 Poster: A snowHead
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It would be unwise to flout the law of the land. The French make their own laws to support their own interests which is sometimes admirable but in this case I do not need to agree with them. They can be no argument that qualifications are needed for teaching and for guiding potentially dangerous off piste but for showing all but novices around blue & red pistes I think not. As said before the resorts & ESF have shot themselves in the foot by alienating themselves. They would have been wiser to define the limits for TO showing the layout of the pistes and in organising informal piste skiing groups, perhaps the leaders need to be able to demonstrate a good knowledge of the area and they are able to ski. Alternatively the area could provide their own orientation service of Mountain Friends as is common in North America.
Skiing as a group can greatly enhance the experience and encourage returning. Paying for an ESF guide for the week is not financially viable for most & their presence may dampen the experience. If you are staying in a chalet, new acquaintances often group together and there is usually someone who knows their way around. If you are staying in a Hotel (maybe solo) the Crystal leading service is an alternative to lone skiing. I personally met two buddies this way, they now have been great friends for several years. I am not sure how many punters will take their business elsewhere as there is some great skiing to be had in France but if you want piste and lunch better go to the Dolomites, if you want to apres go to Austria.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Lechbob wrote: |
| I am not sure how many punters will take their business elsewhere as there is some great skiing to be had in France but if you want piste and lunch better go to the Dolomites, if you want to apres go to Austria. |
When you consider that, on a week, you'll see a couple of coachloads from each TO turn up at a resort, and of the hundred or so guests, maybe half a dozen to a dozen will take advantage of the TO's hosting, I don't think it's going to be a killer for them.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| feef wrote: |
| maybe half a dozen to a dozen will take advantage of the TO's hosting, I don't think it's going to be a killer for them. |
It is a while since I took advantage of the hosting, the turn out was erratic, sometimes a handful sometimes over subscribed. It would be interesting to get some numbers from the tour operators to put things into perspective.
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| feef wrote: |
| maybe half a dozen to a dozen will take advantage of the TO's hosting, I don't think it's going to be a killer for them. |
It is a while since I took advantage of the hosting, the turn out was erratic, sometimes a handful sometimes over subscribed. It would be interesting to get some numbers from the tour operators to put things into perspective.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Wed 2-10-13 10:20; edited 2 times in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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When ever I've been with Mark Warner (4-5 times over the last decade or so) the hosting has always been extremely popular, i.e. 3 groups of 8-10 from each hotel
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One q I would ask is if I take a group of friends out and start instructing them an they buy me a beer to say thank you I am breaking French law?
What do the ski hosts do. Read a piste map and learn the runs. If they say someone can't show somebody around the piste without putting those people at risk then the logical conclusion must be they are saying the pistes are unsafe. in which case nobody should be on a piste without a guide.
I have not followed the story and do not know all the facts but that is simple logic.
Whatever the reason for the law the result is many people believe it is the French trying to feather their own nest. In the end it may well be counter productive. It does seem that Crystal have taken their business off ESF but is the law the reason. Have Crystal said this?
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| Mark1863 wrote: |
| I have not followed the story and do not know all the facts but that is simple logic. |
I'll think you'll find that logic and the French juducial system are frequently mutually exclusive
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Comedy Goldsmith, and no doubt the comments section will soon fill ...... 
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Unusually for the Mail...it seems to support the French stance. Always knew it was a fair, balanced and reasonable paper.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/kitten-block/ (for anyone who does not like DM)
Chalet staff and reps everywhere will be very happy not to have to host. Personally I think the esf are daft and cutting off their nose to spite their face. They should organise a host certificate every year. Spend a couple of days with the ski hosts, a little training, where you can and cant go and send the pupils to us for instruction. The esf director in my french resort many years ago was agreeable to me hosting blues and reds and them teaching. He gave m' staff some free lessons, we gave him lots of paying guests.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Another home-goal then since ESI fought and won a court case in France over ESF describing themselves as the "official" ski school. They may be the biggest, but they're just another independent ski school - they must be loving the accolade of the Mail declaring otherwise... 
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
that is simple logic
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It's not simple logic at all. You do not need to have any qualifications or licence in the UK to take a friend out in your boat, but if you do it as a "job", for members of the public who have bought a ticket, you and your boat have to comply with the relevant legislation and have the requisite (quite challenging) qualifications.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Not sure the marine example proves your point.
I would compare a ski host to a rep showing you round a beach resort or taking you on a sight seeing tour round a city. This is the limit of what the host does or should do.
