Long run burn - how to minimise

A snowHead

flicksta, 21 minutes if also fine for very fit and strong people. A majority of exercisers spend longer on exercise than they need from the physiological aspect. Often because it is recreation which has an exercise element and that is an excellent way to do exercise.

A snowHead

john wells,so it was you that had a piece published in that most august of dailys,The Sun wink

(and you thought no one had spotted it Embarassed

)
Seriously,I am intrigued by the 21min workout.This would seem to fly in the face of most perceived fitness wisdom(and most of what many people practise?)You know the sort of thing;20mins a day that leaves you breathless.Every other day strength training.Endless pounding of the streets/jogging machine.
Are you able to give any insight/guidance on this regime?And do you consider it applicable to our particular sporting needs?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

You need to Login to know who's really who.

i agree flicksta!

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

the best wat to minimise long run burn is to ski at xscape, no chance of it there !

You'll need to Register first of course.

flicksta, Royal, I would guess that you guys do not understand high intensity training.

One of the winners of Mr. Universe trained once in 10 days.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

snowskisnow, the sequence is overload, recovery, adaptation in that order. The greater the level of the overload (NOT the duration), the greater the adaptation. If you train or do any physical activity at high intensity you curtail any adaptation which might be going on. The recovery and adaptation is whole body and not specific to the muscles exercised so split routines inhibit the adaptation.

For most people intense training should not be repeated more than once in two, three or four days - the limitation is how long it takes a person to recover and adapt. The older you are the longer it takes. The more intense the workout, the longer it takes. The fitter you are the longer it takes as you are able to stress the body to a higher degree which takes longer to recover and adapt. This is why a workout should be as short as possible - to minimise the stress on the body and thereby minimise the recovery and adaptation time.

For most people a really intense workout once a week will see substantial improvements. Twice a week is often better but once a week will see good results.

If you increase muscle strength, the body increases its cardio-vascular ability to keep in balance.

If you do full range of motion exercises including antagonistic muscles you do not need to do any stretching.

If you want endurance you need to increase the mitochondria in the muscles to utilise more oxygen but you do better if you build the muscles first. This endurance training can also be high intensity.

A great deal of the advice given by much of the fitness industry, the government and many medics is rubbish and misleading. Most of this advice is based on having achieved results in the past by such methods and, yes, you will achieve results. You will get better, safer and quicker results if you follow what there is of the science.

After all it is free

john wells, where can we see what one physically needs to perform during those 21 minutes?

I'd like to see anyone train for endurance using 21 minute sessions. Also - it is difficult to train all the multiple body parts in only a couple of sessions per week. But it is true that a recent study did find high gains in increasing muscle mass using small numbers of sets.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

slikedges, for general fitness rather than sports specific - it depends on what equipment you have available to you. I would always favour machines as they require less skill and are safer to use for the general public. You can exercise the whole body by just working on the major muscles - if the major muscles are not strong it is a little pointless working on the minor muscles - improving the major muscles also improves the neighbouring minor muscles through a training effect which is not fully understood but it works.

In its simplest form you can use just 4 compound machines - a leg press, a chest press, a pull-down or a seated row, a shoulder press. This workout only takes 12 minutes (maximum 2 minutes per machine plus 1 minute to get between machines).

I favour more isolation exercises which are probably more effective (but not by much) - leg extension, leg curl, pullover machine (one of the greatest machines but there are very few about), arm cross (pec deck), lateral raise, tricep extension, bicep curl. 7 exercises - maximum 21 minutes. The bicep and tricep machines could be replaced with compound machines where the arms fail first.

Another very effective 7 machine workout uses the 4 compound machines plus a rotary torso, a lumbar machine, an abdominal machine. This focuses more on the trunk of the body.

All of the exercises are done in one set going to failure using slow controlled movements - no fast movements (less effective and less safe) - keeping the muscles under load all of the time; no resting, no cheating - use sufficient weight that you cannot complete an addition rep within two minutes. Progress from workout to workout by increasing the reps achieved or by increasing the weight.

Exercise is very simple (but not easy) and the complexity which is often recommended just confuses people and is not very effective anyway.

Increased strength increases endurance even before you start on more specific endurance work.

The strength high intensity training is well proven - endurance high intensity training looks as though it might be the same but there has been far less research on endurance.

snow reports

john wells, thanks, very enlightening. I can see the reasoning behind it. The going to failure, slow movements, no resting and no cheating are fairly well accepted these days aren't they, if not actually often practised? However, with the aim of maintaining intensity over this shortened period of exercise, I take it it is crucial to take no more than one minute to get between machines? Hence the whole programme must be designed such that it is completable to failure over the 21 minutes? And does it matter what order you use the machines in? How many reps would you count as sufficiently slow over a 2 minute period?

