 Poster: A snowHead
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| tatmanstours wrote: |
It’s currently at the forefront of my mind, as it’s become apparent that very few restrictions are now being enforced here in Saalbach. On the last two Saturdays we’ve attended very busy and convivial “apres-soleil” parties at the Spitzbub - each time getting on for 100 people in attendance.
From my observations, people are hugging, kissing, shaking hands and conversing as normal. After living through the severe lockdown a couple of months ago, and becoming used to wearing masks and touching elbows as a greeting - even at one stage having our shopping done by volunteers and delivered to our door, the current laxity of precautions is a vaguely concerning contrast. Although the current infection rate is still very low, it only takes one incoming, infected tourist to set things off.
If things are carrying on pretty well as normal at this stage of the pandemic, one can easily imagine things getting out of hand in the winter.
In the last day or two I’ve chatted to people from the U.K., Sweden, Germany and the Netherlands. I spent most of today (Sunday) at a mountain restaurant, where a party got going in the evening - singing, dancing, etc. to all the usual apres-ski party songs. Again no distancing - people getting very friendly and hugging and shaking hands with complete strangers. . |
That sounds all fairly mental - so the bar/hut owners are quite happy to risk a winter lockdown for the sake of some summer revenue? And remember it doesn't even need to be a rogue tourist bringing it, delivery drivers are more than possible. I fear that tourism is going to get screwed one way or another by illogical blame being placed on tourists from particular countries (& yes UK gov has set UK citizens up perfectly to be pariahs everywhere with their politics first mindset).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@tatmanstours, I agree Richard but also completely understand why folks want to feel normal. Maybe those countries that had very sudden, strict, apparently successful but relatively short lockdowns where all normality was completely suspended will find it more difficult to adjust to a 'new normal' than those where it was less strict and the lifting more gradual thus 'training' the people a bit more? Just a theory.
In general, as I said above, we aren't going to book anything until the last minute as things stand. I mentioned Obergurgl and that might work well as (for those that don't know) it's essentially about 30 hotels of which only 8 or so are larger, all mainly 4 and 5 star and relatively very little S/C accommodation surrounding a tiny strung out hamlet. It's almost literally tumbleweed in summer when only a couple of hotels open for walkers.
There are two Aprés Ski bars, one is the famous Nederhütte which is noisy and jam packed but genuinely Aprés only and empty by 7pm, the other one in the village then sort of takes over, but its not really a big deal either in size or in numbers. Probably 95%+ of those holidaying there return to their hotel by 6pm and don't go out again until morning. If the Nederhütte was much restricted in numbers and without the house band and party then that would be missed but in recent years it's become so popular that you pretty much needed to be in by 2pm to get a seat for a party starting at 4pm. So it's not the everyday thing it used to be, in fact on my last trip we only did the 'full session' once.
So, thinking that if restrictions come winter are more serious then the set up there might make for a more 'tolerable' experience in that many of the optional evening entertainments and s/c dine out culture of a Saalbach for example just doesn't exist and thus we wouldn't then have to 'miss' what isn't normally there?
One final thought actually comes from from the main reason that the Nederhütte has become so popular and that is because they've formalised the link and thus the numbers and frequency of transport between Obergurgl and Sölden with one result being busloads of party trippers coming up from there just for the Nederhütte. In fact from last season they were marketing the entire Öztal as one area. Fine in normal times but you do wonder if one aspect of next winter will be restricting visitors to their 'residential' resort town by deactivating free travel between them? Now that would be harder to do in the Glemmtal where the slopes link anyway but really easy in such as the Öztal where the ski areas are miles apart. A number of other ostensibly 'linked' areas where you can't actually link without taking the skis off and using other transport might do the same?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@robboj, fair point your last one, I can see the folks in Zurs and Lech, plus Warth lobbying hard to stop the Antoners coming over the hill for the white ring, or run of fame (whatever it’s called these days).
Tirol and Vorarlberg are different regions after all.
