 Poster: A snowHead
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| Also just think of the hassle of trying to conduct a search, with a bunch of punters whizzing by forgetting to switch their trannies from transmit. |
This is very important point
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| dobby wrote: |
| SkiPresto, if I am staying on pisted runs which are officially open then no, why should I have full avo kit? It would be lovely to have but at a cost of £300+ it ain't gonna happen. And before you go on about the value of nothing, I used to dive a lot and you have the training and safety kit appropriate for the risks involved. If I was going off piste or was even thinking of going off piste I would get the kit and the necessary training. |
I think you have the key point there when you said "If I was going off piste or was even thinking of going off piste I would get the kit and the necessary training".
I really am not advocating transceivers for all. Just all reasonably experienced skiers who would be going up the mountain on a powder day - especially in bad visibility or snowing conditions.
My point is that even if an all-mountain skier was planning only to ski the pistes with the family that morning, he/she should still wear the transceiver regardless and carry the sac on a powder day, rather than leaving it at home.
| Quote: |
| Why have full avo kit? |
Firstly: personal plans might change, and the opportunity comes up to ski some lift-accessible offpiste. Secondly: There could be an avalanched party off to the side of the piste or below a steep pitch on to the piste at which a search receiver is required.
There is a third reason. The piste might have 1.5 to 2m of powder on it! I've just been viewing a colleague's photo from Meribel today. He's 6'8" and all you can see is his head above the snow when he is skiing. I think they are talking of wearing flag-masts on top of their helmets tomorrow.
Here is a fourth reason. Imagine skiing back down the green home-run. Someone in your group pings off the track down a steep bank of deep snow. If transceivers are worn, locating someone lying injured under the surface would be much easier - especially, as quite often happens, you have to hike back up the piste to find the the point of departure.
Another reason could be to get your pals together for some transceiver-search training. Just having the kit isn't enough. Frequent training is essential.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Personally I wear a transceiver and carry probe and shovel all the time, as do my mates. That way if we want to cut across between Pistes or play off the sides even on a piste day we have the equipment with us. We could also help in a rescue if needed. If its a powder day we are equipped. Its a no brainer for us (mind you we dig snow caves for dinner, and are always playing in the soft stuff etc)
As for the cost its coming down. One of our group just got fully equiped for £160 with a Pieps Freeride, cheap 240cm poles and an economy shovel. Pretty impressed with the Pieps. Considering its price it works fine and when we were prscticising he could find our beacons no probs, its just its range is lower than my S1 and S1+. Thats less than some pay for a helmet!
Now folks may say the freeride is a poor choice, but I'll tell you if I get buried, Id rather have my mate near with his cheapy pieps than no mates carrying anything.
Also of the 3 Avalanches I have personally been near over the years, 2 of them have covered a piste, one with more than 4m deep over >200m length, and the other was alongside the piste in what many would have considered a play area.
Now my non skiing wife has seen a video on you tube of an avalanche air bag and Im being pressured to wear one even for piste skiing. But as she has offered to by it for me for Christmas I cant complain too much and of course its a great idea for when I am off pisteing. I'm lucky in that I ski with 2 groups, one off piste and one very firmly on piste. I will feel a plonker wearing the ABS on the piste trips but at least I will be a very much safer plonker.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Sat 8-12-12 23:34; edited 1 time in total
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| SkiPresto wrote: |
There is a third reason. The piste might have 1.5 to 2m of powder on it! I've just been viewing a colleague's photo from Meribel today. He's 6'8" and all you can see is his head above the snow when he is skiing. I think they are talking of wearing flag-masts on top of their helmets tomorrow.
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Pics or it didn't happen.
Now where's that fish emoticon? 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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^  that was a photo of skimottaret, and the mention of flags on top of helmets was a joke for the benefit of Linds, not serious!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Mike Pow, I think this was the photo that was mentioned. Unusually deep for lower slopes of Meribel on 8 December, although not quite up there with Japow!
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FFS everyone, can we please stop it with the massive over-reaction. There is no reason at all for forcing everyone to cart avalanche kit round the pistes regardless of whether the snow on the rest of the hill is two metre deep powder or bulletproof ice. Or are SkiPresto et al suggesting that Mr and Mrs Punter should buy avalanche transceivers for their three ankle biters in jardin de neige on the grounds that it's on a piste? 
