 Poster: A snowHead
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"Some resorts in France and Switzerland have introduced speed cameras and hand-held radar devices in a move aimed at reducing accidents on pistes. The limit on many has been set at 30kph, a little under 19 mph, but far lower speeds are expected on easier slopes." I know it's a dubious source for accuracy but 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I remember clearly the 2016 incident. Horrible to hear of it again, plus the clearly deep impact on Vincent Fouche. An English friend from Geneva was in Flaine that day and the description was so close to her appearance that we were phoning to establish contact, which we did, to our relief, but confirming how awful it was for the other person and her family.
Signage can help. Remodelling pistes can be important, if incidents are occurring in the same place. But it needs to be approached with huge care - sometimes remodelling introduces new choke points, or new zones where routes join and mingle, etc. which always are higher risk areas.
Quite seriously, I think there should be more 'skull' danger signs, indicating high risk zones. When a sport is dependent on self-regulation, you need to remind people of risk.
https://www.cleanpng.com/png-road-signs-in-singapore-traffic-sign-warning-sign-6106821/
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I believe the 2016 death in Flaine referred to was caused by a snowboarder doing jump back onto serpentine and hitting the female skier
Tragic loss of a lovely lady
Jackie worked with her husband in SCGB Chalet
We were there week before and she made our week in the garden shed really special
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| T Bar wrote: |
Which is what skiing down a closed piste with poles allows you to do, Why have a piste which allows you to crash into others with impunity, without breaking the rules? Which legislature would allow this? |
Yes indeed, but that's just one solution. Given the numbers of people that like to go fast, the different ways in which they wish to do it (e.g. carving vs bombing), and the rate at which lifts can get people up to the top of a slope, having one person go at a time and make turns around poles might not be as feasible as just giving them a red the width of a football field to play on. Who knows what will happen, but hopefully something will. The rise of snowparks shows that if there's sufficient demand for a something then a solution is likely to appear.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| snowornever wrote: |
I believe the 2016 death in Flaine referred to was caused by a snowboarder doing jump back onto serpentine and hitting the female skier
Tragic loss of a lovely lady
Jackie worked with her husband in SCGB Chalet
We were there week before and she made our week in the garden shed really special |
https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=2885277
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@greengriff, Think it was when we were in Flachau, they'd setup various short 'events' areas with timing gear - there was a parallel slalom course, a small banked slalom and a speed trap area, also some jumps with cameras setup so you tag your lift pass, and log on later and get your photo doing the jump. They were fun, but its not addressing the core issue - you can provide any number of Designated Zones for people to do things or go fast, but some are still going to slalom a snake as speed, or see how fast they can go down some pitch, or pop on and off the sides of pistes, because it is, fundamentally, fun, and that's why they're there to enjoy themselves. And lets not kid ourselves, its why we go too.
All of those thing are doable IF you respect the environment you're doing it in, and other mountain users, and that will mean compromising your speed run if its busy or aborting your nice little side-hit if you can't be sure that your landing is clear.
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Many people don’t actually seem to understand that the fun/hard bit of skiing is making turns!
My wife (ex-racer) skied with a French colleague, who had been described as an ‘expert, fast’ skier. The next day he told me in astonishment about all the little turns she did! She just described him as a dangerous idiot 
Similarly, I recently showed a friend a video of me (badly) skiing a slalom. Immediate response, “oh I’m much faster, here’s a video of me straightlining a black”.
There is a huge division between those who regard skiing as a sport, and those who regard it as an activity. I am not sure what can be done. Our approach is simply to avoid big resorts and the holiday weeks. I feel sorry for those who are bound to those periods, it sounds horrible.
The best solution to me is actually to reduce capacity of e.g. resorts, accommodation, car parking etc. It’ll never happen of course.
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
@greengriff, ...because it is, fundamentally, fun, and that's why they're there to enjoy themselves. And lets not kid ourselves, its why we go too.
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A very honest comment!
