 Poster: A snowHead
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Your work here is done then.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Arctic Roll wrote: |
| Although, as one of them did say to me: "if commercants aren't complaining... they're probably dead". |
I think it was last seaosn, or maybe the season before Les Belles Pintes (which I like to stop at because it's comfortable, convenient and has free wifi) reduced the price of their hot chocolate by 40 cents a couple of weeks in to the season. It was still expensive, but for me it made the difference, especially as the exchange rate was very poor at the time. So I was more likely to stop there for a break than other places on that side of the hill. The Arpette always has caraffes of water available for you, so you don't feel as if you're being coerced in to buying stupidly expensive bottled water. The Bulles Bar does the cheapest espresso that I've found in the Alps, just 90 cents. All these little touches mean I'm much more likely to use those places as I don't feel like I'm being ripped off. The cafe bar next to my place in 1800 (the Tandem Cafe) does very reasonable pizzas and burgers, and I get the occasional small beer on the house because the owner is friendly (same chap who said he would have to close without the Brits). La Vache above Peisey is very friendly and seems good value. The Mont Blanc nearby is in a central location and is a great place to stop for coffee, also has free wifi. I use them frequently.
On the other hand, the Poudrouse above Vallandry (or whatever it's called currently) didn't seem prepared to let me have a glass of tap water when I wanted to have lunch there a couple of seasons ago. I've not been back since.
To me it all comes down to attitude. Do you see your customers as something to be valued and well-served, or punters that you need to make the biggest buck from as they pass thorough in their one and only week in your resort. Too many places get it wrong, IMO.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar, we used The Tandem Cafe for beers when we stayed at your place. A little local knowledge is valuable thing, however, when you are trying to explore all you can in just one week sometimes your on the spot locations and timings don't mean that you can pick and choose your eateries. Sometimes you have to be prepared to go with what is there.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| rob@rar, we used The Tandem Cafe for beers when we stayed at your place. A little local knowledge is valuable thing, however, when you are trying to explore all you can in just one week sometimes your on the spot locations and timings don't mean that you can pick and choose your eateries. Sometimes you have to be prepared to go with what is there. |
Sure, but that applies to any place you ski not just France. I'm simply questioning whether, as you suggest, eating in France is nearly 400% more expensive than eating in Austria. I simply don't believe that is comparing like with like.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Megamum this is a really old conversation on snowHeads and I don't usually bother to post on such threads... but 80 euros a day on the hill?!
If you really would prefer to ski in France, don't go to the expensive places. As rob says, either go to a cheaper place in a big resort, or go to a cheaper resort.
Espresso € 1,30; Large Coffee € 2; Glass of Wine € 2; Bottle of Leffe € 3; Pint of Heineken € 4,50; Homemade Burger and Fries € 6; Panini € 4. Obviously they have lots of other stuff but these are standard Brit selections. They are genuinely tasty products as well, made and served by a really lovely and friendly couple.
You really don't need to spend 80 euros on a family of 4 on the hill in France.
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According to one of the ESF Instructors on their FB page, the English are specific in their wants....which according to him makes us 'not good customers'.... 
The amount of dislike towards the English on their page is incredulous.... especially when they were coming over to England to drum up business.
How hypocritical.
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| spud wrote: |
| According to one of the ESF Instructors on their FB page, the English are specific in their wants....which according to him makes us 'not good customers'.... |
Thank you for illustrating my exact point! The whole thing about this legal challenge is that it is putting the provider first (in this case the ESF who seem to be the main protagonists) not the customer. Those places who put the customer first and work hard to deliver a product which seems value for money will get loyalty and repeat business. Treat them like idiots and they will go elsewhere, which is bad, or just opt out of buying that service altogether, which is even worse.
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I always consider what I'd be spending at home anyway. In other words, you don't make you or your kids starve just because you're not in a ski resort, so it's the difference in cost you're looking at and then just factor in the fact you are away from home and meant to be "on holiday". In other words... relax.
