 Poster: A snowHead
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Dave Burt, But that's never been my position. It's a big thread! I have said repeatedly that teaching ability as well as skill/fitness/speed etc is important. Check out my earliest posts.
With reference to the lifesaver analogy, it is not entirely misplaced, if you consider the environment in which both have to work....
It's a high bar that's being set for the entrance requirements - teaching as well as skiing skills are vital, along with fitness. But there are more than enough people capable of reaching it - so why lower standards for the benefit of those who can't?
The repercussions in terms of pay (sorry DG) would be considerable, depending on the extent to which the free market was allowed to dominate the selection process in a deregulated profession.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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masopa,
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We're talking about less capable skiers as instructors: those who maybe can't pass the speed test, or haven't made it all the way to BASI 1. These instructors would almost certainly prefer to take out beginners - something where speed is certainly not an issue, and the dangers of a nusery slope are hardly akin to triple bypass surgery, are they? |
Dave Burt,
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The best ESF instructor I have ever had (which is not saying a great deal, admittedly) was a fat, old bloke in Les Arcs. |
The current system is not perfect. I certainly would agree with that. But it does allow a combination of relatively inexperienced youngsters to work as trainees for the time it takes to become fully qualified, alongside the older highly experienced instructors who are no longer up to the physicals demands of taking out advanced skiers/groups.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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But you're ruling out highly experienced (say) older skiers, who might make excellent teachers of those groups, taking an instructors' course?
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I've just completed a week long instruction from a BASI 1 instructor with the aim of assessing the reality of obtaining a BASI qualification. The reality is that I could expect to gain a BASI 3 qualification if I was to apply now, and that BASI 2 would be achievable with a concentration of effort on my behalf.
The liklihood of getting BASI 1 and achieving the required GS standard is unlikely to put it mildly, especially given that I am at the ripe old age of 40! Apart from the satisfaction of gaining skiing qualifications, it would appear from much of the above that the chances of teaching skiing, especially in France is remote in the extreme.
This is a slight departure, but is there much point in putting in the effort?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Dave Burt,
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| I really would not care if my instructor couldn't do the gates in half the required time, as long as s/he can communicate, explain, demonstrate etc. with enthusiasm and clarity. Someone who can ski like a champion but can only say "copy me" is no teacher. |
I agree. As long as the reason for only being able to ski the gates in half the time is health/fitness/injury related, and not down to limited technique. The near retirement instructors who once possessed this ability should be able to demonstrate the techniques involved adequately. I would have serious doubts though about the skills of those who despite being fit can't ski a fast GS. After all they are supposed to be able to demonstrate the techniques involved in fast controlled carving - and that's a large part of what skiing a GS course involves...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Mark. BASI 3 is as far as I got and as far as I go. I took the BASI 2 training in 1977 but it was rushed and I didn't make the grade.
Is it worth the effort (1)? You can teach in Andorra or for big firms like Interski who run ski schools in the Val D'Aosta, though the current cost of qualifying will be hard to recoup.
Is it worth the effort (2)? For your personal ski ability and understanding of technique, a million times Yes. It gives you a lifetime investment and you never look back.
What is the current cost, BTW?
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David Goldsmith,
There will be over time an increasing number of these older skiers who once went through the selection process and achieved the current benchmark. The system will appear less discriminatory as the years go by - we will know what they were once capable of. But if the bar is lowered now for the sake of the few that have been caught in the transition period then I think that we would probably be doing the profession a disservice in the longer term.
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David Goldsmith, your point 2 I'm sure is reason enough.
If one was to take a gap year and do a 10 week start to finish course, the cost is around £5,000. I'll check on the 1 week course costs, but I recall a figure of around £450.
From what I gather from the BASI instructor last week, it is possible to attach oneself to ESF as a stagier (poss incorrect spelling) having gained a BASI 2 level. They would then take one on to instructor level, but possibly at novice/intermediate only. That was my understanding at any rate.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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This excellent discussion just goes on and on...
1. There seems to be a big difference of opinion on just how difficult the slalom test is. PG suggests it is within the grasp of any reasonably fit good skier, while Mark Hunter suggests it is unattainable. Hmmm. 