How to build respect though? People have no internal speedometer, and many seem to have almost no sense of spatial awareness. It's almost like they'd have to actually hit something/someone and feel pain themselves before the penny dropped.
Another possible approach in the meantime would be to encourage people to wear back protectors and bodyarmour. I started when I was a snowboarder to protect myself from repeated edge catches when I was learning, and it just became a habit. It has undoubtedly saved my holiday (if not my bones and my life) on more than one occasion, probably the most notable being when I was standing in a lift queue, and an out of control guy plunged straight into me. He was quite hurt and I was in some pain, but uninjured, which I put down to the armour.
Although, actually that might be counter intuitive. If people feel armoured and invincible, maybe they will take more reckless chances.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@JamesHJ, Re: solutions. The best solution would be to never let your skis go anywhere your brain hasn't been first. It's a recycled flying adage, but it's appropriate anywhere where one's mass and speed could hurt someone. But it relies on people thinking...
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| JamesHJ wrote: |
Many people don’t actually seem to understand that the fun/hard bit of skiing is making turns!
My wife (ex-racer) skied with a French colleague, who had been described as an ‘expert, fast’ skier. The next day he told me in astonishment about all the little turns she did! She just described him as a dangerous idiot
Similarly, I recently showed a friend a video of me (badly) skiing a slalom. Immediate response, “oh I’m much faster, here’s a video of me straightlining a black”.
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This. Occasionally on the EOSB I've taken out SL skis in the morning while waiting for the thaw. Inevitably I end up far behind whatever group I'm with and knackered because I'm doing about 40 turns on a pitch to their 4 or 5.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| JamesHJ wrote: |
| Many people don’t actually seem to understand that the fun/hard bit of skiing is making turns! |
I can understand your point, but it does smack a little of "You're enjoying it wrong!"
Through various factors we're funnelling more and more people into the same space within an ever-compressed time window. With 2 kids in tow, we are pretty much bound to holiday weeks one way or another. Almost all infrastructure improvements you see are aligned to getting more people into resort and up the hill quicker and quicker, or improving the snowmaking. Maybe more visible patrol presence would help, maybe it wouldn't but as a bottom line cost to running the resort it doesn't get punter cash into the till.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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One of the reasons why I often prefer to ski Reds and Blacks is because they have less people on them so I am intrinsically safer ... I have no idea of the statistics but I suspect that I am more likely to pick up an injury as the result of a collision with a human rather than anything else, and this is most likely to happen on a crowded Blue run, especially a scrapped one back to the resort.
Also Reds and Blacks tend to make people concentrate on technique, speed, gradient and physical barriers (not everyone!)
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@Richard_Sideways, thanks, point taken 
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You know it makes sense.
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@DavidYacht, fair enough, but how often have you had to arrest or interrupt your R/B run due to someone out of their depth - R/B runs are not the preserve of the competent, plenty of snakes there as groups progress.
I've certainly parked my back bottom at the lip or side of a black before to wait for it to clear a bit before dropping into it, or gone off the sides to avoid some particularly erratic soul. That's what I'm talking about when I say Respect - I have no wish to crowd out someone, particularly someone who seems unsure about the situation they're in as that's when mistakes happen, plus if i'm on a higher consequence pitch, then I want to have the room to make and quick corrections to what I'm doing without having to worry about what's around as much.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
I've certainly parked my back bottom at the lip or side of a black before to wait for it to clear a bit before dropping into it, or gone off the sides to avoid some particularly erratic soul. That's what I'm talking about when I say Respect - I have no wish to crowd out someone, particularly someone who seems unsure about the situation they're in as that's when mistakes happen, plus if i'm on a higher consequence pitch, then I want to have the room to make and quick corrections to what I'm doing without having to worry about what's around as much.
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Agreed
But at least you know that you can wait a little while for the pitch to clear, on the crowded blues that I am thinking of they never ease off.