I'm interested to know how much cardiovascular benefit is derived. How does it compare with targeted cardiovascular training? I'd expect that muscle overload and adaptation to this would always increase cardiovascular ability too, but maybe by relatively less than targeted cardiovascular training.

slikedges, you are not using pre-exhaustion techniques so moving quickly between machines is not required it just takes about a minute to get off one machine and get settled on the next. Pre-exhaustion ideally requires maximum about 4 seconds between exercises anyway.

The order of the machines is not too important but the usual advice is to start with the larger muscles first. Also it is best to work in pairs of antagonistic after agonistic.

The number of reps is determined by the rep speed - the normal Nautilus protocol is 4 seconds up, 1 second pause and 4 seconds return and aiming to fail between 8 and 12 reps. The SuperSlow protocol is 10 seconds up, pause 1 to 2 seconds and 10 seconds back, aiming for failure in 3 to 6 reps. Just focusing on slow and controlled means that the rep timing depends on the range of motion of the machine, total time for short range would be about 12 - 15 seconds, long range can be 24 seconds. The time under load per exercise is ideally between 30 seconds and 90 seconds before muscle fibre recovery kicks in but two minutes is ok.

The link between high intensity strength training and cardio-vascular fitness is not clearly researched but we do know that there is a link. It is possible to get very good improvements in cardio-vascular ability if the intensity of the strength training is sufficiently high and, yes, for this it would be best to have a minmum time between machines. The standard measures for raised pulse rate for 15 minutes have all been worked out doing traditional low intensity training and can be misleading.

Slow controlled movements to failure with one set is certainly well accepted by the scientists but is little practised by the fitness industry and the exercisers.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

john wells, to be fair flicksta has raised the issue of "fit for what", which is valid in the context of "holiday" skiing. The "overload principle" aka "adaptation" works on many different levels, and it's not true to say that "The greater the level of the overload (NOT the duration), the greater the adaptation."

In fact running for long distances overloads the muscles and forces them to adapt to long-distance running. Conversely, overloading muscles during weightlifting will force them to adapt to lifting heavier weight.

To that extent, there is value in flicksta's comments

A snowHead

I cant believe this thread is still going!

The only thing that has been learnt is that its not an exact science, there is no definitive answer on how to get fit, just do whatever suits you best.

In fact we dont even know what causes the pain...

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I remember there was a similar thread on fitness and training a couple of years ago, and that was the first time I'd encountered john wells endorsement of slow, high intensity exercise to failure.

As a result of that, I tried it and I can confirm that it is very effective.

I should also say that, although the idea of a 21 minute workout sounds attractive, that this sort of training is very hard work.

Whilst spending about 2 minutes on a particular exercise doesn't sound very demanding, exercise to failure quickly makes you reassess your attitude to time. Two minutes can seem like an eternity!

Don't knock it 'til you've tried it.

You need to Login to know who's really who.

Acacia, I think the system john wells promotes has good value for building muscle strength.

Whether it builds muscular endurance is another question.

But as a means to train cardio-vascular endurance it doesn't do the job and so it must not be considered as a replacement for cardio workouts.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Manda,

Don't worry. I do a lot of CV work as well.

That's not much fun, either.

You'll need to Register first of course.

how do 'cross trainers' fair in ski work outs ?

i love training on them but is using one going to help me stay on the slope longer ?

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Royal, if you use the cross trainer properly you should feel it in your quads.

Now while we've established on another thread that if your technique is excellent you shouldn't get too much burn in this area, for the rest of us mere mortals, strength in the thighs is pretty useful.

Most people use the cross trainer badly, imho - you need to keep your feet as flat as possible (dependent on the flex in your own achilles) on the footplates (for want of a better word ...) rather than balancing on the balls of your feet as you would on a bike.

After all it is free

Frosty,

zammo, Yup - flat feet, I put mine at the rear of the pads and drop into a slight crouch. Kills the quads if you get low Confused

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

zammo, Scarpa, good tips on the feet - really does give a far more searching exercise - funny how this is never explained at the gyms .... thanks for that - 6 weeks to skiing and the fitness levels are improving (albeit from a pretty low level)

snow reports

doogo, I just posted on another thread - on a ski exercise thread I found this one. Do light weight squats in front of a step and from the low position jump onto the step as you extend the legs, then down again - all the time absorbing any impact. Will be great for building jump turn strength.

Wow - really interesting thread, wonder if some of you guys can help a newbie like me?

Am training for 1/2 marathon in early April, (running 3/4 times per week, building up steadily - c. 30k per week at the moment) so hoping I should be in pretty good shape CV-wise for my 2 weeks skiing in Jan/Feb. I just worry is that all this road work might not be the best thing for skiing strength? Confused

Any suggestions for exercises I could add to my routine (at home or gym?) to help me get the most out of my holidays Very Happy

? [Specifically, am hoping to do a good few days off-piste instruction in Jan and don't want to be let down for want of core strength].

