skimottaret, I have passed your questions on to BASI.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
jjc, It's also interesting to hear your thoughts on equipment given the number of candidates that pass or fail by a few tenths or 100's of a second.
Personally I like the idea of a 'measured' test but I suspect that the 'level' is set too high, at least from the perspective of someone in a similar situation to skimottaret.
Of course this also leads on to the value of the ISIA as a stand alone qualification, rather than as a stepping stone to ISTD status. The current number of 'active' i.e. paid up ISIA's in BASI would seem to answer that.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
JJC pretty much spot on. Hunger to pass, competiviness and mental toughness to get over the days when things aren't going so well are biggies. In the grand scheme of things for a sports profesional 160 odd points isnt a hellish ask. SkiMottaret is very knowlegable and knows the pros and cons inside out ....we brits aren't time / no. of attempts limited like the French and get to go to tests all over the place (some occasionally on pretty flat pistes and shallow glacier terrain) so we can't feel too hard done by. I don't have a cartepro but think there are ample opportunities outside France for work if L4 isn't up your street.
JJC - Craig For someone who claims that writing is not their strong point you made a pretty good job of the last posting. AND, dare I say it, a more rounded tone?
Your views and information are greatly appreciated and I am right with you all the way down. Until you get to age and levels of instruction and even then I'm 'almost' right with you.
The examples which you cite are not 'like for like' with ski racing. While running (all forms) and swimming may have similar demands to recreational or instructor skiing they are not 'like comparators' with a dynamic sport such as ski racing. To find a suitable comparator you would have to consider professional football, rugby or basketball and in those activities one would discover that players over the age of 35 are the exception and beyond 40 almost unheard of. The Eurotest is measured against an elite athlete therefore when considering research statistics one must ensure that the statistics relate to elite athletes. Linford Christie is the oldest Olympic 100m champion at 32 and I am pretty certain that a sprinter who qualified as a 21 year old for the Olympic final in Seoul (1988) in a time of 10.00 secs. will be be over the moon if he runs in London and clocks 10.3 at the age of 45! Even if he did train just as hard his reaction time to the gun would between at least 0.3 slower. The reality is that elite athletes continue to train just as hard until they retire and they retire because their times/performance are going backwards. Age does make a difference and if you recognise that sex makes a difference then it is not unreasonable to make an allowance for age. If you did go down the re-testing route as you suggested it would not be unreasonable to allow for diminishing performance, remember there is a difference between performance and skill
Levels of instruction. People in all walks of life get a job interview because of their qualifications, most people regard qualification as equaling knowledge. People get the job because the qualification's suggest that they have the knowledge and at the interview they seemed to be an 'all right' sort of person. People keep the job or in skiing are re-hired the next season because they have displayed the ability to apply the knowledge. It is the application of knowledge which matters not the knowledge itself. Your allusion to university degree's is a classic example, very often people with 1st class degrees just cannot do the job (I know I've worked with them). Similarly there are some Level 2's who I would prefer to teach my parents rather than some ISTD's (there are some ISTD's that I would not have passed at even ISIA teaching level!) Remember there is a difference between performance and skill, in this case the skill is teaching
Skimottaret - I know a 3 or 4 people who have been successful first time. BUT they made absolutely certain that they were skiing better than the required standard before they entered the Eurotest.
Careful what you say about the BASI TD, Susie Berry OBE. Susie takes no prisoners!
2 more things. I would echo what Craig wrote, there is a need for BASI to revisit / realign the Eurotest. However this will only happen if members make representation to BASI. BASI is a members organisation, the Board should be doing what the members want.
Finally - several posts coming from me over the next few days. All related to "Is the Eurotest an appropriate test?"
Spread the word, the more who read this thread the better the debate.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
i am not trying to antagonise here. Great posts from everyone. And yes please I would love to see and apply the fitness training regime, I need it and am up for it!
But lets look at the facts as presented.
"at 45 there is on average a 3% decline in sprinting 4-4.5% long distance running and 2% swimming (this explains why when I am flat out in front crawl I still get overtaken by 70 year old women doing breast stoke and having a chat) and by 55 all round fitness will have decreased on average by 4% from peak.".
Therefore a 45 to 55 year old male has decreased performance of around 3 to 4%.
That is good enough for the professional qualification to have an allowance for women who are deemed around 4% slower than men at peak age.
Yet no allowance for aged men who are proved to be suffering the same disadvantage by agreed statistics (and proven ones) in the same ball park.
So sexist AND ageist.
