360 Cameras

A snowHead

@Handy Turnip, thanks, I've added the links as to where you can buy the stick and adapter that will basically give you this set-up.

A snowHead

Thanks @Weathercam, much appreciated

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@Handy Turnip, I'm just going out with it Cross Country skating, but think I'm going to have to film training drills with no poles, just skating, holding the stick, will be interesting!

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I think you're saying that skiers need to clamp the pole to the ski pole, so it sticks up maybe 70cm, and that works for skiers? I lend my stuff to them now and then, but I can't really tell them what works for their thing, so it's handy to know. The Insta x3 has a standard small female tripod insert, so mates directly with their pole etc.
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I'm still surprised by how good the Insta x3 is - these are sone simple unprocessed screen grabs from it. These are shots it's quite hard to get with a photographer. Hmm.

That was a set-up for the camera, but I'm thinking that deliberately kicking snow up is the way to go, for stills at least.

The perspective makes the board look bigger than it is: it's a 148.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Took a whole lot of getting used to and the end results were a tad disappointing not so much from the quality of the footage but it showed how bad my technique/style was, not helped by snow being sluggish so gliding was minimal.

Will give it another go this morning as I know now what to work on hopefully and strap the pole to the ski pole better, plus gliding conditions should be way better with a good overnight freeze.

http://youtube.com/v/HQPPTBSfJPM

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Here's a snow video from xmas 2022 / new year 2023 shot on the Insta 360 x3.

https://vimeo.com/789004682

The resolution of the Insta 360 x3 is 5.7k, the same as my 4 year old Rylo. However the Insta output is a significant improvement. My Vimeo account has a couple of Rylo videos which clearly show the quality difference I'm getting from the combination of the x3 plus Topaz.

Cropping into the Insta spherical video, the largest you can get is a quite clean 1080p... not bad, but not great if you're using 4k displays. There's a fix for that...

Tools

Insta 360 x3, Insta 360 Studio 2023
Topaz AI (paid-for version)
Davinci Resolve
Handbrake

Workflow

Use Insta Studio to track the main ego, or use waypoints. Reframe it, tweak field of view.
Export from Insta Studio to ProRes222 (uncompressed) 1920x1080 (1080p) at max data rate (around 140Mbps with snowy stuff).
Import into Topaz AI and up scale to 4k. Take Proteus default settings. The 4K files aren't massively different in size from the 1080p sources.
Stuff clips into DaVinci resolve and edit.
Export finished video as DNxHD 444 12-bit
Use Handbrake to convert DNxHD -> H.265, a conversion which uses the GPU and is real-time.

Notes

Tracking is smooth, easy, and entirely reliable, but it's not "creative". It'll track you, but it'll put you centre frame and has zero imagination.
The "extract all the interesting bits from this clip" feature doesn't understand enough about snow to be useful here.
Tracking is real time on a decent desktop with just snow, slower with a lot of trees or other detail.
On a very powerful laptop with a GPU the frame rate is about 1/15th real time, so this is really a desktop job.
The phone app will do the same thing, but my phone isn't as powerful as either laptop or desktop. That's probably for more people extracting portrait videos of their Insta lips.
Tracking's "person detection" doesn't always cover snowboards, if they're visible above the powder.
You can manually select the whole thing (person plus the board nose) or tweak the field of view a bit after tracking, or use a longer pole than Insta's.
Insta Studio's "project" feature means "create another cut from this same video".
Videos come in pairs (one per lens). The last number in the name is the sequence number, eg 065. If you want to re-edit a clip ending in that, just "open" one or the other of the files for that in InstaStudio.
Topaz is the paid-for component in this work flow. It's not a real-time "wait for it" activity, consuming 100% of my 24 cores and RTX3080Ti/ Studio driver, if you let it.
The Insta's frame rate is 29.97 not 30, so ensure DaVinci Resolve timeline is correct on that, plus also the 4k dimensions (typical defaults are different)
If you export as H.265 (compressed) from the free version of Davinci Resolve, rendering's inordinately slow as it uses only the CPU not the GPU - it's been nerfed.
The work-around is to export uncompressed DNxHD 444 12-bit. Then use Handbrake to quickly do the compression to H.265 via the GPU.
The Insta needs more positive exposure compensation when used on a dull day, same as ordinary cameras. I used +1 throughout and tweaked the dull days in post.

