of all constraints, happily doing as they like? They are surely public safety issues here?

BASI by the way are very aware of the issue.

Let the debate continue

Saint, welcome to snowHead

's a very informative first post. As you have read the case in detail what do you feel the impact of the ruling may be on centre de formation status ski schools. To me the CdF is the real root of French protectionism and the cases impact on what ski schools can employ non ISTD's would be of interest to readers here. I personally dont have any problem with ENSA or the French training system other than them saying a school must have X French trained Nationales in order to be allowed to have trainees on staff.

As you point out Simons smallish school is in effect trying to emulate a CdF ski school but doesnt have the numbers of Nationales to qualify. Does him winning the case allow him to continue to employ "stagieres" or non ISTD level instructors in training?

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Hi,

For the moment Simon has been controlled twice both times so far without charge so he is able to continue.

Locally the ESF seem resigned to the fact that he has won his case BUT - the sports ministry may keep on trying; they will need better lawyers though.

On CdF's, because I do not have a French original diploma I am not allowed to act as a mentor to a stagiere even though they may be following the British system, this is clear discrimination and I have a French license as well as British.

The whole CdF size thing was challenged by SIMS but the change in regulations stood under French law.

Clearly this needs challenging under European law but I don't have the money!

As you may be aware the Sydicat (ESF as a group) have 2 places on the Alpine Ski Committee so things may only change slowly. To be fair to the French their system has worked fine for them for years. When you look at the European statistics it is mainly us the Brits who want to change things so we can live in France and not "back home".

As things stand it is quite possible that small British type ski schools may be able to operate using lower level instructors than ISTD's. It is bound to be challenged though so it will be expensive. It is quite clear that BASI could help here in the way they describe the scope of each qualification particularly regarding the autonomous use of lower qualifications whether for skiing or other snow sports.

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Stand alone means level 2 cannot be taken away level 2's control the voting in BASI Plus there would be restraint of trade issues.

However I do not disagree.

Saint, your right i was just voicing my opinion of how i would like to see it. Interesting point about the control of votes within BASI being L1's and L2's.

Do matters ever come to a vote though? I would think that the higher ups in BASI who are all ISTD's call the shots as far as policy goes and what battles to fight. It will be interesting to see if BASI comes out with a statement of policy regarding employment opportunities for those with less than ISTD in France.

You know it makes sense.

Congratulations --- looks to the uninformed ( me) as if Brits have used EC legislation to gain a foothold in France. Is this good for British skiing ( as opposed to wannabe ski-instructors) ?

Cheaper and better to perfect French ski instructors command of the English language imho . I speak as someone who will never attain higher levels of competence (very low in my case) .... we will remain a nation of apres-ski experts with little else to commend us ?

In my simple mindset I'd be so much happier to see the folks who have attained the appropriate level do well and benefit ... that suggests high standards of Brit instruction, am I missing something?

So "Someone" in Megeve wants to run a business .. good luck to him .. still unsure from the above how that benefits 'Jo Public' or British skiing ... just looks like someone who wants to make 'loadsa' money to simple old me! However the knock-on effect ...???? What will the future look like in terms of standards?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

this is all very interesting. I'm not sure what the long term effects will be though. Mattias here won the right to teach snowboard, but one of his employees (a brit snowboard instructor) was reportedly arrested earlier int he year. Therefore his case appears only to have affected him personally, not other european qualified snowboard instructors.

Having been there before the trouble and know and worked with some of the then Grade 3s who worked in France for the TOs, I would hate to go back to that state. It was frankly embarassing. I think skimottaret, has it about right.

The snowplough level of some of the 'instructors' I saw in Wengen was dodgy to say the least! I did not enquire about their quals though.

A snowHead

Can anyone post a link or upload the French court case judgement. It was listed on pisthors as court case 590/2006 In Bonneville court, Simon Butler said on Pistehors it is freely available but i cannot locate it.

I have someone fluent in French and within the BASI system interested and willing to translate.

Saint, you mentioned that you have read the case, any chance of scanning it in and uploading Very Happy

rob@rar, A rumour I heard in Courchevel last week was the New Gen didnt receive CdF status because they dont have a B.E.E.S. 2 on staff. French ISTD's Nationales are all BEES L1 and the level 2 is a race coach or instructor trainer of some description. There is a BEES 3 level as well which is like a professor of skiing teaching University Sports degree students.

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

skimottaret, NewGen have any number of BASI Trainers and APC Level 2s working for them. Wouldn't that count as BEES 2 equivalent? I had a lesson with the head of the NewGen school in Les Arcs today and we talked about the Simon Butler case. He's not sure what the implications are but they seem to be following things closely.

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rob@rar, not sure if a BASI trainer is equivalent to a BEES 2 in the same vein as ISTD Equivalence not counting as a French Nationale

The word i got was that to get CdF you need access to a stade, so many French Nationales (the number wasnt clear) and a performance trainer/director on staff who has to be a BEES 2. THe person i spoke with (a brit BASI trainer) also said that Magic had spoiled the pitch by taking the p**s and not performing training adequately when they got CdF status and the local authorities are loath to issue any more centres.

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I'm really surprised that Magic got status. I always thought they were a much smaller outfit. Shame they didn't do a better job.

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rob@rar, they are pretty big in Meribel and they recently merged with Ski Academy. Could just be sour grapes from the person i spoke with but he said they just loaded up on tons on stagieres to cut costs and didnt do a lot of training. I do know one guy who works for magic and is just going through the motions (grade 3 with a eurotest pass a couple years ago and just did his mountain safety)

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skimottaret, maybe I'm a bit behind the times. All my 3V instruction in the last few years has been with a guy from Supreme.

After all it is free

rob@rar, i was told once that Supreme had CdF status but i think that is wrong. The only people i know working for Supreme are defo ISTD's

BUMP, has there been any updates on this court case? Does anyone have a copy of the judgement or a link to it?

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I'll nail my colours to the mast here as a long-time hack on the king of the red-tops! This story very nearly appeared in the supersoaraway Sun newspaper. (But in the end, um, didn't for no valid reason!)

A BRITISH ski instructor has won a landmark court case that could finally open up the French Alps to more British-trained instructors.

The ruling - by a French court - is expected to end the bitter seven-year dispute between the Brits led by Megeve-based Simon Butler and their counterparts, the French national ski school L'Ecole de Ski Francais (ESF).

At the heart of the dispute was the ESF contention that Butler's company, Simon Butler Skiing, was jeopardising their livelihoods and was not qualified to teach in France, despite him being a BASI Class 1 instructor - the highest certificate awarded by the British Association of Snowsport Instructors.

Butler, who has taught in France for 25 years, claims he and his staff have suffered years of intimidation and abuse on the slopes from ESF members. And after numerous court appearances and arrests, Butler was summoned to court again in Bonneville where he faced the risk of a hefty 15,000euro fine, a ban from skiing with clients in France and even a year's imprisonment.

To the fury of the ESF and amazement of the Brit contingent, the court ruled in Butler's favour that ski instructors with British qualifications should not be subject of any further criminal proceedings and allowed to work in France. ESF chose not to appeal the judgment.

A relieved and delighted Butler said: "I am surprised, elated and genuinely shocked. To win the in the ESF's own backyard is incredible. I've been battling for seven years, I've been abused and threatened physically and the issue has cost me tens of thousands of pounds. There there were times when I thought I would just clear off go somewhere else, but when you know you're in the right you stick by your guns."

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