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Mike Pow, I think this was the photo that was mentioned. Unusually deep for lower slopes of Meribel on 8 December, although not quite up there with Japow! |
That's deep fair play.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Face shots all day!
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| FFS everyone, can we please stop it with the massive over-reaction. |
Yep, it's right up there with helmet hysteria.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Lizzard, well said.
It's ludicrous to suggest all skiers should carry avi kit.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Interesting discussion, i have on numerous occasions gone out for an easy on piste day leaving my rucksack and beacon etc behind in the chalet only to end up spotting something to good to miss and skiing it without avi gear.
So it makes good sense if you like to ski offpiste to allways kit up !
If you dont go 'off' then v little point in investing.
Surely one of the beauties of France is its lack of HSE busy bodies and nanny state, had this happened in England you could be sure that the goverment would put restrictive laws in place to prevent us from hurting ourselves.(and having fun.)
Educate people but let them make their own decisions imo ! Can still encourage people, posters in lift stations etc but i get the feeling that resorts dont like to mention the 'A' word at all if they can help it.
There is (or was last year) a freeride station on the top of the Toviere with information, safety recomendations for off piste skiing/riding and a beacon test point which alarms as you aproach to confirm you are transmitting ok.. this seems to be the right way to go encouraging skiers who need it to buy and test the kit.
I did a tour last year with Evolution2 treking from Toviere up past the weather station and 'Mickeys Ears' then ski down to Lac Chevril and a heli ride out.
Evo2 not only supplied Tranceivers to anyone without, but also Abs backpacks..
A couple of snowboarders proudly stated that they did a lot of off piste riding but then they had no safety equipment !
The bollocking they received from our guide infront of the group would ensure that beacons shovels & probes where top of their christmas present list this year .
Having found myself in one or two scary situations I have now taken the next step and invested in an Airbag, seems the logical thing esp when reading about this sort of tragedy !
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Sun 9-12-12 17:46; edited 1 time in total
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| scarbski wrote: |
Makes me wonder had the unfortunate girl been with an Evo2 instructor instead of Esf there may have been a less tragic outcome. |
Maybe you should get your facts right before 'wondering about the ESF'. French TV have issued an apology for incorrectly stating it was an ESF instructor, maybe you should do the same.
The real tradegy is a young woman lost her life and it could easily have been prevented.
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You know it makes sense.
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Thankyou for pointing that out, post amended !
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| scarbski wrote: |
| Having found myself in one or two scary situations I have now taken the next step and invested in an Airbag, seems the logical thing esp when reading about this sort of tragedy ! |
Presumably you've already done some structured Avi training? This isn't to suggest you haven't, just taking the opportunity to make the point generally off the back of your comment.
I should say, I haven't taken that step yet although I've had a lot of informal guidance, read a bit, and plan to take a course sooner than later. It worries me that people might leave out this important step and instead substitute equipment for knowledge.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
i get the feeling that resorts dont like to mention the 'A' word at all if they can help it.
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Not so. Eg in 2Alpes:
- avalanche warning is always posted online/on the resort app/at the lifts
- in case of high risk, ticket sales staff are reminded to advise customers against skiing off piste
- the Arva Park at the top of the Bellecombe lift is available all season for people to practise with transceivers
- the tourist office runs free avalanche and off piste training sessions once a week
We don't want you to go home dead any more that you do yourself. Apart from anything else it means you won't come back and spend more money next season.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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As someone who is deffo' a punter rather than a serious skier this is quite an interesting thread. I was at the PSB and saw DoubleBombardino when he returned to the hotel. It was a sobering moment. I'm a cautious skier and don't do anything I don't think I can't handle. I'll only go off-piste a little bit and only when I'm with people I trust completely (and that's a very short list). I know how ignorant I am and will ask instructors what they can see in the landscape, because I can see absolutely no features where they can see the lie of the land. However I spent a lot of the week with very enthusiastic younger skiers who could very eailly get caught up in the moment and go where they shouldn't because they don't know any better.
There seem to be two arguments running here.
1) Anyone who hasn't had the appropriate training shouldn't go off-piste.
2) Anyone who might go off-piste (at any point) should be carrying the right equipment.