Defects

Insta 360 Studio forgets the video sort order, and comes up with some weird order which isn't shot date/time if you restart it.
Insta's post production "timeshift" is useless: the preview isn't good, it's simpler to do this in other workflow tools.
VLC renders colours slightly video differently from the Insta app, one of them isn't using the OS colour profile correctly.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Is the RS worth considering if I currently dont have an action or 360 camera? 2 lens bundle is the same price as x3

After all it is free

@Gored, I'd go for the RS. I've got the One R and the camera's a bit slow to respond sometimes and the battery life isn't great. The One RS seems to have gone a step further and improved both aspects. The biggest advantage is that you get 2-for-1 cameras in effect and being able to e.g. track someone skiing from behind to in front of you after shooting with the 360 module is so much more flexible than it would be with a typical wide-angle view.

More from my Insta x3, this from Feb / March 2023 in BC:

Snowboarding in Blue River 2022-2023 2 from phil 45464

https://vimeo.com/video/807562250

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@phil_w looking good

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snow reports

@phil_w, awesome Very Happy

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@ukoldschool, wrong for the Max as well as you say Phil, you can't have a 360 camera with a blind spot!!! from gopro.com

A snowHead

A snowHead

@phil_w, this is with the GoPro max 360 held in the right hand against the pole. Your video is much more stable and has less distortion. I’m holding it out in front, I guess you’re holding more to the side? One thing the software can’t do yet is hide the shadow of the pole although I’m sure it’s possible?

http://youtube.com/v/nbf5Cvlppgc

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@Bob, yeah, I think it's much harder for skiers to do this. I don't think the GoPro Max is significantly different from the Insta on stability or distortion (from reviews), although the Insta x3 is newer so I'd expect it to be a bit better. I don't think changing cameras would make much difference.

stability I lent my pole to a skier and cut a video for him earlier this year. It wasn't great, and I don't have permission to make it public (it was his first try)... but I just took another look and it looks more stable than yours. He needs to practice riding with the pole. He was holding the camera similarly to you I think. My skier was enjoying a very smooth powder ride. With your video, the background is stable, which the camera does for you. However the skier however is working hard on what looks like a challenging surface: it doesn't look like a smooth ride. You could try to stabilize it on the skier (something like Davinci Resolve, will do it automagically for free), but then the background would bounce. Either ski slower or pick easier slopes, or stick to powder ha ha.

My previous video (above somewhere) has a final section (0:50~) which is powder over old tracks and logs and stuff, early season, about as bumpy as it's going to get in that sort of terrain. That looks jerky if you look at the wrong bit (if you look at the leg action it's ok, but the head bobs up and down annoyingly). It's a short clip so less obvious until you think about it.

distortion You may mean "compression artefacts" - it looks less sharp etc. I used the maximum data rate and resolution in the workflow (described above somewhere), and that does make a difference. Your video is likely less than 4k also - that Topaz tool I used increases the resolution using more sophisticated algorithms than YouTube does. Summary: I cheated. If you mean yours has "more fish eye distortion", that may be because you have the camera much nearer to the skier than I do. Plus the skis are visible so you can see their shape easily. The video I just posted uses the Insta pole which I think is 1.15m, just about long enough. I also have a 1.4m pole (used for the previous video I posted). Both hold the camera far enough away that you don't have a massive fish-eye effect, and I get more background than you're getting.

I think it's hard for a skier to hold such a long pole in that sort of grip, probably.

With the snowboard I try to hold the pole in either hand, at various angles. In the edit I tend to cut the angles I don't like. Directly in front doesn't work well - the rider looks distorted and the board stupidly long, when it's visible. From about 45° forward all the way back seem to work best. The shot which has the rider side on to the camera with the sun one side or the other tends to work well.

hiding the pole shadow You can do it in Davinci Resolve or other traditional Non Linear Editors like that. I usually do it in frame grabs because that's very easy. It's difficult when the shadow crosses the rider/ skier, so you may want to think about where the sun is in the shot if you intend to do that. I usually try to think about where the sun and any other tracks are in relation to the camera before capture anyway. Getting rid of the shadow in video is essentially a clone combined with waypoints; straight forward or very hard depending on what the shadow's on. I'm not sure it's worth while - people should perhaps not be looking at that, if you get it right?