2. Masopa suggested ("like having you car serviced") it should be permitted to use cheaper less trained instructors. The problem with this Masopa is making sure these 2nd class instructors don't claim to be 1st class.
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| Jonpim wrote: |
This excellent discussion just goes on and on...
1. There seems to be a big difference of opinion on just how difficult the slalom test is. PG suggests it is within the grasp of any reasonably fit good skier, while Mark Hunter suggests it is unattainable. Hmmm.
2. Masopa suggested ("like having you car serviced") it should be permitted to use cheaper less trained instructors. The problem with this Masopa is making sure these 2nd class instructors don't claim to be 1st class. |
That's not quite true Jonpim. I felt that at 40, achieving the required level is realistically beyond the level of fitness that I could attain, especially given the lack of background/experience that exists. It is frustrating though to perhaps be technically proficient and to be good at coaching, but to be denied the possibility to pass on one's enthusiasm and talent to new generations of skiers....
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Jonpim, Yes - a big thanks to DG for getting this topic going!
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| PG suggests it is within the grasp of any reasonably fit good skier |
Quick qualification here - I reckon the GS (no longer a slalom) test is..... "within the reach of any fit, very good skier.... "
But Mark Hunter, there's Litvanoff a 'veteran' who won the French Masters Championship GS yesterday in 1'10"83 who's 61 (and still on a remarkable 128 FFS points), with another vet aged 62 just behind him, putting all the 'masters' (aged 30 and over) to shame! Plenty of guys born in the 1920s, some who'd hit 80, who put in some remarkable times too!
(See: http://www.ffsresults.com/resultats/resAlpin.php?CodeEpreuve=4147 )
Plenty of hope for you yet!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Mark Hunter wrote: |
It is possible to attach oneself to ESF as a stagier (poss incorrect spelling) having gained a BASI 2 level. They would then take one on to instructor level, but possibly at novice/intermediate only. That was my understanding at any rate. |
So why can't Mr Butler do this?
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I think because he doesn't run a ski school - but a travel business that offers some tuition on the side...
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You know it makes sense.
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| sherman-maeir wrote: |
| Mark Hunter wrote: |
It is possible to attach oneself to ESF as a stagier (poss incorrect spelling) having gained a BASI 2 level. They would then take one on to instructor level, but possibly at novice/intermediate only. That was my understanding at any rate. |
So why can't Mr Butler do this? |
It's like offering degrees, you've got to be acredited, you need Centre de Formation status which obviously ESF have. No idea exactly how that works in detail. It's not limited to ESF as far as I know.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| ise wrote: |
| sherman-maeir wrote: |
| Mark Hunter wrote: |
It is possible to attach oneself to ESF as a stagier (poss incorrect spelling) having gained a BASI 2 level. They would then take one on to instructor level, but possibly at novice/intermediate only. That was my understanding at any rate. |
So why can't Mr Butler do this? |
It's like offering degrees, you've got to be acredited, you need Centre de Formation status which obviously ESF have. No idea exactly how that works in detail. It's not limited to ESF as far as I know. |
That doesn't seem unreasonable does it, they are supposed to be stagieres after all. Evolution 2 has this status and employ Basi National Ski Teachers.
So, basically, what people have said in this thread is pretty much true and their facts are right? Phew, glad we cleared that up.
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Poster: A snowHead
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David Goldsmith,
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| Fitness of instructor does not "protect the consumer". If we're talking about protection from injury or death, then a mature experienced understanding of pistes, their suitability for different groups, an understanding of stretching and warming up (different to fitness), and an understanding of not pushing people beyond their confidence and ability, are far more important factors. |
I agree. Fitness is only a part of the package. All of the abovementioned teaching skills should be taught at entrance level. But fitness has its role too, and when combined with technique means the instructor can if necessary carve, at speed, with skill and correct technique, in virtually all conditions..... and looking backwards to check on his pupil now and again!