Italy and Austria are cheaper than France but it's marginal in the whole scheme of things. I'm more interested in the quality (food and surroundings) and the way that I'm served rather than just the price. The headline prices, like 9 Euro for a large Eurofizzlager, that you can experience in some French places, are what gives rise to the perception that it's the same all over. But it isn't.
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| spud wrote: |
The amount of dislike towards the English on their page is incredulous.... |
I find it incredible that you find that so surprising. Some French people are hacked off with some English people over this whole ESF v TO hosts thing and so are having an unreasonable rant on the internet about the 'bloody English'... quelle surprise.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Italy and Austria are cheaper than France but it's marginal in the whole scheme of things. I'm more interested in the quality (food and surroundings) and the way that I'm served rather than just the price. The headline prices, like 9 Euro for a large Eurofizzlager, that you can experience in some French places, are what gives rise to the perception that it's the same all over. But it isn't. |
I agree completely. If a bar wants €9 for a beer just go somewhere else, perhaps asking your ski host for a recommendation on avoiding the rip-off places.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Wonder how the bloody Dutch and bloody Danish etc tour ops get on with the bloody ESF.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Italy and Austria are cheaper than France but it's marginal in the whole scheme of things. I'm more interested in the quality (food and surroundings) and the way that I'm served rather than just the price. The headline prices, like 9 Euro for a large Eurofizzlager, that you can experience in some French places, are what gives rise to the perception that it's the same all over. But it isn't. |
I agree completely. If a bar wants €9 for a beer just go somewhere else, perhaps asking your ski host for a recommendation on avoiding the rip-off places. |
Absolutely. One only has to use a bit of savvy.
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| miranda wrote: |
| spud wrote: |
The amount of dislike towards the English on their page is incredulous.... |
I find it incredible that you find that so surprising. Some French people are hacked off with some English people over this whole ESF v TO hosts thing and so are having an unreasonable rant on the internet about the 'bloody English'... quelle surprise. |
Surely there's more than enough Anti-French comment on  to trump most of the Pull Rouge's ?
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You know it makes sense.
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| Zero-G wrote: |
Your work here is done then. |
On the contrary. While others were urging the police to bundle the flashing moniteurs into the backs of police buses, I was preparing a warm welcome comprising ...
... plus a pair of 'old school' Salomon skis festooned with a string of onions and garlic, and a 'Bienvenue à Londres' banner.
This is a terrible outcome.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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As I said before Local knowledge is a fine thing. Then you have to be prepared to find these out of the way places and what one person thinks is ideal may not be another's cup of tea once they are located.
A case in point re: a cheap restaurant that someone recommended to us some where over on the La Plagne side of things. We skied all the way over to the village, it took nearly an hour to find the place which was upstairs in a shopping area, they were stuffed to the gunnels in a tight little room, serving just one dish of the day which only one of us would have eaten. The kids were starving hungry and in the finish we had lunch on some cakes from a patisserie! If that is the sort of exercise that the average 1 week a year holiday maker has to go through to find the cheap places it is little wonder we don't think they exist. I was told before leaving that I would find Austria significantly cheaper than where I had stayed in France. That was certainly the case.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Tue 20-11-12 16:03; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Hells Bells wrote: |
| miranda wrote: |
| spud wrote: |
The amount of dislike towards the English on their page is incredulous.... |
I find it incredible that you find that so surprising. Some French people are hacked off with some English people over this whole ESF v TO hosts thing and so are having an unreasonable rant on the internet about the 'bloody English'... quelle surprise. |
Surely there's more than enough Anti-French comment on to trump most of the Pull Rouge's ? |
Yes, but we're not touting for their business.
Talk about bite the hand that feeds you.
I really do hope all TO's (non French) promote non ESF ski schools to their clients.