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It’s a bit better in powder I think.

http://youtube.com/v/EhrKSPlHnxo

But as you say it’s more than good enough for amateur purposes.

I saw a guy attaching it to one side of his pack and then threading it under the opposite shoulder strap.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Yeah powder works better. I have some resort footage, but haven't been motivated to use it... I shall look at it again in a while, but chances are it looked weak so I passed over it. Shame to see powder wasted with skis, mind wink

I see a lot of people with cameras mounted here and there... and a lot less of the output from those devices. I think mostly those things don't work, or they don't work well enough to produce anything more than the person in the video would watch. The ratio of GoPro type cameras sold to output viewed by third parties may be quite large.

The thing I like about this stuff is that it's way better than stills for showing how it actually is; before these, it was hard to explain, now it's simple.

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I think the snowboard footage works well as holding a selfie stick doesn't impinge too much on the boarding. Skiing stuff, especially with the stick removed, looks a bit ungainly and uncanny. As @phil_w says, there is not a great deal of footage but I looked at some where the guy had a pole on his helmet and another on his backpack, again looks a bit weird compared to say drone footage.

The 360 ski footage I've seen doesn't make me want to rush out and buy one as the actioncam footage I've shot looks as good/(bad) to me. It obviously suits snowboarding.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

yup agree, I've had my Max in my rucksack and didn't like how that came out, a long pole gives better results IMHO

This seems pretty stable to me? Seem to remember there is a tickbox for stabilisation post processing? The first part of this video is holding a pole (you can see the shadow), 20 secs in it switches to in the backpack for the rest of the video

http://youtube.com/v/Ov5_NjiSDTc

This is my "best" shot so far I think! but I have stopped taking it out unless conditions are superb and not really on piste....Although it did cause my wife to ask who was skiing with me!

After all it is free

@davidof,

178cm detuned GS skis!

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@Handy Turnip, You can definitely minimise it, IIRC I went for max landscape width as I liked the sky, so I suspect I could edit the fisheye effect out a bit more given time, and energy!

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I usually cba to use my GoPro max when snowboarding these days but did take it to Japan a few weeks ago. It was quite cold (icicles on the beard cold) and the GoPro flat out refused to work - 8 minute long audio with a still captured to go with it, and lots of unhappy beeps from the camera. Been fine at home. Seems to be a known issue.

Might try to sell it and switch to an Insta360. Cost me some social media bragging rights.

Worth the switch?

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I've currently got the insta 360 one x, which I think is great - I've been looking for a good reason to upgrade but couldn't really justify the upgrade yet.

The insta360 one x can record in 5.7k video but if you use the 360 mode, and then edit the video, essentially you end up normal HD quality. I thought that was the same on the X2 and X3 but looking on the insta website, it says in a few places 5.7k 360 video (while it doesn't on the standard X desc).

Is anyone any the wiser?

A snowHead

A snowHead

You can control the projection (how fishy it is) in post production. It's a trade-off.

I think the points about vertical are important in the fish thing. I don't tend to use my own shots when the rider is coming straight at the camera - when the pole is pointing forward. Those shots distort the rider's body, plus the board looks unnaturally long. It's the same thing: you don't want anything important near the edges of the frame. Which is why Landscape with the rider going sideways is better than the other way up, and why a longer pole works better (because the main subject is smaller in the frame). The distance of the subject from the lens is important - think about the people with these helmet mounted.... when you'll see a massive head and tiny feet/skis/board. Some people increase the distance of camera from helmet to reduce that effect - even a small change close by has a large effect. If you shoot enough footage and select stuff which looks better, you'll end up avoiding the fish effect most of the time.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Thanks @phil_w, that's really useful info. And the quality of your footage has definitely got me looking at upscaling software. They are quite expensive but the results are really impressive!