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| I'd agree that an instructor needs to "protect the consumer" from their own lack of fitness (and confidence, strength and lack of experience) but that's down to an instructor's sensitivity. NOT his fitness. |
Yes - all part of the package. It's just that I don't see the need to pick and choose those parts of the package that suit, when there are plenty of sensitive, understanding, experienced, fit and fast instructors out there.... and those who do have equivalence and are no longer as fit as they once were are plentiful enough for the more basic stuff.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Mark Hunter, Hmmm. . . . As you know I have considerable years on you yet I plan to either continue with my BASI courses (but the prices are buttock clenching) or to join the ESF programme. Either way the greatest investment is time on the hill! This is something I’ve harped on about before. Age is of no relevance to your ability to ski well or fast.
Your limitations are your willingness to accept the idea that as you get older your physical capabilities deteriorate at a marked and significant rate. In reality, an ‘average’ individual (disease not withstanding) is quite capable of maintaining 90% of muscle strength and joint flexibility up to the age of 85 and with modern surgical, palliative and medicinal treatments beyond that!
It’s all down to how you live your life, your attitude to your (invariably lazy) peers and the priorities that you place within it. I will say that to maintain or gain that level of fitness in late middle age does require the same level of emotional selfishness that teenagers exhibit, but I’d like to think that it’s possible to strike a balance. If the GS gates are out in April I’ll give it a go if for no more than the opportunity and a personal challenge.
But back to the point. It’s snowtime that determines your skiing ability and it’s that time when you learn to analyse your technique and apply the learning that’s essential to becoming an effective teacher (and that’s before you even start on effective communication skills). I’m perhaps lucky in that my familial responsibilities are now negligible and I’m by default having to reassess my career path so I may have the time and opportunity to take my snowsport to a level that will allow me to justify the trust that a paying punter gives me when pressing his Euros into my hand.
I have to side with PG; Over the years I’ve gained a number of professional qualifications (in stupidly diverse fields) and I know that to transfer some of these to other countries I need to either sit an exam and prove equivalency or to take a course and have my skills assessed before receiving a licence to work. I’ve always tried to make sure my qualifications are of an international standard, but that’s never a given.
The only issue here is the inability (and the xenophobic attitudes) of the World’s ski teaching authorities to truly get their act together and establish a curriculum that leaves no room for doubt. The current agreement is still causing ferment.
Again it’s our sense of ‘barrier’ rather than ‘opportunity’ that defines this argument and it is facile!
The subject heading on this thread is being lost (jeez I can’t believe I’m complaining about wandering off topic) but as far as I can tell, the court adjudicated on a straightforward breach of French law and unless the participants outline the basis of their appeal then further ramblings are moot.
Sorry PG, for not being my more normal ‘concise’ self
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Masque, must be catching! Where are you heading in April?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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La Rosiere April 18, but 'Mom' is goin into Adenbrooks for some fairly radical surgury on the 12th. so things are a bit 'up in the air 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Do all non-French ski instructors have to take the test or is it just English? (i.e. Do the Austrians, Italians and Swiss have to take it?)
What percentage of current French ski instructors who passed the test way back would now fail? If the speed test is so important then should there be a re-test for all these older French instructors?
Maybe it was just bad luck but I hired a French ski-instructor for an off-piste lesson / guide and he was absolutely hopeless (my skiing was also cr@p but he did nothing to help me improve it). Very strong French accent on limited English made him hard to understand. Being able to communicate properly is far more important than how fast a particular ski instructor can ski, more so at begineer level. He even took us on sun bleached southfacing slopes with nothing but "follow me".
Other ski countries (Austria, Italy and Switzerland) don't seem to be as uptight as the French when accepting British ski instructors. And if this racing test is so important and makes so much difference why are Austrians winning so many more medals then the French?
The first Frenchman on this list is way down at number 20 (behind Austria, USA, Finland, Norway, Switzerland & Italy) now why is that?
http://www.fis-ski.com/cupstandings/index.php
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DB,
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Do all non-French ski instructors have to take the test or is it just English? (i.e. Do the Austrians, Italians and Swiss have to take it?)
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All members of the 31 nation-strong ISIA have agreed on identical standards since 2001.
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| What percentage of current French ski instructors who passed the test way back would now fail? |
A big percentage I should think, as age/health/fitness problems creep up on you. Same as for any other nationality, everyone's in the same situation.