You know it makes sense.

wizlyn has any of your roadwork been on hills? If you have hill near you that is 200-400 metres long with a constant gradient then do repetitions up the hill building up until you can do 10 to 12 per session. This can be done at night which is useful at this time of year, it will also make a change from the usual grind of distance. these hill sessions will help your skiing and you 1/2 marathon time.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

riverman, thanks for the suggestion - sounds ideal! Am actually tending to do my long runs along the thames towpath, so will need to find myself a hill somewhere sometime soon in any case! Could be just the job though for livening up the dreaded midweek treadmill session. Any views on target gradients?

A snowHead

wizlyn if you have not been doing hills then start on something gentle and then build up in gradient and distance of hill. Make sure you have warmed up before you start on the hill reps at least a 15 min gentle run before and after.

A snowHead

wizlyn,

I ran a marathon last year (my first) and found that running lots of miles was not, on its own, particularly good for explosive exercise (e.g., skiing bumps or steeps):

1. I lost sprinting speed (not that I had much to start with!)
2. my stride length shortened
3. despite lots of stretching I got very tight (hips/calves)

I'd recommend that you fit some interval/speed work in to your programme. If you are running 30k per week now then you have no worries about lasting a 20k race so you can focus on speed as well as endurance. It's harder with a marathon - the extra distance means it's tough to even get enough miles in without finding time for interval training.

You should of course be doing loads of stretching but I guess you knew that already...

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Wow! I just read this whole thread and it took me about 20 minutes! Some great stuff (and interesting debate) from some obviously well informed contributors.

I found that last year my ‘quad burn’ was reduced compared to the year before as my technique seemed a little better, and I did do some pre-trip training to try and build up my legs a bit.

This year I have been doing 40 minutes mixed X-trainer / Stepper three times a week in the hope that this will help even more. I’m sure it must be helping from a cardio perspective as well as my HR runs at around 145-150 for at least 30 minutes each time. I don’t seem to lose any weight, but then , in the words of Dr. Hook “…I’ll never be Robert Redford, ‘cause I’m much too fond of Beer….” Frequent refreshment stops look likely to remain a key part of my skiing programme. Laughing

You need to Login to know who's really who.

jedster, definitely agree with your observations! Seem to stutter along with baby strides and elastic calves these days! I guess a 1/2 is much closer to a 10k than a full marathon, so I can afford to mix it up and do more speed (and hill!) work...

riverman Have earmarked Thursday for my first hill session - i'll let you know how i get on!

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Some valid training points here but im not too sure about the benefits of HIT for ski fitness. Good for building mass and size but i think your kidding yourself if you think 21 minutes of exercise a week will give you good cardio fitness. High intesity interval training will be good for cardio work. Mimicking the intensity and duration of skiing in exercise will work best.

Save the HIT weight training for the summer holiday and stick to compound free weights not isolation on machines. Also to win Mr olympia there was a lot more going on than 21 minutes a week in the gym!!

You'll need to Register first of course.

wizlyn Dont over do it on a first session

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

I think that a lot of the body building quotes regarding training every 10 days may be concerned with one muscle group being worked as the main focus of exercise and not that the person only trained once in that time. A lot of techniques involve training eg chest one day, triceps the next - then a recovery day etc. For example, I do 6 seperate triceps exercises in my workout to target the complex range of this muscle group (5 of these with free weights) as well as some cardio, a little leg work and a swim. That makes a 1.5 hour session for every main muscle group which will to some extent inhibit mass gain whilst building endurance. For my sports I need low weight but good explosive power and also stamina which I am pretty crap at.

After all it is free

Sorry to drag this away from skiing but the technique referred to was a principle devised by Mike Mentzer, its worth a read as some of the principles are quite different to the mainstream but when you break it down to the mechanics its sound and actually works.

Scarpa if you are trying to build explosive power why the hell are you doing 6 tricep exercises? complex muscle group? its got three heads and is used to straighten your arm. Larger compund exercises in a push direction will build far more powerful muscles. Not knocking what you are doing as dont know what sport you are training for but unless its competitve bodybuilding you dont need to do what you are doing.

PM me and i can point you in the direction of some good reading and points that may be far more suited to your requirements

kruked, Cheers - I do a wide range of exercise styles as my main sports are rock and ice climbing. Spending hours hacking away with ice axes above my head in sub zero temps really needs some stamina but then explosive power is required for eg. getting through overhanging sections. Was calling tri's complex more in comparison to biceps as that is a much easier muscle to train.

It's only during winter that I use the gym. Glad to get any further info on training ta.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

kruked, Mike Mentzer was an advocate and wrote a book but high intensity training originated as far as I know with Arthur Jones. One of the champions trained once in 10 days - a single session, whole body training at one go.

Scarpa, although split routines are popular they do under achieve. As soon as you do another exercise session you impede the benefits of the earlier session. Recovery and adaptation are whole body functions not specific to the skeletal muscles exercised.

Help!!

Long run burn - how to minimise

snowHeads Forum Index >>> Bend ze Knees