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I'm likely moving away from Apple hardware, I bought Final Cut Pro.

Any advice on Windows software to look at? I might only film/edit a very few times and don't want to paying the Adobe monthly fee!

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

@ht I looked at that cost as... a percentage increase in the cost of the camera. But I'd have happily paid $100 for 4K over 1080p if it was hardware, and in truth software isn't that much different, it just feels different. Both camera and software will be garbage within a handful of years. I would suggest using the free software before committing to anything, just to be sure it does what you expect. I waited for "black friday" and got my Topaz in a sale - I expect they have those fairly frequently. Other solutions are probably available (but I tried the entirely free approach with Python libraries and it was too time consuming).

Windows Software... I used to use Premiere Pro but it's paid and Adobe went all subscription so I stopped. I only edit stuff a few times a year. Davinci Resolve is functionally superior these days and free. There's a learning curve, but if you just cut segments and stitch them together it's pretty much the same. There are other free/ advertising based tools (windows has I think "clip champ"), but they're all dumbed down or annoying. Cameras come with some software which will generate "insta" output pretty much without any additional software. The Insta thing will I think even pick the interesting bits of footage for you! If you can use FCP then those will look like kiddie toys, but they will work.

The limitation with Davinci free is that it doesn't use your graphics card for rendering - my workflow above deals with that.
That isn't important if you're not doing a lot of output, just make a cup of tea and let the CPU warm up a bit.

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@kitenski,
Might be worth trying your FCP licence key on a windows download.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@phil_w, very interesting

After all it is free

Thanks @phil_w, yes very true - as i mentioned above, I'd probably upgrade to a new insta if it could output in at least 2.7k after editing - so I shouldn't be daunted by pricey software. The current price of Topaz AI looks like $199, so maybe I'll keep an eye to see if they have any price reductions as $100 would be more palatable.

I'm also not sure if my laptop will be able to cope, so maybe I'll have a play with the free software and see how I get on - if it works as I imagine then it'll be worth every penny. Can i just throw in one of my already edited and completed videos, or does it have to be done one clip at a time?

@davidof, I'm no expert at any of this, but fwiw I currently use Magix Movie Studio Platinum. Only a £30 one off price and does the job for me. Probably much better ones out there though.

@Gored, I thought FCP was macos only?

Minimum System Requirements
macOS 11.5.1 or later

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Surprised no one has talked about the editing requirements/format for what platform you're actually going to publish your film on?

The ideal Instagram "portrait" aspect ratio is 4:5, and the ideal photo size is 1080px by 1350px.

Whilst YouTube recommend uploading the highest quality videos: 2160p (4K video quality) 3840p x 2160p.

So obviously that has an impact on your initial settings, and how you configure your subject in the aspect frame.

The GoPro Desktop editing software has a lot of good functionality to handle the above.

This is landscape 16x9

And then 4x5

And then your export settings can help with the file size should you need to, I keep them the same.

Then once you have exported your .mp4 I then do a final edit (if I want to add slow-mo tweak balances etc) and I use Adobe Premiere Elements

And that gives me the option of various project settings depending on my required output.

I can import other sizes and then use Autoreframe but then you might have to edit scale and position formats.

Another cheaper alternative to Adobe Premiere Elements is Wondershare Filmora - there might even be a Free Version.

Ironically my best performing InstaReel was filmed by my OH on her phone with me on the piste Laughing

though I then, in Premiere, cropped/scaled a portion of the clip in slow-mo.

And going back to the selfie stick and ski pole - I use three straps to bind the selfie stick at right angles to the ski-pole so I do not have to hold the stick, and it can be rock solid!

You can see the shadow of it in the images above, it's on my right-hand pole, fitting snuggly below my glove.

As ever it's a fine balance between the length of the pole and handling/shake vs terrain (forest it's way shorter) and snow-pack, more difficult on the whole for us in Europe having to deal with our more normal not-so-cold powder.

Though I have found that on hard piste corduroy, the constant vibrations can loosen it, and I find it when trying to carve getting down I'm way more conscious of the pole, but maybe will just take some getting use to like it did off-piste?

Help!!

360 Cameras

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