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| If the speed test is so important then should there be a re-test for all these older French instructors? |
That would be unrealistic. They take on a different role as the years go by, more adapted to their fitness and speed. As indeed do instructors of other nationalities.
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| Other ski countries (Austria, Italy and Switzerland) don't seem to be as uptight as the French when accepting British ski instructors. |
Nonsense. There's absolutely no problem with accepting British ski instructors in France, whether this be at a British-run school or elsewhere - as long as they meet the internationally laid-down standards.
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| And if this racing test is so important and makes so much difference why are Austrians winning so many more medals then the French? |
The Austrians have the same standards for instructors as the French. The race training situation for the national teams is an entirely different subject.
(Short memory! Two years ago France had the reigning world cup GS champion in Covilli, Montillet and Vidal Olympic gold medallists, and quite a few others right up there in the top ten. That said, the Austrians are without a doubt the best there is at the moment.)
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| The first Frenchman on this list is way down at number 20 (behind Austria, USA, Finland, Norway, Switzerland & Italy) now why is that? |
Presumably because some are injured, others aren't having their best year, and the competition is simply better at the moment? That's the overall championship across all the disciplines, by the way. Plenty of well-placed French skiers in the individual disciplines.
Absolutely none of this has anything whatsoever to do with the topic under discussion.
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Masque, Bon courage. Hope it all works out. Not easy when they reach a certain age - just been through it myself with the folks. I've had better years.
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We might be nitipicking here, but this is what I don't understand. Either the speed test is necessary to maintain the standards of tuition in France, or it's not.
If it is, presumably this is because it is important to have instructors who can ski quickly and ski skillfully at such speed. In which case, instructors need to be retested annually or so. To use my favourite analogy of the used car - MOTs are yearly: just because your car passed the MOT eight years ago does not mean it's roadworthy now. Likewise, it seems that a fair percentage of current ski instructors may well fail this speed test, even though they may have passed it some years ago.
So - is this test important or not? Who cares whether your instructor was a fast skier five years ago. If you need an instructor for high-speed skiing, (s)he needs to be fast now. If you need an instructor to teach you how to snowplough, (s)he doesn't need to be fast.
So either the speed test is a waste of time, or it's important enough to require regular retests.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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PG,
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| All members of the 31 nation-strong ISIA have agreed on identical standards since 2001. |
So do they all do this speed test?
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| A big percentage I should think, as age/health/fitness problems creep up on you. Same as for any other nationality, everyone's in the same situation. |
I see allowances for French old age but not for mere mortals, international equal standards? I think not.
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| Nonsense. There's absolutely no problem with accepting British ski instructors in France, whether this be at a British-run school or elsewhere - as long as they meet the internationally laid-down standards |
really is this why British ski instructors have been physically harassed on the slopes by the French?
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| Absolutely none of this has anything whatsoever to do with the topic under discussion. |
What racing results i.e. race trainning has nothing to do with teaching lower level skiers (the majority of skiers who take lessons) how to ski? At least we agree mostly on this point.
Bottom line - the French like the English £ but don't like the English earning French Euros.
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Masque, best wishes for your 'Mom' on April 12.
masopa, sorry to keep using medicine as analogy, but you suggest ski teachers ought to retake the GS test regularly - the subject of re-validation has been buzzing around doctors for some time. Just how do we make sure doctors remain OK? I had to take specialist exams to be an anaesthetist: seems reasonable. But I doubt I could pass the exam now (I bet many of us would fail the driving test!). Instead I have "experience" and lots of other knowledge. As PG writes: we "take on a different role as the years go by".
But I understand French ski instructors do have to revalidate in some way - my mate Christoph did tell me about it, but I can't recall the details - do you know PG?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I can kind of see the point about trainees from the French point of view, they are saying you can come and work in France when you are qualified but you must train through your own structures in your home country.
Kinds of puts Scotland at a bit of a disadvantage though. However I don't see why Mr Butler couldn't employ British instructors who were in the French diploma system working towards the French exam. The only problem, you seem to need the Eurotest to start down that track. What are the French saying? You have to be a French national to be a trainee or signed up to the French training program or working for a French ski school. This is still very unclear.