I do a boys (well old boys) week most years (not for a couple of years though) and there is a preference amongst my peers for "cruisy blues" ... to be honest I think they prefer these because they can ski these at higher speed without being challenged by the geography, if there is a choice I would probably take the red or black and meet them at the bottom lift.
I think that there is an intrinsic risk with the direction of commercialisation by resorts, which leads to high densities of incompatible skiers on blue runs especially back to resorts.
I am off to 3Vs in a few weeks time and there are plenty of useful takeaways from this thread, so maybe the thread drift is justified.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| DavidYacht wrote: |
I think that there is an intrinsic risk with the direction of commercialisation by resorts, which leads to high densities of incompatible skiers on blue runs especially back to resorts.
I am off to 3Vs in a few weeks time and there are plenty of useful takeaways from this thread, so maybe the thread drift is justified. |
It's always been there but increases in grooming quality and snowmaking along with ski design which enable people to go fast with the illusion of control have probably increased the "I like to ski fast" tendency. And home runs have always been nightmares as long as I've been skiing just what was a laugh as a teen turns into a hazard avoidance soup as a more experienced adult. It's not commercialisation per se other than the grooming. Make everyone get back to resort on au natural snow and there would be a lot more people downloading but first they'd be complaining that it was a disgrace that the resort hadn't bothered grooming Motorway X.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Dave of the Marmottes, Get your point entirely, but you know resorts won't do it and people will throw themselves down anything in Hometime Fever - if they don't provide easy access then they get labelled as "Dangerous", "Experts Only" or worse "Crap", and people don't go and the coins stop flowing - hence the artificial snowmaking and pisteing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The very busy funnel runs going into Arc 2000 at lunch / close of the day put an end to our trips there as it was often chaos and my wife really did not like the proximity of fast skiers.
I purposely skiied quite defensively behind my young daughter to take any impact because it was so forseeable. The inevitable collision actually happened in another resort when I was taken from out from behind by an out of control lady who did not even shout a warning. My little one was skiing on extended reigns in front of me at the time but was luckily uninjured.
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@Richard_Sideways, Which is why resorts will very carefully avoid doing anything about this latest tragedy. And why after the current "how awful - something must be done" is burnt out we'll forget about it and quite happily continue zooming those blues. Just for anyone with any sense do so with your head on a swivel and teach your kids how to do the same.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| greengriff wrote: |
| dode wrote: |
| Quote: |
People are already recklessly endangering other people. Marshalling it into somewhere where the participants are all willing volunteers would be a step up in my view.
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Are you actually suggesting assigning a part of the hill where the Skier Code doesn’t exist?
I really don’t think that is a clever idea (I’m showing @jedster, levels of politeness here too) |
No. Think of track days vs driving on the road. |
As has been said, the analogy with track days would be recreational racing through gates on a closed piste. Not saying on Thursday no rules apply on the A34 - drive how you like!
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| jedster wrote: |
As has been said, the analogy with track days would be recreational racing through gates on a closed piste. Not saying on Thursday no rules apply on the A34 - drive how you like! |
No. On a track day you will have maybe 50 bikes using the track simultaneously, not 1 at a time. And Thursday on the A34 would contain many people just going home from work/going to visit their nan. Road races on public roads do occur, but said roads are closed to non-participants.
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| bezthespaniard wrote: |
Used to wonder how things like this could happen.
But then I went on a lads ski trip to Tignes. One of our group wanted to race back to the chalet and we agreed a finish line, well before the blue/green sloped of the town.
As we entered the baby slope area, everyone slowed down apart from the one lad who was hurtling down a very busy slope, full of nervous beginners.
He hit a 65+ year old lady at full pelt. Luckily no one was hurt but ski patrol saw what happened and took his pass away, thankfully. |
I've been busy with work for the last day, and came back to this thread assuming someone else would have picked up on this, maybe they have and I've missed it, if so sorry for repetition, but if not, I'll bite:
@bezthespaniard, I don't care where your finish line was, no matter how far above the town, there is no place for ski racing on open pistes, anymore than there is any place for car/motorcycle racing on open roads.