The moment they step off the piste or start instructing I would agree with you. Being paid to take someone out to sea is a bit like going off piste and the person must be suitably qualified.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Mark1863, I'm not defending the substance of the French rules - but to claim that any distinction between an unregulated activity "between mates" and the same activity undertaken commercially is illogical doesn't really hold water. There are - obviously - substantive grounds for contesting the details of the French case.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
that is simple logic
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It's not simple logic at all. You do not need to have any qualifications or licence in the UK to take a friend out in your boat, but if you do it as a "job", for members of the public who have bought a ticket, you and your boat have to comply with the relevant legislation and have the requisite (quite challenging) qualifications. |
It doesnt even have to be a 'ticket' in boating. It will be deemed a commercial transaction if there is some form of 'compensation' eg an agreement to share fuel costs on a fishing trip - especially if the owner of the boat organises regular friends trips. There is some case law on this ( usually the MCA on safety grounds). Sounds familiar really --- and same applies to French sailors in UK waters .. Gosh! Horror!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Agenterre wrote: |
| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
that is simple logic
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It's not simple logic at all. You do not need to have any qualifications or licence in the UK to take a friend out in your boat, but if you do it as a "job", for members of the public who have bought a ticket, you and your boat have to comply with the relevant legislation and have the requisite (quite challenging) qualifications. |
It doesnt even have to be a 'ticket' in boating. It will be deemed a commercial transaction if there is some form of 'compensation' eg an agreement to share fuel costs on a fishing trip - especially if the owner of the boat organises regular friends trips. There is some case law on this ( usually the MCA on safety grounds). Sounds familiar really --- and same applies to French sailors in UK waters .. Gosh! Horror! |
Really? I can't say much about fishing trips but it's standard practice on sailing cruises to share fuel, food, berthing costs etc - do you have an example of where a skipper/owner has been sanctioned for this?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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agw, yes I've seen a couple over the years -- Ill have to go and dig them out when I've a spare moment. Not just an urban myth although I dont know any personally. IIRC there is an acceptable 'line' but cant remember exactly what. (It is something to do with the 'actual' cost and not advertising for people to come and join you for a 'fee' ( although not for profit necessarily)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| feef wrote: |
| Lechbob wrote: |
| I am not sure how many punters will take their business elsewhere as there is some great skiing to be had in France but if you want piste and lunch better go to the Dolomites, if you want to apres go to Austria. |
When you consider that, on a week, you'll see a couple of coachloads from each TO turn up at a resort, and of the hundred or so guests, maybe half a dozen to a dozen will take advantage of the TO's hosting, I don't think it's going to be a killer for them. |
Working for a T/0 in medium sized resorts with 4 or 5 guides available we often had to turn people away as we had maximum group sizes so there is a demand and feedback shows it is a popular service and its not just the Brits who do it, the dutch and the skandies do it too.
Reps I know mostly enjoyed doing, I know I did particularly on those bluebird days,
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| Mark1863 wrote: |
| I have not followed the story and do not know all the facts. |
Your next step should be to begin at page 1 of this thread rather than restarting the entire thing on page 45.
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*Double post day again at serverland eh?
Last edited by After all it is free  on Sat 5-10-13 10:20; edited 2 times in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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dsoutar, ever so slightly off topic but it is page 45, you're not into Rebus by any chance are you? I just finished Rankin's Mortal Causes book in which a rather unpleasant thug called Davey Soutar featured prominently 
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I don't seem to be able to find page 93 of this thread. It's in the latest edition of Private Eye so it should be available here.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
Your next step should be to begin at page 1 of this thread rather than restarting the entire thing on page 45
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a good point, actually - I should have said that last night instead of responding. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Lechbob wrote: |
| feef wrote: |
| maybe half a dozen to a dozen will take advantage of the TO's hosting, I don't think it's going to be a killer for them. |
It is a while since I took advantage of the hosting, the turn out was erratic, sometimes a handful sometimes over subscribed. It would be interesting to get some numbers from the tour operators to put things into perspective. |
I hosted for a season a few years ago, based in a chalet that could sleep 19. I hosted 4 days per week. (Chanting the company mantra-I skied with the guests, they did not ski with me, and I was not paid for it [ahem!])
In the whole season of 18 weeks in Les Menuires, I think there were 2 hosting days when I did not go out with guests-and they were when we were helping a staff shortage in the chalet next door. Sometimes I had maybe 3 or 4 guests, most of the time far more. It's such a good option somewhere like the 3V when you want to explore, have a good lunch and make the lifts home. We had a very good relationship with the local ESF-who even came over to our chalets at the start of the week to book people into lessons. So I think the ESF may well lose out...
However, as a lawyer, if there is a law that says you have to be qualified in order to be a paid "guide", then you're stuck with it!
I was a good host I think. Not the greatest skier, certainly not at the start of the season, but good on directions, avoiding queues, finding the right routes depending on weather, good speed for the guests abilities and great at lunch booking.
By contrast one of my colleague over the hill declared with great enjoyment how he scared the pants off guests on day one, and then had the week to himself!
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| Perty wrote: |
| By contrast one of my colleague over the hill declared with great enjoyment how he scared the pants off guests on day one, and then had the week to himself! |
I was also in Les Menuires last season - I think I bumped into this guy at a bar, he told me the exact same story.
