 Poster: A snowHead
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| Bikeandsnow wrote: |
Couldn't this product be used on dogs?
i.e. ones used in search & rescue that could be buried in a secondary avalanche.
A dog would have no use for the search function.
Somebody needs to tell the inventor before he tops himself. |
Not really if there's a chance of a multiple species burial. You'd feel a bit silly digging the dog up first while your mate died.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sat 23-03-13 21:58; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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davidof, from what under a new name, said above and that no-one has so far disagreed with which, knowing this place, I would have expected to have happened had it been incorrect  .
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I suggested that about a page ago and there were a number of sensible comments, a lot to do with the dog not being very good at turning it off in an avalanche scenario. (No thumbs is the problem...) A dog would benefit from the sort that switch back to transmit if they are motionless for too long while in search function.
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Megamum, under a new name didn't write 'piste patrol'.  You would expect 'piste patrol' to carry the holy trinity and ski in pairs while checking out iffy slopes before they are opened to the public.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Sat 23-03-13 21:43; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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under a new name, wrote:
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Things may have changed and I wasn't paying attention but as far as I am aware, pisteurs are not regularly or routinely wearing transceivers nor carrying probes and shovels.
There's no need.
Which, I think, rather informs much of the argument around this product.
P.s. Neither are ski instructors, lift operators, etc.
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Is the word' pisteurs' not just French for 'piste patrol' - if not then do they or do they not carry avi gear as standard?
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moffatross, you edited before I got there
How quickly would piste patrol be on the scene in the case of an on-piste avalanche then? Do they patrol pistes routinely during the day?
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Lizzard, Sorry, thought you were a bloke. 
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CH2O, they sell transmit only beacons under the counter in Snells, but don't tell Haggis ffs.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
You would expect 'piste patrol' to carry the holy trinity and ski in pairs while checking out iffy slopes before they are opened to the public.
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Of course I would expect them to carry the holy trinity whilst doing the bit in bold, but carrying the stuff at that time isn't going to help kid A & B when they are skiing on a sunny piste at 2pm and the snow above them decides to warm and fall on them.
What I'm trying to get to grips with is - could someone buying a send only beacon for the purpose of on-piste rescue realistically rely on other people on piste to provide the partner device quickly enough at the scene of a slide which could search and the shovel and probe to dig? Also, would a slide onto a piste be automatically swept by a transceiver on receive when rescue parties arrived or would they assume that there was a low likelihood of beacons being carried on-piste and concentrate on alternative methods of locating possible survivors?
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Sat 23-03-13 22:18; edited 1 time in total
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Megamum, "pisteur" (or "pisteur-secouriste") is the general French term for "ski patroller". They will all carry a transceiver at all times, as a minimum - usually full avalanche kit.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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stevomcd, Excellent, that is kind of what I expected to hear, I was surprised to be given the other response, but since no-one contradicted it at the time..............................
So it might be reasonable to assume that Kid A & B's parents could rely on someone turning up within minutes of a slide on-piste with enough gear to be useful if their kid had ended up in the middle of a heap of snow?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| jbob wrote: |
| CH2O, they sell transmit only beacons under the counter in Snells, but don't tell Haggis ffs. |
I understood they sold them under the counter for the very reason that they are only to be sold as training aids and they aren't publicly promoted for the very reason the CSS/Snowbe/WhateverBSbrandinghecomesupwithnext shouldn't be.
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Megamum, Not sure that's the case. There's a big difference between pisteurs and lifties!
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You know it makes sense.
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Yes, in the (highly unlikely) event of an on-piste avalanche, you could reasonably expect the first ski patrollers to turn up within a few minutes.
Those few minutes are very, very precious though. Actually, I can't believe I'm even discussing this. On-piste avalanches are not something that most skiers should concern themselves with.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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stevomcd, I can see why you say that
However, rare though they apparently are, this is what we are led to believe the Snowbe is marketed for (though initially I think they intended for more). Carrying a sender is no use whatsoever, unless there is someone about that can search for it. As I said above, I try to look at all sorts of aspects before arriving at a decision. Hence why I wanted to explore where that kit might be in relation to an on-piste avalanche scenario, and whether it would be a priority to search with a transceiver even though the chance of someone carrying the devices on-piste is less likely than in an off-piste scenario. I still think those first few minutes could make the difference though, and it is a little selfish to rely on others to provide the kit someone or their family might need just because someone is too much of a tightwad to spring for it themselves.