The vast majority of "holiday" skiers simply won't go off-piste so unless an avalanche spills onto the piste they aren't at significant risk. They probably won't ski if conditions are a bit challenging and they don't see the off-piste as their territory. That leaves you with two groups who are at risk. Firstly the enthusiastic but ignorant. They go off piste because they see other people doing it and it looks like fun. They probably haven't even checked the avi risk for the day and have no idea of what risks they are taking. This is the group that needs basic awareness training which is difficult for resorts and tour companies to provide as it could, potentially, scare off the less adventurous skiers. Secondly there are the competent but over confident skiers. These are the people who really ought to know what they are doing but make mistakes from time to time (as we all do). To a certian extent these are people who accept the risks.
The problem with regulating the first group is the fear scaring off a lot of the regular bread-and-butter punters. However, once the intial campaign is over, everything returns to normal. Despite all the warnings about skin cancer I don't notice fewer peple taking summer holidays. They just take more precautions.
The problem with regulating the second group is that they really don't want to be regulated. Which is resonable if they understand and accept the risks that they are taking.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| flowa wrote: |
| scarbski wrote: |
| Having found myself in one or two scary situations I have now taken the next step and invested in an Airbag, seems the logical thing esp when reading about this sort of tragedy ! |
Presumably you've already done some structured Avi training?
It worries me that people might leave out this important step and instead substitute equipment for knowledge. |
Simple answer is No, I have like yourself picked up some information and awareness from instructors and guides but i really do need to get on a proper course.
Problem is finding something available at the right time,
But as i am heading to 2Alpes on Sat i will see if i can book in to their course, Thanks for info Lizzard !
I am really keen to be able to return and give you more of my money..
eta
Just looked on website. It says course runs Mondays from mid Jan - mid April. Darn it !
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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scarbski, good on you.
Our very own Easiski is based there. Instructor-extraordinaire, who if she isn't available herself is going to know an awesome alternative.
Have a great time 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I'd say you can and should practise transceiver searches with your mates.
The tip is to remember to take a carrier bag to keep a buried transceiver dry.
secondly, before burying a transceiver remember to switch it on.
Third, remember it's a radio signal and the field strength radiates in a sphere. So be ready to move in a circle.
fourth. In a deep burial, say 3m, when your receiver indicates range is 3m, you may well be right on top of it.
When you can locate a single transciever in under 3 minutes, bury two and learn how to range on one of them when the other range is coming in too.
Then, see if you can locate a buried transciever while skiing past, trying to keep above it.
This will be familiar to experienced people, but I mention it so that others don't feel they need to go on a course before practising.
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Great post little ms spock! Raises three points in my mind:
Your first group, the "enthusiastic but ignorant". 20 years ago earning the experience required to make turns in deep powder on skinny skis made this group proportionally much smaller. The advent of boards, fat skis, and the whole X-games culture has turned this around. I don't know what can be done about it though, a "health warning" on the equipment packaging and safety trailer before the stoke-vid would be a good start - but it'll never happen 
The second group, the "competent but over confident" might be a bit too simplistic. Of course the over confident are at risk, but also at risk are the sensible, avi training taking, beacon wearing, weather and snow studying experts making good decisions with all the information available to them. Because it's always a calculated risk, and no matter how much you reduce the odds it never reaches zero. If it's steep enough to ski it's steep enough to slide, you can't educate or spend your way out of that reality - although there are plenty of organizations claiming you can 
"The problem with regulating the second group is that they really don't want to be regulated. Which is reasonable if they understand and accept the risks that they are taking." This is is bit I have the most concerns about (since it's where I'd put myself), because it's a pretty bloody selfish position to take if you think about the rescue personnel (and their families). No doubt they do it because they choose to, and get paid for it etc. etc. but it still makes me very uncomfortable. If you could sign a "don't bother 'till the Spring" register at the ski-patrol office I'd think about it, but they've no way of knowing who it is under the snow. I'd be keen to know how other snowheads rationalise this, it can't be just me with these concerns... 
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On the issue of cost of trancievers etc, they do actually last for many years.
I got mine 12 years ago, so I divide the price by the number of years use and it is quite cheap.
Also, it can save other peoples' lives. With one important precondition.The other people need to be wearing a beeping transceiver.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Shep. I liked that last post of yours.
Here's how I rationalise it.
Skiing on a big powder day, people need to be cool, respect the mountain as being a raw force of nature, and have respect for others. Also, If you have a transciever, wear it, and carry probe and shovel. Probes and shovels are really useful for digging out buried skis too. If you aren't properly equipped for the conditions, it doesn't show respect either for the mountain or others.