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It is not correct that you have to be a French National to go through the French Training system. If you speak good French anyone can do it. There is a qualification slalom to start called the "test technique", which is a lower standard than the European Speed Test. Then a 2 week course with a 2 day exam (written and practical) at the end of it. This is called the "Preformation" and allows you to work as a "stagiare" or apprentice. The Preformation is roughly equivalent to the BASI 3. After that there are a whole series of other courses to be taken culminating in the "Nationale" or "examen final". BASI 3's have equivalence to the Preformation.
What I don't understand about this discussion is why we're having it - Simon Butler was around 15 years ago when we were going through the painful negotiating stage, so why didn't he get involved then? As I understand it he's got away with teaching illegally for years while the rest of us jumped through the hoops.
On a different tack: When I worked in Scotland we had many Grade 3's and even Grade 3 trainees working. Ski Schools are businesses, so they were paid less and often worked more - it got to the point when a Grade 1 was virtually priced out of business on Cairngorm. Is this what we want? How many of these Grade 3's are professional Ski Teachers? Are any of them still teaching? Part time Ski Teachers do not count (now that's contentious isn't it?).
Re: price of ski lessons - it varies enormously from resort to resort. Here in Les 2 Alpes private lessons are from 35 - 45 euros per hour depending on number of clients and which Ski School you go to. This is hardly pricey. However a client of mine was recently quoted £89 per person for 2 people for 2 hours in Val d'Isere!
Re : Age - A friend of mine passed his Eurotest last week at the age of (I think) 47, so it is possible if undesirable for the body. He has trained a lot and taken it many times, but got there in the end.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Jonpim, I can totally appreciate your perspective, since a lot of medicine is (presumably) knowledge-based (or experience-based may be a better term). Therefore, as you grow older (aka more experienced), you become a better doctor. As you say, even though you may not be able to pass the exams, your relevant knowledge and experience is much improved over the recently qualified doctor.
Driving is more knowledge-based as well, but has some skill elements that are relatively quickly mastered (for some of us, anyway!) Should the need arise, I am sure we could easily relearn those areas we've let slip and repass our test. I personally think we should retake our driving tests periodically (every five or ten years).
However, skiing is not knowledge-based, but skill-based. For this reason, it is feasible that as you grow older, it may well become harder to achieve the same standards in the speed test. In a way, the older you get, the less capable you are likely to become - the complete opposite of knowledge-based analogies.
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masopa, I thought we'd discussed this.... To sum up, 'speed' isn't some kind of independent skier quality. It's the culmination of years of training most of which is nowhere near gates.
http://snowheads.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=18431#18431
The instructor's ability is established through this method. We're not talking Herminator standards here.
http://snowheads.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=18695#18695
With age instructors can be given less strenuous roles. But at least they started off at the highest level. Obviously a 50 year old will no longer be able to ski at the same rate as he did on passing the speed test. But imagine the speed/technique of a 50 year old who 20 years before couldn't get close to passing the test!
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You know it makes sense.
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Jonpim, Refresher course every couple of years, Easiski mentioned it somewhere earlier in the thread.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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DB, I'm sorry - must be late - but I really haven't got a clue where you're coming from. All of this has been covered earlier in the thread, links to the various international/national associations websites provided, full details of all the courses given. The other stuff you've come out with is nothing to do with the subject under discussion. All the big Alpine states have had their share of success and failure, so what. And what's that stuff about English £ and French Euros?! Give it a rest!
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Poster: A snowHead
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PG, you're missing my point, so I don't think we have discussed it. Yes, whether the speed test is actually necessary or relevant etc. has been debated at length, but what I am saying is whatever standards are in place should be in place for everyone - regardless of their previous abilities.
If older instructors can be given less strenuous roles, why can't a trainee instructor be given a less strenuous role? In fact, if the older instructor has spent 40+ years of his/her life skiing knees & feet together, skidding turns, isn't that instructor in danger of not teaching newer methods of skiing as well? The fact (s)he could ski round a GS (or slalom) course quickly some years ago is quite frankly irrelevant. What is much more relevant is whether (s)he could still compete - which would surely mean carving effectively around a modern GS course.