I'm personally not suprised, by some of their Instructors comments... it's just incredulous that they actually say it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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spud, come on - a few arsey ESF instructors write crap on the facebook page and you want a mass boycott of the ESF? I can guarantee that NONE of the ESF instructors in my area would be participating in that sort of rubbish and I certainly don't want to see people like that lose their livelihood over this sort of stupid internet spat.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Megamum wrote: |
| As I said before Local knowledge is a fine thing. |
Indeed, which comes back to my point about going the extra mile to make sure that your guests receive a good service. There are too many places, in all countries, which don't want to provide that extra bit of service. As a result it's pretty easy to tarnish the reputation of the entire resort, region or even country. You don't have to travel out of your way to find decent service or decent skiing, just have a little bit of help to find it.
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
'FLASHPINT' CANCELLED
to cancel the pre-flash flashbash and 'flashpint' at the Red Lion in Whitehall.
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I can't be the only person who read this using reverse nanny filter
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| miranda wrote: |
| spud, come on - a few arsey ESF instructors write crap on the facebook page and you want a mass boycott of the ESF? I can guarantee that NONE of the ESF instructors in my area would be participating in that sort of rubbish and I certainly don't want to see people like that lose their livelihood over this sort of stupid internet spat. |
Perhaps, although it is the local authorities in your area, no doubt with the support of the ESF, that repeatedly prosecuted someone who has posted in this thread because, in the opinion of many, they didn't like the competition.
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miranda, I think the problem is that the internet is widely read, and is a black box thing - folks have a tendency to believe what they read on the internet, because it has been posted on an IT system. It kind of gives things a legitimacy that doesn't really exist. You see the problem on SH's when someone vaguely criticises a service, place, piece of equipment etc. esp. when it pertains to someone that is a regular on the site. All and sundry arise to defend the 'subject' concerned. I think that's just the internet, but if this IS what's happening (and I am not a FB person) then I would personally think that other ESF instructors may well hear about it in the coming season. In other words I think your concerns maybe well founded.
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miranda, It's not just the ESF that can have a few arsey Frenchies. Quite a few Frenchies are quite adept at this arseyness, even perfecting it. When it happens in a ski resort it's not surprising at all. When it happens in places like Val D'Isere or the 3V's it's a pity. For me, the experience of French arseyness in a resort just disappoints, and I tend to go elsewhere. Shame that great skiing is spoilt by bad attitudes, but I want to enjoy a ski holiday and not be p*ssed of by arsey Frenchies.
But I doubt the ESF woulld miss me, so why should they care? And that's why they don't.
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rob@rar, I assume you must mean Megeve. I don't know the ESF instructors there on a personal level at all, but I do know all the ones in La Giettaz and their spouses and their kids. No one's doing anything illegal or shady there so it would be impossible for them to prosecute anyone even if they'd wanted to. Instead they have repeatedly thanked us for introducing Brits and other nationalities to the village. If someone came and set up an 'English' ski school, would it bother them? Possibly, yes, possibly no - it would depend on how this affected their income and the income of their friends and families and I think that is completely normal and understandable reaction, frankly. If it affected their income but was not illegal, they couldn't do much about it though. However, everyone has an interest in seeing the village do well and we have had nothing but help and support from the village, even from hoteliers, chalet and apartment owners who could have been pissed off at our arrival.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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miranda, yes, I do mean Megeve, although whatever legal authority was involved will cover a wider area than that, I guess.
Good that you've had a positive response from everyone in the village, and the local ESF is grateful for the work you put their way,. More important in my view is that you are happy to put work their way as clearly your experience of their service is good enough for you to recommend them. I know some instructors who work for ESF schools and I rate them extremely highly and I'm more than happy to recommend them personally if anyone asks me. However, I'm not able to do the same for the ESF school in Arcs 1800 to anyone who uses my apartment there because I'm not confident that they would get a good service. So I recommend the ESI school there (Arc Adventures) and the Brit-run school (NewGen). Nothing would make me happier than for ESF in Arc 1800 to up it's game so that they were uniformly good, but until that happens I won't be recommending them.
I just wish the focus of all these debates was how we can improve the quality of guest experiences, rather than using not-fit-for-purpose regulations as a cover for anti-competitive practice (IMO).