In terms of an on-site avalanche being a rare event though, in 10 weeks skiing I've seen two on-piste runs closed due to avalanche falls - one within minutes of a piste opening, and one load of moving snow that just reached the margins of a piste during skiing time. Maybe I've just been unlucky.
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Poster: A snowHead
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stevomcd, errr,
Call me old fashioned, but, unless probe and shovel technology has improved leaps and bounds since this afternoon, and ski patroller, secouriste, pisteur would have to have a back pack on to carry said probe and shovel?
And they certainly weren't wearing them today...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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under a new name, i don't know where you ride, but our guys have transceivers at ALL times. Other kit in their resort-issued ABS packs most of the time too. Seriously, where do you ride that pisteurs aren't equipped so that I know never to go there?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
Sorry, thought you were a bloke.
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That makes a difference? 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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stevomcd, under a new name, Haven't done an extensive study but have noticed recently a) the pisteur I spoke to a a month or so ago in his hut sans jacket was beeping. (I imagine it's just part of getting dressed for them these days). b) a guy re-seating fencing on-piste during that long period of avy risk 1/2 earlier this month, definitely no backpack. I'm sure they have the skills to know when and for what (physical) tasks there's no need to lug that thing around. Should he have come across an injury whilst out and about his fully equipped colleague would have been there within minutes.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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shep, well noticed (the beep I mean).
stevomcd, I don't have a habit of asking pisteurs what they're wearing under their jackets (although one recently asked me what I was wearing under my kilt) so I can't be sure about the beep.
But as Shep says, they most certainly do not always carry backpacks. Thus no shovels nor probes.
As to where? This season at least in PDS, Grand Massif, Chamonix, Davos, Mürren... I was going to include Monterosa but in Italy part of the pisteur's job is covered by the Police and I can't recall if they generally carry packs or not, and no idea what's in them.
Does it suprise me that your guys do? No, not really. Your local terrain being what it is. They may even be "carrying" so they can nip off for a few freshies at break.
Does it surprise me that the Cham guys don't seem to? No, not really. You don't need to on piste.
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So it seems the difference is regional. It all feeds into the wisdom of whether you could justifiably sell a send only device for on-piste use and rely on others to have sufficient to rescue you if the very rare on-piste avi were to happen and trap you were to happen. It seems to me that there are so many variables that you probably need to be self sufficient with a receiver in the party and then you bank on that receiver not ending up in that rare avi. It certainly seems that if you decide to carry a device for the purpose of avi protection on or off-piste skiing it needs to do both and you also need to carry the shovel and probe. Nothing else seems to add up and it seems that the snowbe device is just being sold on a scaremongering basis to people that don't know better, or have not thought the thing through, or have as much info available as I have found. I am not sure that is the best premise to market a 'safety product' on.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Sun 24-03-13 13:00; edited 1 time in total
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Megamum, no, I don't think there's really any regional differences. I think you are over complicating whether pisteurs carry or not. They will if circumstances demand it e.g. Skiing off piste, running avvy control, opening pistes, etc. They won't necessarily when not necessary e.g. Fixing fences at chairlift queues.
Also, some stations have better arrangements with kit suppliers
the remainder of your conclusions hold, I think.
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| Megamum wrote: |
stevomcd, Excellent, that is kind of what I expected to hear, I was surprised to be given the other response, but since no-one contradicted it at the time..............................
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Sorry we're not all 24/7 on snowheads, even geeks like me  . Maybe people located in the snowy Sussex uplands have more time to post.
There is a H&S issue. In any resort where there is a risk of avalanche and patrollers may be expected to intervene at any moment their employers would have to issue them with transceivers and also airbags and expect that they wear them "at all times and everywhere" (quoting the Tignes piste patrol) in a simlar way that construction workers wear hard hats. There is jurisprudence concerning this.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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davidof, but if there's no expectation of intervention and no rosk of avalanche they likely won't be.
And so this is not a supporting argument for transmit only beacons...