For ski teachers, I think the manslaughter charge made on the leader individual on the Toviere tragedy will make me for one never take anyone outside the markers unless they are fully equipped.
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SkiPresto, thanks  , but my question is a bit more subtle than that (but perhaps poorly put). What I struggle with is:
How respectful of the rescue services is it, to willfully ski deep fresh powder knowing it's not possible to reduce the very real risk of them dying coming to help you to zero, no matter how conscientious you are?
(Your clients are still at risk if fully equipped. 20% are dead before the snow stops moving. I'd be surprised if them having beacons were enough to avoid the manslaughter charge if you were found to have taken them there recklessly.)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| shep wrote: |
SkiPresto, thanks , but my question is a bit more subtle than that (but perhaps poorly put). What I struggle with is:
How respectful of the rescue services is it, to willfully ski deep fresh powder knowing it's not possible to reduce the very real risk of them dying coming to help you to zero, no matter how conscientious you are?
(Your clients are still at risk if fully equipped. 20% are dead before the snow stops moving. I'd be surprised if them having beacons were enough to avoid the manslaughter charge if you were found to have taken them there recklessly.) |
In reply to Shep --- Here's my £0.02 worth. Sorry for the long story.
Well, the answer is simple. It is possible.
It is possible to reduce the risk to the rescue services if you don't rely on the rescue services, but ensure you and your party travels such that you can self-rescue. Travelling one at a time, not hanging about, are wary of the terrain below the slope you plan to ski, and are wearing transceivers so that anyone in the group can do a search, and locate the others.
If you make sure you move from place of relative safety to another, then that can manage the risk.
If the leader is looking after the group responsibly, then the person taking the risk is most likely the leader. For that reason, the leader's clients are the "rescue services"! So it's vital to train them well beforehand.
"Willfully skiing deep fresh powder" is what most decent skiers crave! On a powder day, you'll probably find lots of safe powder fields. But if the snow is falling, the visibility will be poor. Also - skiing during heavy snowfall with fresh deep accumulations can be very risky, and not to be recommended. Especially in early season where the base has not been established firmly. Especially if it is windy. Not that this fact puts off today's enthusiasts.
(In days of yore, only the expert experienced skiers and climbers could manage the offpiste skiing. They would usually be found in a bar during a heavy pre-season snowfall, and give it 3 or four days for the snowpack to settle before going up)..
Smaller less skibummy resorts are better than the big well-known resorts because the untracked in-resort powder lasts beyond 10am.
Reduce the risk even more. Wait for a good day and get a guide....
Skiing with a guide who knows the resort, the snowpack and has experience of many seasons on these mountains is always a safer option than doing it yourself. Even expert skiers who don't know the subtleties of the snowpack and the slope aspects in the wind, choose to take a guide.
It's mainly the slab avalanches that cause the big incidents with multiple casualties. A proper guide can avoid such terrain, but can lead you to safe, settled powder days after the in-resort powder-bowls are covered in moguls.
Skiing in the back-country (Rather than in-resort-offpiste) you cannot expect mountain rescue services to be able to get there in time to locate and recover a casualty quickly, especially in bad weather when the helicopters are grounded.
However:
The big stations like Tignes are very keen to attract skiers into the in-resort offpiste. Provided they are trained and equipped. This is what people come to Tignes for, and the station prides itself on its accessible offpiste.
But - people take liberties.
http://api.dmcloud.net/player/pubpage/4f3d114d94a6f66945000325/50c0df3e06361d0db1030582/b4b28cc524c14057a543026518f6d778?wmode=transparent Tignes Toviere : This movie clip shows that even on the day after the tragic avalanche - the very day Chloe died in Grenoble Hospital, people were skiing Toviere heights (Paquerettes Run) without transceivers, and the pisteurs are getting het up. Quite right. Even more snow had fallen, and the Av Risk was 5/5 for a time. Lift passes should have been confiscated.
Risk to pisteurs and rescue services
The pisteurs have a dangerous job and it is not unheard of for fatal accidents among pisterurs, but these tend to be when they are testing and releasing accumulations of snow, or in snowmobile incidents. They are highly trained in avalanche rescue, and will secure any in-resort scene with expertise.
The big point is: If a buried skier isn't beeping, it takes a major mobilisation of the station's emergency response procedure. That puts many people un-necessarily into the risk-zone when a mass probe search is called.
Whereas, a transponder-wearing buried casualty can be located very quickly if there is someone else on the spot with a search receiver.