I'm not saying the speed test is irrelevant - If the speed test is an effective measure of someone's ability to teach, then it should be an effective measure for everyone. Therefore, those who haven't demonstrated that they can currently ski it shouldn't teach. Full stop.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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masopa, There are roles for trainees in skis schools in France, as they work up through the levels, via all the technical/teaching/linguistic courses/exams, over a considerable period of time. 450 hours minimum involved in fact, two thirds teaching and methodology, one third theory. And of course the second language - in the case of a Brit in France, this would be French.
To get started in France there's the technical test, a slalom, which is reasonably high level - at least the 'chamois de vermeil' level I think. You have to be a minimum of 17 years old, and have a basic first aid qualification. When you have this there's a two week course in a resort with an exam at the end. If successful, the candidate receives his three year training permit/cert, but from that point although he can be attached to a ski school he can only work with beginners and class 1 adults. Then over a minimum of 18 months courses and exams alternate, including practical teaching methodology, not forgetting of course the infamous Eurotest. I think there's a maximum of 4 years that you can maintain the trainee status, no more (the trainee certificate can be extended by a maximum of 1 year), before you have to accede to the fully fledged instructor status.
(All of this is from memory - an ESF instructor ran through the details with me over a liquid lunch.. so I hope it's reasonably accurate!)
ISIA agreed a cut-off date following which the test/training was standardised for all the signatory nations. Some BASI Is were exempt from the speed test if they were over 40 at that time.
The bar is set at a high level for new trainees. Obviously passing the Eurotest, particularly in combination with all the other training they've undergone, demonstrates that they can ski at the highest level. The rules do apply to everyone, irrespective of nationality. The compulsory refresher courses take place every couple of years as I understand it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Masque, I hadn't appreciated before this discussion that you were moving down the BASI route. As I'm at the stage of considering the same, I'd be keen to learn of your experience(s) to-date. If you don't mind, naturally. I'm quite prepared to go through the "pain" of getting in better shape to make the most of the opportunity that lies ahead, but getting to BASI 1 is unlikely not only because of the level of fitness required, but possibly because of the lack of opportunity to put in the requisite skiing hours. Not that I'm being defeatist, just realistic.
Hope all goes well with your Mother.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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[quote="easiski"]
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It is not correct that you have to be a French National to go through the French Training system. If you speak good French anyone can do it. There is a qualification slalom to start called the "test technique", which is a lower standard than the European Speed Test. Then a 2 week course with a 2 day exam (written and practical) at the end of it. This is called the "Preformation" and allows you to work as a "stagiare" or apprentice. The Preformation is roughly equivalent to the BASI 3. After that there are a whole series of other courses to be taken culminating in the "Nationale" or "examen final". BASI 3's have equivalence to the Preformation. |
Whilst skiing with an ESF instructor last week, we stopped to watch the "test technique" which a group of younger skiers were either training for or taking. The guy I was with, who I know quite well, reckoned they weren't that good on the whole! From my perspective, they looked quite accomplished and the standard one would have to achieve to be considered for becoming a stagiere certainly isn't easy to put it mildly.
From your experience, easiski, if one was to take BASI 3, is it expected that they need to perform the "test technique" or equivalent?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Mark Hunter,
Can't comment on the BASI equivalent (although it should be of an identical standard, there are a number of variables....) but I can tell you the exact standard expected in France....
Back a few pages (!) I explained how the French GS 'Flèche' system worked (to get gold you had to be within 17% of the forerunner's time, revised downwards according to his own FIS points to a lower time, in theory to one a recognised member of the full French team would have achieved. (Obviously if the forerunner has a bad/good day, this can vary.....)
The test technique works on a similar principle, not quite so tough though.
There are 2 forerunners. Both have start numbers between 1 and 10. If either feels they have not managed an acceptable run they can go again. The forerunners have a penalty coefficient between 97 and 102. The better the forerunner (ref FIS points) the higher the coefficient.
Slalom - between 42 and 55 gates, a 120 – 150m vertical drop. The time of the faster of the openers is used, using this formula:
Maximum admission time = best opener’s time X 1.22 X forerunner’s coefficient (between 0.97 and 1.02)
So you’re looking at somewhere around chamois de vermeil (white gold standard) as compared to the ESF open to all slalom tests.