I've raced motorsports and to be competitive you are only just on the right side of in control most of the time. Only just. I imagine ski racing is exactly the same.
No place for it on any open piste, full stop.
BTW, I'm not being holier then thou, I only wish I could lay claim to never having mis-behaved on piste, but you need to see the error of your post only criticising one in your party.
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| Quote: |
to be competitive you are only just on the right side of in control most of the time
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it's the same in dinghy and yacht racing. Good seamanship doesn't often win races. But the consequences of mistakes are usually not fatal. I'd agree that any racing on open pistes, at whatever level, is wrong. I was once passed (perfectly safely) on an otherwise empty red piste in Praz sur Arly by two very fast skiers. One of them crashed, and cartwheeled down the slope, losing a ski on the way. I picked my way down to him, picking up one of his skis on the way, and was relieved to find he was fine. They were two young French guys. As I stood talking to the guy on the ground, and giving him back his ski, his laughing mate insisted on taking a photo of us. He was no doubt planning to get some more laughs, showing their friends the photo of the elderly Brit n who'd had to help pick up the pieces. In the circumstances, they weren't doing anything terrible. They had not put me in any danger and there was nobody else on the piste. It was the sort of thing that happens all the time but whether it had been made explicit or not, they were effectively racing.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I don't actually have much of a problem with speed per se. Race kids are annoying when they choose to buzz you and have a little too much self regard but they aren't really an objective danger due to the fact that they are probably only ever going 80 percent of capacity and have heaps of control. The 1 week per year blue run hero going the same speed is terrifying as you just know they don't have any spare capacity for evasive moves.
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@midgetbiker, @pam w, Could not agree more, ski racing is just the same where the balance is more towards speed than control. Recreational skiers will not have the skills or experience to judge exactly where that edge is, making them all the more dangerous if racing,
@bezthespaniard it is irresponsible and unacceptable at any time to race on any piste that is open to the public. I don't care how empty it is. Nor how skilled you are.
If you want to race, there are often timed courses available for the public which you should use, or arrange a day with a race coach (let me know if you want to I might be able to set you up). who will be able to take you to a dedicated area. You can also sometimes negotiate to ski a piste before it is open - I did this once in Switzerland where I raced an ex-europa racer and ex-professional freeskier down a red slope. He skied it switch. And beat me. I do a bit of seniors racing and do some kids coaching but a completely different level. Might give you a sense of the level of skill that ski racers develop, and how much closer to the edge they can get. He would never, ever even think about skiing like that in any circumstances on a piste open to the public.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The only time I've been bothered by race kids is when competing with them to get into the funicular in Deux Alpes. Little sods. At one point Charlotte (easiski) shouted at them in French that they should be ashamed elbowing past a poor little old lady (ie me..... ).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| zikomo wrote: |
| If you want to race, there are often timed courses available for the public which you should use, or arrange a day with a race coach (let me know if you want to I might be able to set you up). who will be able to take you to a dedicated area |
I do think it would be a good idea for reps to give people a talk along these lines.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| they don't have any spare capacity for evasive moves. |
This is a key point. Skiers who are at or beyond the limit of their skill. Combined with an effective reliance on the slower skier NOT making a mistake.
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You know it makes sense.
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I blame the widespread use of helmets. A lack of peripheral hearing and more restricted vision, combined with a feeling of invincibility leads to reduced awareness and higher speeds and inevitably more accidents.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@zzz, +1
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Poster: A snowHead
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| zzz wrote: |
| I blame the widespread use of helmets. A lack of peripheral hearing and more restricted vision, combined with a feeling of invincibility leads to reduced awareness and higher speeds and inevitably more accidents. |
I just blame cocks not abiding by the mountain rules
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| zzz wrote: |
| I blame the widespread use of helmets. A lack of peripheral hearing and more restricted vision, combined with a feeling of invincibility leads to reduced awareness and higher speeds and inevitably more accidents. |
Surely the periphery of vision is dictated by the goggles and not the helmet? My helmet also makes hearing easier as I don't have the wind noise whipping past head.