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| under a new name wrote: |
davidof, but if there's no expectation of intervention and no rosk of avalanche they likely won't be.
And so this is not a supporting argument for transmit only beacons... |
The man said: "at all times and everywhere" (quoting the Tignes piste patrol)"
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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under a new name, fair enough - I never argued that they're carrying packs at ALL times, just most of the time.
The guys out and about checking fences, etc. are not the guys on emergency response duty. Those guys are stationed at the top of the upper lifts so that if they get a call, they can ski DOWN to where they need to be very quickly. Those guys will definitely be fully-equipped.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I've no idea when it comes to individual resorts but I assume pisteurs are always wearing beeps. I do observe they don't always carry packs e.g when taking a piste cruise lap just to see if eveything's ok or when on pad fixiing duty. I do assume that their rescue kit is in their hut so it wouldn't be a stretch for a colleague to bring it down to them or fetch it themselves if called upon. There are many days when it would absolutely amazing for anything to happen anywhere near the piste.
As for piste avalanches they are very rare when you discount those that occur during control work or wet spring slides. On the latter I've seen idiots bypassing a recently erected piste ferme sign on the grounds that "it was ok 30 minutes ago" despite ample evidence of wet slides occuring on a warm day. These are presumably the same type of people this device is being marketed to. A bit of brain power and observation would keep their kids far safer than any passive device.
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| stevomcd wrote: |
under a new name, fair enough - I never argued that they're carrying packs at ALL times, just most of the time.
The guys out and about checking fences, etc. are not the guys on emergency response duty. Those guys are stationed at the top of the upper lifts so that if they get a call, they can ski DOWN to where they need to be very quickly. Those guys will definitely be fully-equipped. |
Exactly.
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You know it makes sense.
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Hi, James Aubrey-Robson at Cambridge Ski Safety here.
Thanks for your comments, hopefully we can be become part of this debate and answer any questions you have.
When I first developed this product, I made the mistake of being unclear about who it is appropriate for. Thanks to the online skiing community, within days of the initial launch I was made aware of this and started to rectify the issue: this is clearly and solely an on-piste only emitter. I also decided to change the name to Cambridge Ski Safety because the word ‘Beacon’ in ‘Snow-Be’ was inappropriate.
The argument is that the On-Piste Emitter could be misused and taken off-piste as an alternative to a transceiver. This is why we have clear labelling on the product that says ‘On-Piste emitter’ and ‘This emitter has no search function and is intended for on-piste use only.’ There is a responsibility to ensure that we inform people in the right way so that they use our product correctly and we take that seriously.
When an avalanche occurs on-piste, the rescue services would expect to be on the site within 2 to 3 minutes. They first carry out a visual search, then use a transceiver to search for the international avalanche distress signal, 457kHz. As we know, emitting this signal will significantly improve your chances of being found within the 15 minutes survival window.
Thanks to the dedicated prevention work of resort professionals, on-piste avalanches are rare. But they still happen.
Skiers are well informed, and capable of forming an opinion about the avalanche danger when skiing on-piste, for themselves and their children. The On-Piste Emitter was developed for one reason – to potentially save lives of children skiing on-piste only. We have positive feed-back from ski instructors, mountain guides, ski patrollers and avalanche specialists.
A significant part of the skiing community only skis on-piste, is risk averse and respects the rules. The fact that they do not carry a transceiver, probe and shovel doesn't make them irresponsible or selfish. They rely on the resort Rescue Services to find them on-piste and they have the right to help the rescue services locate them quickly by emitting on 457kHz.
We hope this initially helps to clarify some of the facts about the On-Piste Emitter.
James
Cambridge Ski Safety is a British Company, our product, the On-Piste Emitter is designed and built to comply with the application of Article 3(3)(e) of the EC Directive 1995/5 : it therefore transmits a signal at 457mHz, can be submersed in snow and survive in an avalanche.
The On-Piste Emitter is entirely manufactured in Cambridge to the highest standards in electronic engineering with strict quality control procedures. If you would like to visit us, please get in touch, we’d be pleased to show you the precision and quality of our manufacturing process.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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cambridgeski, could this be modified to transmit at 456 kHz?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Bikeandsnow, that would require a different process and the fact it's tuned to 457khz is to firstly comply with regulations and also of course to match the frequencies of devices that do have a search function. We are not attempting to replace a transceiver device here or create an alternative to one. The On-Piste Emitter relies on rescue services that carry a device with a search function. Hope that helps...just curious why you ask this question? Thanks
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I might buy one of these.
