 Poster: A snowHead
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.... ohh and also unless you start your own school or whatever there is NO onwards salary increases - you can't work anymore than a certain number of hours a year so in 30 years time when I am nearing retirement from this career of mine I shall still be earning (allowing for inflation changes of course) the same amount per annum which is pretty c**p - school teachers salaries increases with experience don't they!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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^ Yip. Ski instructing in France is seen as a professional career. Something I have said all long. The bar is set high (for everyone) - and anyone who has jumped through all the hoops has clearly earned the right to make a full-time living from ski teaching.
There will however always be market demand in other countries for lesser qualified instructors to take kids or beginner classes etc.
It is unrealistic for many reasons (apart from under the French system) to assume that everyone teaching skiing is going to be doing it as a full time career ?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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yep agreed on those points above Haggis_Trap
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Out of interest Steve, in france who takes all the beginner kids groups? Surely all those ESF ladies (some really old ones aswell!) dont have the same quals as the other instructors? Knowing the french they probably have an official title of "ski nanny" or something like that.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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France is not the only place people make careers out of instructing, I know plenty of people in the States who have made it their living, the same in NZ, Japan and Chile. The key is to find the right schools that respect qualified instructors and pay them properly, many, especially in the States, do not. This said, I've only been instructing for 5 years, I'm not convinced it's what I want to do long term yet, changing hemispheres twice a year is fun at the moment, but I'm sure I'll want some stability eventually.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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skifluff, This info is way out of date but i had the following in 2004 for French instructors, they use stagiares and monitrices for the kids mainly... YOu can be a trainee and work with kids and i think the old assistants, monirices etc are still allowed to work in the kindergardens....
510 4% qualification supérieure Diplôme d'ETAT - BEES 1er Degré Ski Alpin 510
2211 17% nievaux differents Stagiaire Preformation 2'211
960 7% Aspirant Moniteur 960
8545 64% Moniteur National 8545
345 3% Assistant Moniteur 354
106 1% Monitrices d'enfants 106
60 0% Attestation de classification 60
600 4% Honoraires retrétés 600
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Back to the OP.
I have experience of ski schools in Canada and Austria, so taking one point at a time:
1) Only getting paid for the hours you work - was the norm in Canada, but with a small retainer and subsidised accommodation. In Austria, where I've worked, instructors 'on contract' receive a fixed wage while 'occasionals' receive for hours worked. NB, if there is no work instructing, the guys on contract shovel snow, put up and take down the kids' area each day, help out in the rental shop etc. to get as close to 35 hours as possible.
2) Lowest rate in resort? - minimum wage applies in Austria, so new instructors are paid this. Instructors can earn more based on level of qualification, number of languages, popularity (reflected in re-bookings, course extentions), flexibility and reliability (e.g. willing to start a class at 8.30, or on a Saturday, or to teach infants for a week). Also paid more if taking one-to-one lessons rather than groups and paid more if supervising other instructors. Instructors also occasionally receive tips, which snow shovellers rarely get. Austrian ski schools also usually provide accommodation, either for free or heavily subsidised.
3) & 4) Expect instructors to pay for ski pass and rent/clean uniform. Never had to do this, but I assume that it happens somewhere for it to have been raised. Another post raised the issue of drinking/socialising whilst in uniform. In Canada this was not allowed. In Austria, no issues socialising in uniform after work up until 6pm, but drunkeness or inappropriate behaviour not tolerated.
5) Work whenever required - see 2) above.
6) Expect you to buy all equipment - pretty standard, I think. In Austria, the ski schools and rental shops are often very closely linked. I've always been able to get my skis serviced for free and take out any skis I've fancied; but I also repay the favour by helping out in the shop on a Friday afternoon when hundreds of sets of rental gear are being returned.
7) Health Insurance? I assume OP means Private health insurance, which I've never heard of a ski school paying. Your own personal travel insurance (which you'll need when skiing in your free time) and EHIC would cover you anyway.
Do ski schools pay a fair wage? I suppose it comes down to supply and demand. There is little demand for high level technical coaching in the average resort ski school. 90% of customers are 'holiday skiers' who either want to learn or improve, and are willing to pay €100 - 200 for the pleasure. On the supply side, there are plenty of instructors from across Europe who are willing to work for the minimum wage plus accommodation, so that really sets the level.
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| skifluff wrote: |
It will be interesting to see how the new legislation in switzerland will affect aforementioned greedy ski schools. I know that they will now require (in the valais at least) at least 20% of the hours taught in any given day to be taught by a holder of a swiss patent (top swiss qual), and that you can employ only 4 non-patents per patent. I am not sure on this but I think it may also be that at least 50% of the staff must have the ISIA stamp (obviously the patents are included in this). The wages of a patent are comparable to an ISTD in france. From what I saw last season these laws will be rigourously enforced by the commune.