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| Markymark29 wrote: |
@robboj, fair point your last one, I can see the folks in Zurs and Lech, plus Warth lobbying hard to stop the Antoners coming over the hill for the white ring, or run of fame (whatever it’s called these days).
Tirol and Vorarlberg are different regions after all. |
Easy enough to do - just don't run the Flexenbahn and the regular buses from Rauz.
But counterproductive - resorts have spend years and millions in redesign and marketing to sell themselves as big interconnected "freedom" areas. Going to be hard for them to start pushing for the opposite. And I know I'd be f**ked off to shell out for a Arlberg week pass and find half the area was off limits. It's not going to be the interconnectedness of resorts per se* that will be the problem but the way people behave in individual ones. *Arlberg has a lot of problems due to the essentialness of enclosed uplift, Rendl, Galzig, Nasserein, Rufikopf, Stuben, Warth interconnect, Flexenbahn all an issue.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| But counterproductive - resorts have spend years and millions in redesign and marketing to sell themselves as big interconnected "freedom" areas. Going to be hard for them to start pushing for the opposite. And I know I'd be f**ked off to shell out for a Arlberg week pass and find half the area was off limits. It's not going to be the interconnectedness of resorts per se* that will be the problem but the way people behave in individual ones. *Arlberg has a lot of problems due to the essentialness of enclosed uplift, Rendl, Galzig, Nasserein, Rufikopf, Stuben, Warth interconnect, Flexenbahn all an issue. |
Personally I rather be restricted in ski area (within reason) than I would be in other aspects of the ski holiday experience. But I appreciate others might see it differently.
Unless its so bad that's there's no skiing I suspect it's going to be quite political as countries and even states 'compete' for tourists. Skiing holidays are so unique in habits that the summer season won't really show us what's likely IMHO?
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@Dave of the Marmottes, yup it’s going to be a tough one to resolve. I don’t think a mandatory mask policy is going to be enough, I’d not be happy in a big gondola or bubble. I had a thought that maybe they could buy a few hundred new chairs and stand the bubbles like Schindler and Albona etc down next season and revert to chairs.....could they run them on the same cable systems etc? Maybe start the big lifts like Nassereinbahn and Galzig earlier at first light to get all up to mid station, but then what about pow/ blasting days, chaos!
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| That sounds all fairly mental - so the bar/hut owners are quite happy to risk a winter lockdown for the sake of some summer revenue? And remember it doesn't even need to be a rogue tourist bringing it, delivery drivers are more than possible. I fear that tourism is going to get screwed one way or another by illogical blame being placed on tourists from particular countries (& yes UK gov has set UK citizens up perfectly to be pariahs everywhere with their politics first mindset). |
| robboj wrote: |
| Maybe those countries that had very sudden, strict, apparently successful but relatively short lockdowns where all normality was completely suspended will find it more difficult to adjust to a 'new normal' than those where it was less strict and the lifting more gradual thus 'training' the people a bit more? Just a theory. |
Replace 'training' with 'terrifying' and you're getting there. It may sound 'mental' to you, but it seems fairly normal to me and I'm not at all surprised. From talking to people living in other European countries back in April, one stark difference between us and people in the UK was the amount of fear in the population. This was very, very noticeable when talking to pretty much anyone who lived there. Fast forward a few months and the UK's world beating fatality rate goes a long way to justifying it, but apart from a few weeks in March where the Austrian govt tried the fear tactic (they soon got found out and ended up looking a bit silly), it has never really become embedded in the national psyche in the same way. Everyone is really chilled out.
As an example, last weekend the police ended up attending an illegal rave in the Sill gorge near the Brenner. In summer, these parties are a semi-organised open secret and tolerated because they don't generally cause anyone any trouble. Apparently, someone ended up a bit poorly and the police were called, but the subsequent press report had no mention of Covid, despite a few thousand people being in attendance. They were more concerned about people getting paralytic and taking too many drugs.
Yes, the infection rate in Tirol has increased since the borders opened – we were down to 4 cases about a month ago, but are now at just under 50 – but the number of hospitalisations is not increasing, so the level of concern is still low. Quite a few cases have been traced to tourists – someone on a road trip who stayed at several hotels, for example, has started a small cluster in one family hotel – or people returning from trips to Asia or Eastern European countries, so people are maybe more wary of travellers.