Manslaughter charge...
I am pretty sure (After trying to research the French reports) that there would be a different charge applied in this tragedy if the victim and leader had been wearing a transceiver, even for a fatal outcome. However, If the casualty had been located within a few minutes, there would have been a much more favourable chance of a much better outcome. The male casualty was buried for 15 minutes, and although extracted unconscious, recovered immediately.
I expect the leader would have been wearing a transceiver, but this hasn't been made clear in this case.
Reducing risk - the terrain below the pich ...
In avalanche incidents, much depends on the terrain the victims get swept into. In the case on Toviere, it looks like crushing or other trauma wasn't a factor, although this will come out in an inquest.
How heavy is snow? ....
If you try practising with your friends on a light powder day, try covering your mate with even half a metre of of light powder snow, and it can be seen that movement is almost impossible. Once the face is covered (care required obviously), you can imagine that CO2 builds up quickly and loss of consciousness results.
Imagine, though, if the casualty is swept into a terrain-trap or small ditch, the burial then is much more serious. Crushing pressure can result. Lightweight shovels become useless if the snow is compacted with such pressure.
You mentioned "Beacons"
The thing is "Beacons" are different from "Transceivers". Yes, the transceiver is a radio transmitter beacon under normal circumstances when you are skiing, but it has a switch to make it a receiver when required to do a search. Beacon devices are available at much cheaper cost, but a Beacon-only device is transmit-only.
A transmit-only device is inherently pretty useless, because it relies on other people to have the receiver search ranging device. Too bad if everyone has only got beacons - or the one guy who has the receiver is the victim.
"Transponders" (like Recco System) are different again. They work like a reflector. When a powerful signal is received, it sends a reply pulse. Again. They are useless in practice because they can't be used to search, and they don't work with regular transceivers.
I hope you find this a worthwhile read... Let me know if you don't agree with any of these points. Obviously, there are large books available on the subject and these are only notes.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| madmole wrote: |
Personally I wear a transceiver and carry probe and shovel all the time, as do my mates. That way if we want to cut across between Pistes or play off the sides even on a piste day we have the equipment with us. We could also help in a rescue if needed. If its a powder day we are equipped. Its a no brainer for us .... etc
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Well said, interesting post.
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SkiPresto, you haven't understood/answered his question.
shep, good question, hard to give a good answer...
Tbh, I probably don't think about it enough. However I always try to be self reliant, and act like there's no rescue coming (even from my group). Secondly, I'm certainly willing to 'return the favour' and help as best I can with rescuing others. Third... whether it seems selfish or not, they do make a choice to go out and rescue people, they're not obligated to if they're not comfortable with the risk - and if the time ever comes (touchwood) I won't be complaining if they choose not to risk themselves to save me.
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You know it makes sense.
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3 brits in avalanche in verbier yesterday...on slope notorious for slides... none with tranceivers.
11 swedes in another in engelberg...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| spud wrote: |
3 brits in avalanche in verbier yesterday...on slope notorious for slides... none with tranceivers.
11 swedes in another in engelberg... |
which slope in verbier was it that went?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| skir67 wrote: |
| spud wrote: |
3 brits in avalanche in verbier yesterday...on slope notorious for slides... none with tranceivers.
11 swedes in another in engelberg... |
which slope in verbier was it that went? |
Col de Mines at an altitude of 2,660m.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
which slope in verbier was it that went?
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BobinCH on TGR posted a photo showing a slide between Creblet and Mines, apparently. Mentioned also that the Vallon d'Arbi traverse also went, which is not a massive surprise either.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| spud wrote: |
| skir67 wrote: |
| spud wrote: |
3 brits in avalanche in verbier yesterday...on slope notorious for slides... none with tranceivers.
11 swedes in another in engelberg... |
which slope in verbier was it that went? |
Col de Mines at an altitude of 2,660m. |
Ah right. Thanks for the info. Did they survive it?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Unbelievable..
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| skir67 wrote: |
| spud wrote: |
| skir67 wrote: |
| spud wrote: |
3 brits in avalanche in verbier yesterday...on slope notorious for slides... none with tranceivers.
11 swedes in another in engelberg... |
which slope in verbier was it that went? |
Col de Mines at an altitude of 2,660m. |
Ah right. Thanks for the info. Did they survive it? |
Yes...although one in hospital for hypothermia apparantly.
Beggars belief that people are skiing offpiste in 4/5 catagory with no tranceivers.