I have a proper beacon (PIEPS DPS), shovel and probe that I carry with me every time I ski, and I learned to use them during a three day AIARE course. And I would never carry a transmit only beacon on the mountain and would refuse to ski with anyone who does.
So why would I buy one? Where I live, I have nobody to do beacon practice with. This would be an inexpensive way for me to practice searching with my beacon. I ask a buddy (any buddy, doesn't need to be someone who has avi gear or evan any clue what it is) to hide this device somewhere. I search for it. Practice accomplished.
Having said that, the explanation above from cambridgeski is scaremogering, irresponsible BS.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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cambridgeski, FWIW I think you do your company no harm at all by appearing on this thread. I have my own doubts about the product as you will have seen, but appearing here is far better than sticking your head in the sand IMO.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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cambridgeski, Thanks for coming here.
What is your personal experience in avalanche training and who in the professional avalanche community have you consulted in devising and marketing this product? You'd be more convincing if some credible people, not being paid, would stand for your product with logical support.
What are the statistics for (open) on piste avalanches globally which leave the victim totally buried?
What measures are you taking to ensure this isn't sold or misappropriated to be used as an off piste transmitter beyond a written warning?
I do think you are twisting the truth from your original ambition for the product IIRC it wasn't designed to be an on-piste emitter for children only - it was designed for affordable off-piste safety. Did you or did you not promise subsequently to make the product available for training purposes only?
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Sun 24-03-13 21:48; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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ami in berlin, thanks for the comment. We do not want to scaremonger anyone and to be clear, I don't think this device is suitable for you as I imagine you ski off-piste and you're an adult. We have never tried to overstate the dangers of skiing on-piste and merely say that avalanches on-piste can and do happen. We know they are 'rare', but they still happen. The emitter is designed purely for skiing on-piste and for children who ski on-piste. People are aware of the risks whatever they might be and they can make decisions based on that for them or their children. There is no replacement for a transceiver, shovel and probe when skiing off-piste and we are absolutely clear about that.
Megamum, thanks for your comment.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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cambridgeski, lots of people feel inclined to mitigate against adverse events that have very low absolute risk levels especially if it's easy and cheap to do so. Everyone has their own threshold for this. I try not to do it but am sure there're some things I could be accused of doing it for. Personally I think your product (as an on-piste beacon) falls into this category, but don't see this as a reason why people who feel sufficiently informed but still inclined to do so shouldn't be able to buy it, any more than I see people who think they need transceivers but actually don't (because the degree to which they go "off piste" is too limited to really need to worry about avalanches) as a reason why they shouldn't be able to buy those. The real problem is indeed that of people buying the device either because of ignorance, misinformation or misundertanding, or simply out of parsimonious or cynical selfishness, and using it where having a transceiver is genuinely critical. I don't personally think that withdrawal from the market should be demanded or mandated but it is obviously a simple solution to the problem of potential misuse of the device.
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cambridgeski, I accept that there are rare occasions when there is a risk of in-bounds/on-piste avalanches. On those rare occasions anyone skiing that terrain should carry proper avalanche safety equipment (including a beacon that both transmits and receives a signal) and should do so in a group in which all members are carrying said equipment and are able to use it properly.
A family of four in which both parents are buried in an avalanche while two children are only equiped with "On-Piste Emitters" as you call them is likely to produce two orphans.
Taking somebody (regardless of age) into avalanche terrain (and if there is a risk of avalanche, you are in avalanche terrain irrespective if whether it is on or off piste) who is unable to perform a search and rescue is irresponsible and potentially fatal.
If those two children are unable to perform a search and rescue, they should not be skiing in avalanche terrain in the first place.
Your stated utility of this product is in an event that is exceedingly rare (although as I am sure you know one that is perceived to be far greater than it is by your ill-informed targeted customers). However more worrying is that even in that excedingly rare event, your product will actually aggravate the danger to your customers rather than mitigate it.