The relaxed attitude may turn out to be too complacent. Time will tell, I guess.
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| Quote: |
That sounds all fairly mental - so the bar/hut owners are quite happy to risk a winter lockdown for the sake of some summer revenue?
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@Dave of the Marmottes, the impression I get is that bar/hut owners are trying to walk a tightrope between preserving their livelihoods and complying with current rules. There is of course a temptation to pay lip service to the rules, especially when people are enjoying themselves and business is good.
No one knows what the winter will bring, so there is also a temptation/pressure to make hay while the sun shines.
Another thing I’ve noticed is that a lot of the business owners and staff ,as well as some tourists) have had, or think they have had, the lurgi, and they assume that they are now immune and can , to some degree, relax. Of course any such complacency is not supported by the latest scientific news.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Scarlet wrote: |
Replace 'training' with 'terrifying' and you're getting there. It may sound 'mental' to you, but it seems fairly normal to me and I'm not at all surprised. From talking to people living in other European countries back in April, one stark difference between us and people in the UK was the amount of fear in the population.
The relaxed attitude may turn out to be too complacent. Time will tell, I guess. |
It seems at odds with a supposed strict border regime where e.g. UK resdients are required to produce a short dated testing certificate. If e.g. Germans are driving in freely, getting pissed and hugging while shouting "you're my best friend I love you maaan" in each others' faces it's hard to see consistency of policy. I'd love to see UK "back to normal" but realistically it isn't going to be possible - we have mass transit that seems to be uniquely vulnerable and a complete absence of nous/ambition to do any effective screening at our borders. I'm just hoping I'll be able to drive somewhere by Xmas, be allowed in and have skiing open and available by then. If a bunch of people getting their oompah on in the summer stops that I think it's a bit stupid for the Austrian ski industry as a whole, particularly as it is perfectly possible to sit outdoors at many lovely huts etc quite "safely". But as you say time will tell..,I'd been hoping that time might tell a bit more clearly by September perhaps even Xmas will be close to the wire...
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@Dave of the Marmottes, Oh sure, it's not consistent, but the rules are made in Vienna which is a long way away  I've only been to the huts in the daytime (no music or parties), but have no reason to doubt @tatmanstours tales. In the ones I've been to recently, the masks have gone, the signage has gone, tables are used as normal, but it doesn't feel 'unsafe'. The situation can change very quickly though.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Scarlet, that's the thing isn't it..no one has any idea if something is safe or not. People might feel safe but there might be a shedload of asymptomatic carriers
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@holidayloverxx, Exactly. I find myself thinking what a fully aware and socially responsible fly on the wall might be thinking at the current hair letting-down events.
It’s become clear to me (and I’m certainly not claiming any special powers of observation) that people need clear and legally enforceable rules and boundaries. Leaving it to individual discretion and common sense is a complete non-starter. At least the Austrians seem to be pretty good at obeying rules (when they are implemented) - relatively speaking.
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You know it makes sense.
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@munich_irish, there may well also be a correlation between the degree of nervousness and the age/vulnerability of some of us.
How severe the curtailment is likely to be, and the form it is likely to take, appears to be the crux - which no doubt bring us back to square one.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@munich_irish, i think something you may be missing regards “brits” and the nervousness is that we are a country of 60 million people, with a population density in England for example 420/ sq km compared with that in Austria for example of 104/ sq km, and Germany 240/ sq km. London population is the same size as the whole of Austria, ie c.9m people. London population density is 5700/ sq km, Austria’s is 104/ sq km. Most UK major cities have a population density well into the 1000’s so with a growing acceptance that CV-19 is an airborne virus people in UK are many times more likely to get infected in the UK, and we have 7x as many people as Austria, so hence the nervousness. Munich has only 1.5m people and a population density of only 4500/ sq km and is the most densely populated part of Germany, so any comparisons between the infection rate in Germany/ Austria and UK imv are not particularly helpful.