Would love to know whether they knew anything about the slopes they were skiing on.
So many Brits i know, just turn up in resort and throw themselves down anything without any local knowledge about slopes. Many don't even look for avalanche risk warnings either...they just ski regardless...mental imho.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
SkiPresto, you haven't ..... /answered his question.
shep, good question, hard to give a good answer...
Tbh, I probably don't think about it enough. However I always try to be self reliant, and act like there's no rescue coming (even from my group). Secondly, I'm certainly willing to 'return the favour' and help as best I can with rescuing others. Third... whether it seems selfish or not, they do make a choice to go out and rescue people, they're not obligated to if they're not comfortable with the risk - and if the time ever comes (touchwood) I won't be complaining if they choose not to risk themselves to save me. |
Clarky - I did my best to give a useful answer to Shep's rather closed question.
His question was :
| Quote: |
| How respectful of the rescue services is it, to willfully ski deep fresh powder knowing it's not possible to reduce the very real risk of them dying coming to help you to zero, no matter how conscientious you are? |
Which is a rhetorical question, and it is obviously some kind of block for him.
So I effectively redefined the question, leaving out his implicit assumption, and attempted to answer that with a simple "Be Self Reliant" - and that takes "The rescue services", and his assumed reliance on them - out of the consideration to a certain extent.
Now for your answer. You seem to have re-written my answer in short form as far as self-reliance is concerned. Something you omitted to acknowledge.
I did think quite a bit about my answer, whereas you say you didn't think about [the subject] enough.
Footnote:
There's far too much Ad-Hom attack on Snowheads forum. "You haven't understood" is an attack against me the person, and has nothing to do with the facts. "Let me develop Skipresto's answer from a different viewpoint ..." would have been a useful contribution.
Also, the use of "To be honest" in an answer implies that honesty is a variable, and it detracts from a writer's credibility.
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People are getting too hung up on the risk rating. 4/5 isn't made safer because you have a transceiver, the fact that you don't have a transceiver is just an indicator that you're probably pretty clueless generally about avy terrain and triggers. It's too easy to make blanket judgements based on a rating which is in itself blanket for a whole area. It's not necessarily reckless to ski some offpiste at 4 or 5 (though you might want to ensure in the latter it's fairly meadow skippy), equally 2 or 3 doesn't guarantee your safety. If you don't understand about how to dial back the powder sickness when the risk is high though AND make your own evaluation of risk based on what you can see, hear and feel you really need to be getting some help.
I get it, I'd find it very difficult myself to watch lots of other people going to get powdery goodness while I stay in "safe" terrain, but having had an "epic run" doesn't mean you haven't diced with death on the way. FWIW People seem to push it far more than is sensible these days, after the volume of snow this week, everyone skiing offpiste should have been on high alert this weekend, not out to rape as much as possible.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
shep, good question, hard to give a good answer...
Tbh, I probably don't think about it enough. However I always try to be self reliant, and act like there's no rescue coming (even from my group). Secondly, I'm certainly willing to 'return the favour' and help as best I can with rescuing others. Third... whether it seems selfish or not, they do make a choice to go out and rescue people, they're not obligated to if they're not comfortable with the risk - and if the time ever comes (touchwood) I won't be complaining if they choose not to risk themselves to save me. |
Thanks clarky, that's exactly what I was getting at, and your opinion is very reassuring. It more or less gels the random justifications rattling around loose in my addled noggin! Playing devil's advocate does help to focus the mind somehow  . I guess the point to take on board is that although one's own sense of self preservation ought to be enough motivation to educate and equip yourself properly, thinking about the consequences of putting others in harms way unnecessarily should also be a major consideration.
And thanks SkiPresto for taking the time to respond too 
| fatbob wrote: |
It's not necessarily reckless to ski some offpiste at 4 or 5 (though you might want to ensure in the latter it's fairly meadow skippy), equally 2 or 3 doesn't guarantee your safety. If you don't understand about how to dial back the powder sickness when the risk is high though AND make your own evaluation of risk based on what you can see, hear and feel you really need to be getting some help. |
Well said that man! I had an epic day yesterday in Avoriaz, avoiding a lot of the sketchy lines being skied all around us, but poaching one long virgin pitch which I've been watching from my living-room for the last 19 years without ever seeing it slide  . Any despite my soul-searching above, I didn't feel the slightest bit guilty!
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