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You know it makes sense.
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thedrewski, hi, suspect I skied with you last January (there were 3 of us, Jonathan, Richard and myself). A also I think I also know the guy you're referring to, the season I skied with him he wore a completely white outfit ... am I close?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| stevew wrote: |
| thedrewski, hi, suspect I skied with you last January (there were 3 of us, Jonathan, Richard and myself). A also I think I also know the guy you're referring to, the season I skied with him he wore a completely white outfit ... am I close? |
I must confess to being atrocious with names - and as I spent nearly 2 months hosting there were an awful lot of them! - so can't help you on whether I skied with you. But the lad I spoke to was, I think, with Crystal and more the freestyle kind of skier and fairly young, around 19/20.
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Poster: A snowHead
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No worries, the guy I was thinking about wasn't with Crystal
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| DoubleBombardino wrote: |
| dsoutar, ever so slightly off topic but it is page 45, you're not into Rebus by any chance are you? I just finished Rankin's Mortal Causes book in which a rather unpleasant thug called Davey Soutar featured prominently |
No - but I am intrigued and will have to check it out. BTW guess what the 'D' stands for....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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dsoutar, errr, let me hazard a guess...Daisy?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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[quote="pam w"]
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| But if I go out with a friend and say "I'll bring the lunch and a bottle of wine" I think that's different. The offer of a day's cruising for the cost of a picnic and bottle of wine wasn't open to anybody else. |
Hmmmm . . . If the mast's rockin' ... don't come knockin'?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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More trouble in Megeve, this is a photo of yesterday's local paper. It's in French but the gist is that the court have got fed up of constantly seeing the same accused, that when in Rome one should do as the Romans do, and the ski school director is now looking at four months in prison and a 10k€ (which he says he can't pay). I've now had a stab at translating it below:
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The director of a business offering Brits all-inclusive holidays to Megeve once again appeared before the criminal court of Bonneville to respond to the usual charges of ski instructing in disregard of the laws and regulations governing the profession.
The British citizen who has undertaken this activity since 1989 is proof of a rare pig-headedness. He has for a long time feigned to be ignorant of the necessary procedures such as making an advance declaration of his business activities, something done miraculously after ten years of proceedings just a few days before this hearing.
He employs instructors who don't have the necessary qualifications, and doesn't respect community [EU] policy on seconded foreign workers. He has already been sentenced four times, including last year. That judgement was confirmed, in part, by the Court of Appeal of Chambery. He had been solemnly warned last year that checks would be carried out during the forthcoming season. Two took place the 27 Feb and the 2 April 2013, allowing it to be proven without doubt that he was still using his staff to supervise groups of British skiers, one even filming the skiers for evening debriefings.
After having ironically expressed his joy at seeing this British subject so regularly, the prosecutor quickly changed his tone. "As every year at the same time, he appears in exactly the same situation. He deliberately persists in ignoring French law. He doesn't understand - or doesn't want to understand - what we're asking of him. This die-hard wants to set up a British Empire in Megeve!" deplored the prosecutor before adding, "He has to resign himself to respecting our laws. When in Rome, do as the Romans do!"
This time it was the last straw and the prosecutor asked for a four month mandatory jail term and a 10,000€ fine. That amount, as with the damages sought by two groups of ski instructors, ought to be difficult to recoup as the accused, who is unable to provide his business accounts, claims to have no income - no doubt as a result of the crisis. Judgement is reserved until 2pm, the 14 November.
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Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sat 2-11-13 12:44; edited 2 times in total
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We shall see what the 14th of November appeal brings, perhaps the headlines will be Brit wins landmark victory against French protectionism..
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no photo 
can you put it up, i've looked in the dauphine but cant find the story...
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oh...its there now! sorry 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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It's in Le Messager, weird little local thing, just heard their ad on the radio and saw it in the supermarket.
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Having just read the article, (and it is available on PDF, http://www.lemessager.fr/Actualite/Faucigny/ then go to the PDF area on the right in blue for €1); it is quite clear that this concerns Simon Butler and Simon Butler Skiing Ltd.
The main text is a precis of the facts of the case as laid out by the prosecution (procureur), followed by 2 direct quotes. There is no appeal yet since the verdict is due on November 14th at 14.00hrs.
There seems to be no substantial alteration of material facts in the article but of course since it is journalism, there is no reporting of what the defense have said. Simon was expecting this result, so is it any surprise that his company (presumably the French subsidiary) has no income? This kind of thing happens in the UK too before a trial. It would really surprise me if he does not carry on business more or less as usual and I would be even more surprised if clients money would not be safe.
That said, it is entirely possible he will get at least a small prison sentence for persistently flouting French law. It is not the local ski schools who are persisting with this action but the French ministry of sport, the article is quite correct in saying this has now been going on for over 10 years.
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FAQ