That is why I described your explanation as Scaremongering and Irresponsible. Scaremongering because it plays on the irrational fears of the under-informed for sales and Irresponsible because it is a tool that can cause more harm than good by encouraging those under-informed customers to ski in conditions they should avoid.
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Thanks Fat Bob for your questions,
I’m a recreational skier who skis on-piste and usually with my children, that’s it.
I understand your point about the people in the avalanche community being credible and supporting the product. We have spoken to many of them, so far we have not asked any of them to come forward to endorse the emitter publically or offered them any money. The feedback we have received has been positive in the sense that essentially the emitter is a valid device providing it’s clear what it should be used for. We do require more public support now and all I can say is that we really have spoken to many people and organisations but to start naming them at this stage when they have not made an agreement to endorse the emitter would be wrong. I’m side stepping your question in a way, but it is probably now the most valid and important point for us to work on right now, so it’s a fair point.
Statistics for on-piste avalanches are hard to get hold of….not because they don’t happen but because they are not always recorded. Of course, off-piste burials are by far the majority of recorded incidents and we have never tried to say that on-piste avalanche burials compare in anyway. Last winter in Switzerland a young child died when an avalanche crossed the open slope and a man died in Austria on an open piste. We are not trying to scaremonger by saying that on-piste avalanche injuries or fatalities are a common everyday occurrence – people can make informed decisions about this.
We want to be absolutely clear about what this product is intended for. The labelling is one thing, but retailers should also fully understand what they are selling. Ultimately if children are used to wearing this device when skiing on-piste and understand why they have it, as they graduate to off-piste skiing they will require a transceiver, probe and shovel. In that sense as a company we must provide an education into mountain safety that goes beyond this on-piste emitter and we would like to do that, obviously with suitable professionals.
Your final question – it was never designed to be used for affordable off-piste safety! At the time last year when we went back to the drawing board and started to converse with industry professionals, we stated that the device was being sold as a training tool only. When we were satisfied with the discussions we had with industry professionals including at the London Ski Show in October, we then re-branded as Cambridge Ski Safety and ensured all the marketing information provided was very clear about its use and who and where it was suitable for.
I’ve answered your questions as best as possible and will come back with anything else to add when I have it. One thing I’d like to add….we really need to separate the emitter from anything to do with off-piste skiing. Because many people within the skiing community ski off-piste and use safety equipment they immediately try and compare this with a transceiver. We don’t see it that way at all, this is nothing to do with skiing off-piste.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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cambridgeski, Those are reasonable answers but I still think you are selling to a minutely small risk. IIRC the kid who was buried in CH was in a private lesson with an instructor and arguably the slope shouldn't have been open or an adult taking children there. Even if we give that one plus the Swedish skier that's 2 incidents across millions of skier days over 2 seasons.
The problem as I see it with your product is not what you are expressly selling it for, although I believe this to be an absolutely insignificant risk, and in order to have a sales message you need to scaremonger. IMO selling neon bibs would save just as many kids' lives as it'll make them a tiny bit more visible on the slope.
The real problem is but what it will end up being used for despite what warnings you attach to it. To use an extreme example what if I started selling automatic assault rifles with ammuninition but put prominent warnings that they were only for self defence in the event of a zombie apocalypse? Unlikely event but some people might think it sufficiently likely to provide for. Far more might say - this is a neat loophole around existing gun controls, I'll have some of that.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Sun 24-03-13 22:39; edited 2 times in total
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cambridgeski, Do you have any figures relating to how many you sold prior to the rebranding and how many have been sold since?
So you ski recreationally with your own kids. Would you also agree that the device would be hopeless unless a receiver was immediately available - with every minute being vital in a burial situation, how do you feel about needing to potentially wait several minutes for someone to arrive with a receiver if your own children were buried. Or do you carry a receiving transceiver when your children wear their transmitting devices? How do you think your children would feel if you were buried carrying the receiving device (assuming you wear one) if they could do nothing towards searching for you in the first few minutes? I don't know how old they are, but if only carried emitters they couldn't even shout that they had a search tool if someone knew how to use one.
I'd also be interested to know why you didn't build in the search capability - how much would including the functionality have added to the cost of the device?
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FAQ