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Several times when I've been to L2A there have been groups led around by http://www.skifriends.be/ Their leaders or whatever they are don't seem to have much idea about where to stop, etc and their skiing isn't up to much, they certainly look to be instructing too. Easiski is most uncomplimentary about them.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| More important in my view is that you are happy to put work their way as clearly your experience of their service is good enough for you to recommend them. (IMO). |
Yes, they are locals who have grown up in the place and love it - it is important to them to provide a good service. There is just one (OH's instructor who is a brilliant teacher for adults) that I absolutely would not recommend for our British guests - only speaks French and with the heaviest Savoyarde accent you can get and does the 'if I talk louder you'll understand me' thing Happy to send our adult French guests to him though, then we have our recommendations for kids, those who want to learn to ski elegantly, those who want to be pushed a bit... it does help knowing instructors personally and also getting guests' feedback on their experiences with them.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| miranda wrote: |
| spud, come on - a few arsey ESF instructors write crap on the facebook page and you want a mass boycott of the ESF? I can guarantee that NONE of the ESF instructors in my area would be participating in that sort of rubbish and I certainly don't want to see people like that lose their livelihood over this sort of stupid internet spat. |
No not because of this spat...this is just the tip of the iceberg.
In my experience the ESF are an arrogant business with a very poor attitude. Yes, there are good Instructors that work within their organisation, but there are far too many that rest on their laurals and don't actually care.
I personally think their standard of Instruction is not that good.
Too many cases of 'follow my leader'.
Also, I have seen a great deal of disinterest to British Customers.
Considering the Eurotest procedure, amonst others, in France for Ski Instructing, I find the whole thing laughable.
It is purely put in place to make it as difficult as possible for foreigners to work their.
Now that's fine by me... But I thought borders were open in Europe for everyone to work their.
There are plenty of French companies working in Britain with no restraints put in there way...just because they are foreign. That's how I, and some people with far more experience in the Ski Industry than me see them.
This is why i have a problem with the ESF and the French Ski Instructing Qualifications.
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| spud wrote: |
Considering the Eurotest procedure, amonst others, in France for Ski Instructing, I find the whole thing laughable.
It is purely put in place to make it as difficult as possible for foreigners to work their.
Now that's fine by me... But I thought borders were open in Europe for everyone to work their.
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Don't French people have to pass the test too?
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You know it makes sense.
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| Colin B wrote: |
| Several times when I've been to L2A there have been groups led around by http://www skifriends.be/ Their leaders or whatever they are don't seem to have much idea about where to stop, etc and their skiing isn't up to much, they certainly look to be instructing too. |
mmm, theres an Irish owned firm based in La Plagne who's leaders/hosts do seem to be doing more than they should at times.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| miranda wrote: |
| spud wrote: |
Considering the Eurotest procedure, amonst others, in France for Ski Instructing, I find the whole thing laughable.
It is purely put in place to make it as difficult as possible for foreigners to work their.
Now that's fine by me... But I thought borders were open in Europe for everyone to work their.
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Don't French people have to pass the test too? |
Yes... of course. But what has a Eurotest got to do with Ski Instructing? With respect...There are so many conversations made on the Eurotest that they don't need to be covered again. It's all been covered before....
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Poster: A snowHead
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| spud wrote: |
| With respect...There are so many conversations made on the Eurotest that they don't need to be covered again. It's all been covered before.... |
With respect... you still make comments like
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| I thought borders were open in Europe for everyone to work their. |
The Eurotest rules out loads of French people being instructors too. The borders of Europe are open to EU citizens, which is how I get to live and work in France, but I have to abide by the same laws and rules and taxes as French people - it has pros and cons for me but it is entirely my choice to live and work in France under the terms and conditions the French lay down. If I don't like it, I can work in the UK instead.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| miranda wrote: |
| spud wrote: |
| With respect...There are so many conversations made on the Eurotest that they don't need to be covered again. It's all been covered before.... |
With respect... you still make comments like
| Quote: |
| I thought borders were open in Europe for everyone to work their. |
The Eurotest rules out loads of French people being instructors too. The borders of Europe are open to EU citizens, which is how I get to live and work in France, but I have to abide by the same laws and rules and taxes as French people - it has pros and cons for me but it is entirely my choice to live and work in France under the terms and conditions the French lay down. If I don't like it, I can work in the UK instead. |
Tell me why the French won't allow British owned Ski Schools in France to become training centres then, and thus train up Ski Instructors through their system? They will only allow Foreigners with, if you're very lucky, a level 2 with Eurotest.