I do take the point about some people feeling invincible though. I think this is a know phenomenon. Though there are plenty of other ways to b*gger yourself up than banging your head, so the fear of broken legs/arms/back should still serve to slow people down.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@zzz, Helmets must be the most controversial subject on this forum!
I only started wearing a helmet when the kids started skiing, more out of shame than anything else if I am honest. But now find it strange that I did not think to wear one before.
I don't really subscribe to the notion that the perceived protection of helmets has led to increased risk taking. Not least as like most, I did not really consider head injury a significant risk when I skied without one. And I do not feel I am less aware of others when I am wearing one. I can hear just fine and situational awareness feels the same.
That said I do think that avalanche packs and rockered skis have led to increased risk taking. I see quite a few more people than I used to on slopes they should not be on either due to a lack of skill or the inherent danger of the terrain.
IMV skis that are easier to carve are more of the problem on piste. A skier of limited skill is likely to be able to find and hold an edge in the second half of a turn, but will not be able to easily release the edge/change direction/stop once in the carve. And the trajectory of a carved turn, with acceleration, is more likely to lead to conflicting paths with other skiers than a skidded turn. There was a similar problem with snowboards when they first became popular, as an unskilled rider could "get down" much steeper terrain much earlier in their progression, and the trajectory is different (as is the "blind spot").
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Helmets are just a rouge poisson in all of this obviously - you might as well blame people who don't have snowchains as inability to plan ahead for driving conditions is indicative of an inability to plot a safe route down the slope. A bigger problem is that collisions are commonplace and accepted as the majority don't actually result in injury but a brief apology and a shrug. If perps were fully chewed out for such events (or better I think a rule that if someone hit you you were entitled to take their equipment and ski to the bottom of the mountain to give them the benefit of some self reflection time while they walked down) then maybe they wouldn't get to the stage of killing and injuring others.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@under a new name, @zzz, I can see the tongue in cheek element now, thanks for pointing it out. No safety related thread would be complete without a good old barney about helmets though!
The point about avalanche packs is quite well researched, and I worry that I may well have unconsciously fallen into the trap on occasion. I now plan routes the day before, and agree decision points and metrics. I then always have an explicit discussion with guide or buddy about what we are about to drop into, why it is a good idea, and why it is NOT a good idea. I never ski with anyone who would complain when any of the party calls it off, instincts should always be listened to in a risk environment. I have to say my discipline in this has massively improved since my daughter started joining me on more technical descents, which is great but a bit shameful that it took that to make it happen!
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| Quote: |
If perps were fully chewed out for such events
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@Dave of the Marmottes, I think see that more often when skiing in Scotland. Rounded condemnation from those in the vicinity. I think a lot skiers are less vocal in larger alpine resorts because of the language barrier (my French is ok, but my German & Italian is embarrassingly poor). At resorts where you get tourists from many countries, speaking many different languages, it is easier for the perp to ski off with a shrug pretending that they don't understand.
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@zikomo, Hadn't realised it had been well studied at all. Interesting.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @zikomo, Hadn't realised it had been well studied at all. Interesting. |
Is it called 'risk compensation' or something like that? Well documented that increased (perceived or actual) safety/protective gear (helmets, body armour, seat belts, avi packs, etc etc) lead to increased risk taking.
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@dode, Two cracked ribs when an out of control idiot crashed into me in Switzerland. He understood me perfectly well following the incident. Despite it being clear he did not speak English.
Kids have had near misses and been taken out (no injury) a few times. Again I have found those involved understood me perfectly well. Including a very drunk Russian whi struggled to speak in his own language let alone English.
Language is not a barrier in these situations, at least not for me.
But I do agree, Scottish skiers do seem to have good etiquette and are not shy in telling-off anyone misbehaving. Maybe because people feel they will be supported by ithers they are more willing to confront?
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FAQ