Gapyahs will no longer be offered jobs teaching small kids at half term for low money, coz legally the schools wont have enough patent holders to employ them. The patents wont take this work either, ISIAs will be more in demand, but it will be harder for the L2s starting out. Their really isnt more than a handful of british swiss patents. The british schools will gradually lose their identity and become swiss, and will have to adopt swiss ideals regarding wages etc. The end of the great gapyear gravy train? |
Got any updates on how this is panning out in the Valais? Are ISIA's now in more demand and getting better hourly rates and more hours?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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My observations this season:
marginally less gappies around, but not as few as I thought there might be, just split between more companies offering gapyear courses. Lots of people paying to do ISIA and L4 training. wages actually LOWER this season for some isia and L2, patentes are roughly earning the same.
Not much work for those paying for training, and not enough work for the patentes, by their standards. Seen some bad lessons that will ruin the rep of a ski school in the long run. Few happy instructors. Turns out that ISIA doesnt really count for anything round these parts.
The 2 local "red" schools going about business as normal it seems. All british schools have taken on too many instructors. The quality of the british instructors has gone down.
The mega-rich still abound, spending lots of moolah. Get in with them and you are sorted.
If you want hours, learn russian. hardly any russian speakers, all fully booked, I dont think russians can get permits to work in switzerland easily.
I'll stick to my view that people should forget about working for the british schools in verbier if you want to pay for a season with money you earn teaching. And also forget about paying for training.
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Just to get back to this, actually we did have to pay for lift passes in Saalbach this season. Previously the lift company had given instructors free passes, but someone in one of the schools (I don't know which) had been playing games and giving out passes to mates - so now we all have to pay. Fortunately the passes are discounted massively anyway, and the ski school payed half as well. So for 16 days I had to pay €70, the guys out for the whole season payed just over €100.
Not too bad I guess, but I was still pretty pissed off tbh. OTOH I earned over €700 (inc tips) for 12 days work, which made me feel a bit better 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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skifluff,
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It will be interesting to see how the new legislation in switzerland will affect aforementioned greedy ski schools. I know that they will now require (in the valais at least) at least 20% of the hours taught in any given day to be taught by a holder of a swiss patent (top swiss qual), and that you can employ only 4 non-patents per patent. I am not sure on this but I think it may also be that at least 50% of the staff must have the ISIA stamp (obviously the patents are included in this). The wages of a patent are comparable to an ISTD in france. From what I saw last season these laws will be rigourously enforced by the commune.
Gapyahs will no longer be offered jobs teaching small kids at half term for low money, coz legally the schools wont have enough patent holders to employ them. The patents wont take this work either, ISIAs will be more in demand, but it will be harder for the L2s starting out. Their really isnt more than a handful of british swiss patents. The british schools will gradually lose their identity and become swiss, and will have to adopt swiss ideals regarding wages etc. The end of the great gapyear gravy train?
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The Swiss law changes were introduced in 2008. Perhaps the changes in Gapyah numbers and instructor wages you're seeing this winter are for other reasons?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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agreed, although the laws always take a few seasons to settle down in terms of the "on ground" situation. Like I said, I thought there would be less gappies coz of the uni tuition fee rises next year, people would avoid taking a gap year this year. Seems like I was wrong, there are almost as many around. Also thought that credit crunch would reign in all those rich daddies spending. Wrong again, it really has no effect.
There is definetly less work around, strong swiss franc/economic crisis etc has seen to that. Just cant see how all this is sustainable for the ski schools, a lot will be losing their experienced instructors. They will end up with a team of newly qualified L2s and disinterested local patentes. Some patentes end up training the BASI gappies, to make up their hours. Now, I know good skiing is good skiing, but the terminology and application between BASI and swisssnowsports can be markedly different. Lots of L1 fails abound this year.
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skifluff, Interesting your comments regarding the ISIA. I've been pondering outlay/reward ratio in making the push to finish mine, and my main justification was that it is still useful for working in Switzerland.
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You know it makes sense.
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it probably is in other resorts, just not so much in verbier. Also, its a stepping stone to ISTD, which does make a difference.
If you want to work in switzerland long term i would recommend transferring to the swiss system.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Skied with an Italian instructor today ( Verbier) who has his Swiss patente. He told me as from next year the top Instructors must have a federal level ( I understand this is an extra dissertation and presentation ). Patente ( he told me) will not be permitted to work off piste! A ski school will need x amount of federal, x amount of patente to mentor lower level Instructors with ISIA. Interesting !!
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FAQ