Add to this that it is clear that Austria only managed the pandemic via a well-publicised total lockdown locally after it had thrown its tourists out from the areas of high infection, prior to that it, and Italy are well accepted as the main source of infection spread in Europe, so I think for Austria to sit back and think the new normal is oompah lunches, lack of social distancing, tables close together and beery dancing etc seems slightly ill-founded and a recipe for a second spike imo. Perhaps a bit more caution may not be a bad thing.
So, yes whilst most people in the UK don’t like Johnson and his government, and Brexit either any taking of high moral high ground should be done cautiously by those using us as benchmark not to copy, UK are not the dirty-man of Europe, we just happen to live in a densely populated part of it and are an easy scapegoat for others to poke sticks at, and close the borders to in order to demonstrate to their own people what a great job they are doing........time will tell.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Mon 13-07-20 15:48; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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| munich_irish wrote: |
@Dave of the Marmottes, not sure why public transport in the UK should be different to elsewhere. In Munich (and all of Germany as far as I am aware) local public transport has run as normal the entire time. It is not as busy as it would normally be but certainly lots of folk going in to town for work, shopping or whatever..... However I am coming round to the view that until (if!) there is some sort of reasonably effective vaccine, activities like skiing are going to be severely curtailed. |
I'm pretty sure it's been running all the time in the UK too, just early in the lockdown we were treated to images of police interrogating would be tube travellers and I along with almost everyone I speak to has almost no desire to start travelling on the tube yet (and in the main no great need given offices aren't open yet). I was basically referencing the fairly crappy way our transport networks operate e.g. almost everyone flying into a London airport has to transit through central London for onward travel and the general hub and spoke nature of travel around cities.
Skiing itself ought to be one of the more possible activities - chairlifts are non face to face, buffs easy to pull up around face, dining on terraces or off peak times indoors feasible but loud apres bars not so much.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Dave of the Marmottes, it HAS been working 100% of the time, but with much reduced timetables and travellers at the peak of the pandemic. Some TfL tube stations were mothballed but the national infrastructure kept running. I personally have no desire to travel on a train (or plane) right now, but for those that do then they are well able to do so, the TOC’s in the UK have imo done an excellent job of moving goods and key workers around during the pandemic.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Careful. It's starting to read a bit like “look at those folks over there out drinking and having fun and they won't let us join in...” Bah humbug
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@Markymark29, I am tending to agree with you. I dont think, in fact, the UK has done so badly except for the catastrophic decision to empty the hospitals of thousands of elderly patients, many of whom had the virus and send them to unequipped and understaffed care homes, all this led to 10s of thousands of premature deaths. Similar things happened elsewhere but have not received the same level of international attention. As far as I can see the levels of virus in the UK is now similar to many other European countries, in fact at a lower level than some countries. Unfortunately that is not as it seems either to the brits themselves or some of the people looking in from the outside.
I would suggest that the amount of "beery dancing" actually happening in Austria is in fact pretty low level far less than might be happening in a "normal" summer. Unlikely to be a critical factor in whether we can go skiing in 5 months time.
However this is a long way from the original purpose of the thread 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| munich_irish wrote: |
| As far as I can see the levels of virus in the UK is now similar to many other European countries, in fact at a lower level than some countries. Unfortunately that is not as it seems either to the brits themselves or some of the people looking in from the outside. |
Probably true, but I think there are a few reasons for this:
1. It was widely publicised that the UK were not doing much testing early on, and so the infection level was unknown (but can now be calculated from the death rate, antibodies etc after the fact). The quality of data has not looked very trustworthy from the outside, and even though testing has now improved, it will take a while to improve this perception.
2. The test and trace system doesn't look very world beating, so there is not much confidence that new cases are being caught.
3. There are still lots of arguments going on about the use of face masks, a measure that was brought in months ago, and in some cases gone out again, across Europe. This makes the UK look like it's way behind everyone else.
A lot of it is about perception, and this is entirely down to inconsistent and incoherent govt policy.
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@Scarlet, exactly.