If you are going to make it a level playing field for everyone, then make it so...surely?
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 20-11-12 20:03; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| miranda wrote: |
| Don't French people have to pass the test too? |
Yes they do. The more important question is, IMO, is it the right test? Is the test set at the right level to ensure the proper safety of the member of the public who buys the service? In this particular case, what skills, knowledge and experience do you need to escort guests around the easy pistes in a resort, in safety? IMO, there is no way that you need to be a fully qualified instructor to safely manage that task. I don't have a problem with appropriate regulation of ski hosts, including a mandatory training course or even an assessed qualification. In fact I'd welcome it. But it's mad to suggest that the level required for that task must be a fully certified instructor.
If there's so much demand for a service like that why don't the ESF offer ski escorts who will show resort guests around the resort for a modest fee? Great opportunity to up-sell some lessons!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
I think it was last seaosn, or maybe the season before Les Belles Pintes (which I like to stop at because it's comfortable, convenient and has free wifi) reduced the price of their hot chocolate by 40 cents a couple of weeks in to the season. It was still expensive, but for me it made the difference, |
Does the 40 cents cover the cost of the mountain of cream you like to put on it? 
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Spyderman,
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| miranda wrote: |
Megamum this is a really old conversation on snowHeads and I don't usually bother to post on such threads... but 80 euros a day on the hill?!
If you really would prefer to ski in France, don't go to the expensive places. As rob says, either go to a cheaper place in a big resort, or go to a cheaper resort.
Espresso € 1,30; Large Coffee € 2; Glass of Wine € 2; Bottle of Leffe € 3; Pint of Heineken € 4,50; Homemade Burger and Fries € 6; Panini € 4. Obviously they have lots of other stuff but these are standard Brit selections. They are genuinely tasty products as well, made and served by a really lovely and friendly couple.
You really don't need to spend 80 euros on a family of 4 on the hill in France. |
A French ( or any) family would spend that and some in Newquay in the summer, lunch , ice creams and a cream tea would be over £100 , and lunch would be very average.
Tourist rates are always more.
I really don't think 80 euros is all that, cost more than that in Pizza express, which is not up a mountain with fantastic views. To much time is taken up with this.
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| spud wrote: |
Tell me why the French won't allow British owned Ski Schools in France to become training centres then, and thus train up Ski Instructors through their system? They will only allow Foreigners with, if you're very lucky, a level 2 with Eurotest.
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You don't need to have the Eurotest, you can have Test Technique and BASI Level 2 to work in France for a ski school as a Stagiere.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I don't think there's a huge difference across the Alps country to country with regard to pricing of food & drink on the hill, France & Switzerland are for sure the most expensive. Where the huge variation is what you get for the money, for 20 euros in France compared to spending 20 euros in Italy the quality of the meal in Italy will be far superior. A Hot Chocolate in Italy is proper melted Chocolate not the crap out of a machine that you get in France. Expresso in Italy, never paid more than 1 euro, decent coffee served with a glass of water.
I've pretty much given up on France, I don't mind paying if the quality is there, but I hate feeling I'm being ripped off. I loved every minute of my lunch in Courmayeur on the mountain this year, worth every cent of the 200 euros for two of us.
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| Spyderman wrote: |
| spud wrote: |
Tell me why the French won't allow British owned Ski Schools in France to become training centres then, and thus train up Ski Instructors through their system? They will only allow Foreigners with, if you're very lucky, a level 2 with Eurotest.
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You don't need to have the Eurotest, you can have Test Technique and BASI Level 2 to work in France for a ski school as a Stagiere. |
For a British owned Ski School?
I know you can be a trainee with a French Ski School, with Test Technique.
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FAQ