For a woman, the opener’s time is multiplied by 100 over 95 before using the above formula.
The only way you can be exempt from the test is if you are ranked 120 FIS points in races for the season in question I believe. That does seem very high though!
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Tue 30-03-04 11:46; edited 1 time in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Developing the above a little, effectively the difference in level (ESF chamois compared to the test technique) is that the base time will hardly change at all for the test technique, while it will invariably be revised downwards several percentage points for the Chamois. And the margin for the test technique is bigger, 22% instead of 17% for the highest Chamois grade, full gold.
It's pretty high standard, but most of the better regular skiers at French club level will have reached this standard around 12/13 years old, to give you an idea. Some Gold Chamois holders achieved their times a year or two earlier, but I do have doubts about the efforts the forerunners put into their runs at times!
Ideally if you take the ESF Chamois (at least once a week in most resorts), this will give you or anyone else wanting to give it a go a pretty good idea of where you stand in relation to the test technique..... based on the above comparison....
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The more I read about this, the more turned off I am about the whole thing.
Sorry, but the development of ski technique since the 1850s has been about the evolution of turning skis effectively, efficiently, creatively, and enjoyably in all the conditions and terrain that exist. There have been remarkable changes, primarily resulting from regular re-inventions of ski equipment.
If people want to learn race technique, that's admirable, but importing the stopwatch and all these damned percentages into the culture of ski teaching is more likely to rule good potential teachers out of the sport than include them.
Look at any of the classic books on ski technique. Gates, times, race turns and the rest barely figure - for good reason. Recreational skiers are not competitive in that arena. Don't get me wrong - ski racing makes good TV and I enjoy following it, but it's a different world to recreational skiing. An alien world for many.
I appreciate that this is at complete odds with PGs arguments, and will now withdraw from this thread as I've nothing further to add!
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David Goldsmith, I appreciate your position. In fact I think that fundamentally we agree - particularly on the vital role of teaching skills. Where we differ is on what being able to race/ski quickly actually entails, and especially, what the ability to ski quickly through a set course specifically tells us about the skier's ability and technique, his physical and mental strength, ability to judge the terrain, vision, adaptability....
I also remain concerned about the consequences of a lowering of current standards. There is a maximum need for 300 new instructors on a full-time seasonal basis, plus a number on an occasional basis, each year in France. As we are being told that resorts under 2000m may not be able to sustain a skiing economy somewhere between a decade and fifteen years hence, where does that leave this particular profession?
Anyway, I have enjoyed crossing swords with you in this discussion - always good to be able to hold a civilised debate with someone.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| PG wrote: |
| DB, I'm sorry - must be late - but I really haven't got a clue where you're coming from. All of this has been covered earlier in the thread, links to the various international/national associations websites provided, full details of all the courses given. The other stuff you've come out with is nothing to do with the subject under discussion. All the big Alpine states have had their share of success and failure, so what. And what's that stuff about English £ and French Euros?! Give it a rest! |
PG,
Skipped through the thread so missed a couple of points. We agree that teaching standards should be maintained and yes people should abide by the rules. Having said that it always seems to be the British instructors who come under pressure from the French - has anyone heard of something similar happening to the Austrians, Swiss or Italians in France?
I've taken lessons from French, British, Dutch and Austrian ski instructors. The Dutch instructor had been a racer in his time but I wouldn't say this added a lot to how he taught or that he was one of the best teachers in my experience. Yes he was fast but this was more intimidating than inspiring. My best lessons were with native English speakers and older more experienced instructors IMHO experience, patience and good communication add more to the teaching experience than anything else. If we don't look after our British ski instructors abroad then they could become a dying breed. If the reason for all this is genuine difference in ability or failure to meet universally enforced standards/rules then OK.
In my experience British instructors have a harder time abroad (especially in France). At the end of the day I'm the customer my money goes on helping the people that help me to improve the most (i.e. native English speakers).
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Is the speed test down the same cousre as a fleche test - or something more akin to a FIS GS course?
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