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| Quote: |
This makes the UK look like it's way behind everyone else.
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Think that would be fair comment for the United States but not the UK - which is not to say UK is/was a shining beacon for it's management of crisis, especially in the Spring. The mortality/hospital admission data gives a good clue to the underlying picture if the testing is not trusted.
https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-19-uk-hospital-admissions/
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@GranthamPaul, you've taken that comment out of context. I did not say what you think I said, and the statement still stands.
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I was talking about perception - a shame if the perception especially at government level can't reflect reality
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Markymark29, your comments about the relative population densities are well made, but, when you say that:
| Quote: |
UK are not the dirty-man of Europe, we just happen to live in a densely populated part of it and are an easy scapegoat for others to poke sticks at, and close the borders to in order to demonstrate to their own people what a great job they are doing........time will tell.
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I find myself wondering why, if the U.K. population is so much “denser”, and therefore more vulnerable, the precautions and restrictions were not correspondingly more timeously, strictly and effectively implemented.
I would hate to see the reviled (by many) Boris cabal able to use population density as an excuse (and Covid19 as a scapegoat for the adverse consequences of Brexit).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Landingv ban from the UK extended to 31st July at the earliest, so I'm not going to Austria next week
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You know it makes sense.
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@holidayloverxx, could you fly to Munich instead?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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[quote="tatmanstours"][
| Quote: |
I would hate to see the reviled (by many) Boris cabal able to use population density as an excuse (and Covid19 as a scapegoat for the adverse consequences of Brexit). |
Latest opinion polls show the Tories well ahead. (But if you are only looking at Guardian and BBC, you wouldn't know that.) Interesting business model you have: "come spend your money in Austria with me - but not if you voted with the majority".
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 14-07-20 11:17; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@holidayloverxx, the trains are running normally so should be no great grief to get to Salzburg if you fly into Munich. There are flights from LHR but dont believe Easyjet are currently flying into Munich. The train is also pretty straight forward, I did London Munich a good few years ago when the volcano stopped the planes, from memory left London around 07:00 Munich around 17:00.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Bennyboy1@munich_irish,
I could fly to Munich but it was a flying  visit. I am in talks with queenie, which, if we can make it work, tajes the pressure off till end Sept when I have another flight booked. Car hire and car park were refundable so Im just waiting for Ryanair to cancel the flight.
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@holidayloverxx, also the option of indirect flights changing somewhere, e.g. Schipol. Still requires the 14 day quarantine or recent negative test though.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| holidayloverxx wrote: |
| Landingv ban from the UK extended to 31st July at the earliest, so I'm not going to Austria next week |
Do you have a link, thanks
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| Sitter wrote: |
| @holidayloverxx, also the option of indirect flights changing somewhere, e.g. Schipol. Still requires the 14 day quarantine or recent negative test though. |
Yes i know, i can get a test in time
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@clarky999, providing we have the test certificate hopefully ok. The autobahn border must be low prob of getting stopped. I wonder if they have manned the boarder before Achensee over the mountain pass.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Landingv ban from the UK extended to 31st July at the earliest, so I'm not going to Austria next week
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Having spent 1700 Euros on a holiday that I won't get back, it look like I'll be going down the £149 x 4 test route to save the holiday. We're very socially distanced as a family so almost no chance of a positive test (not sure about void/inconclusive though).
Official Austrian government sources say nothing about essential travel so won't probe any further.
https://www.bmeia.gv.at/en/austrian-embassy-london/
https://www.austria.org/current-travel-information
Driving so a bit apprehensive about some over-zealous customs official but probably ok if can produce relevant paperwork and emails from Austrian embassy - alternative cross on a remote country road.
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"third-country nationals arriving from out of Schengen area are not allowed to enter Austria"
UK is not considered a third-country for the purposes of this - hence a different bullet for UK on London Embassy website and this sub-heading on Washington Embassy website:
2.2 ENTRY FROM WITHIN THE EU, THE SCHENGEN AREA, SELECT SMALL EUROPEAN NATIONS AND THE UNITED KINGDOM:
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FAQ