Therefore 45 to 55 males should be allowed a bye of + 3 to 4% moe than now, around 21 to 22%.
Ie normal womens times.
Women should be adjusted further by the same amount.
skimottaret, We are just coming to the end of our first year operating as JJC. It will take a couple of years to really make an impact as we have to change the entire way people are approaching the test and this definitely wont happen in year one. We had one 1st time pass this season, ill admit she came from a racing background and mainly required a few finishing touches. We also have three or four guys not from a racing background who I believe should pass very soon. They have been very close in their first one or two attempts (1 second to 4 hundredths) but need to get over the big day nerves, they passed several times in our mock tests. This is without them adhering to our ideals because they are not all on the right equipment or in as good shape as they could be due to time and finance. We can’t ask them to re buy equipment because it is unrealistic and we cant ensure their fitness if they book on to the camp only several weeks before it starts. It’s incredibly impressive they can ski at that level without these factors being right, with them they would undoubtedly pass. To change the whole culture and way the ET is approached is a huge task but i feel we are ideally placed to try and help start moving things in the right direction. As far as injuries go luckily not a single person was badly injured, we of course had a few niggles. Unfortunately injuries are part of the game and your risks are going to increase when trying to ski bumps, variable terrain or race and I have heard of many acl tears and other injuries from tiny crashes whilst almost standing still. I can relate with you on this, with fear of repeating myself I have had 5 knee ops. I think you have to weigh up the risk factors and decide if the rewards are worth it.
Quote:
Why do pass results swing from a few percent to 10's of percent at each ET? are the candidates that different?
This is a great question and one I asked last season. The answer I got given by the French openers is that the candidates are in fact quite different. When large amounts pass on a day in France its often because a college that offers ski instructing as a course or ski instructing with another profession has entered their students. You really can tell when its one of those days because the professionalism, the equipment and everything I mentioned before is spot on. When you see 30 pass from these colleges many of them are comfortably in first time and it isn’t luck. If we want to see our candidates doing the same we need to train and approach it in the same way.
Quote:
I take your point about trying to ski consistently to your calibration but hearing that openers get told to slow down so that a reasonable amount get through on the second run doesnt like a consistent fair method of testing skill and is open to abuse and rigging.
I must stress this happened once to me and it’s the only time I have seen or heard of it happen other than Ross Green who supposedly hadn’t done great at calibration and then came back on form (this is what I heard I don’t know if this is fact) 99% of the time our calibrated times all work out with in tenths of a second. I was told to slow down because I did a BAD job. It was explained to me by the chief that I am employed to ensure fairness and to ski to my calibrated time and not to try and win a race. I think they are trying to combat it further by using the fastest two times now which should make it a little easier. Also as you pointed out Susie Berry is at most tests to ensure fairness and that the tests are being run properly. She is a highly respected person in the ski racing industry, knows the rules inside out and does a great job. There is no chance of rigging whilst she is about. I know she does write about each test so I am sure you could get a report if you ask for one. If anything in my experience they always try to ensure the test is fair and it is always discussed if we have achieved this in our de brief after the test and what can we do better. I have even been at cancelled tests because the conditions wouldn’t have made for fair testing.
david@mediacopy, You would be amazed the difference a ski can make. So as you say when it comes down to hundreths, tenths and seconds if you can make up seconds by ensuring your equipment is working right its crazy not to.
for those asking about fitness If you pm me your email address ill send you through our fitness package.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Bindingcheck,
Quote:
Until you get to age and levels of instruction and even then I'm 'almost' right with you.
I will reply tomorrow and hopefully you will be right with me
After all it is free
After all it is free
The most interesting current thread on snowHeads especially, for me as a lawyer, the implications of anti-discrimination laws and the application of European law to cross-border professional qualifications within the EC. Aside from those legal aspects, I struggle with the concept of being able to ski extremely fast as a pre-condition to qualifying as an instructor: it's like saying that you have to play to international concert standard to qualify as a music teacher - which of course you don't, and there are extremely few world class performing musicians who are also good teachers.
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Hurtle, this is why debating the detail is a waste of time and I'm not wasting my time with it. It's like making the extent to which certain types of advertising affect sales the main subject of discussion in a position paper on the public health implications of cigarettes. A discussion on how to pass is a sideline in this thread. Virtually no one without a vested interest (or a pass ) thinks it's either a useful or appropriate test for a ski instructor (at its current level) or fair to the youthfully challenged.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Fri 8-04-11 17:11; edited 1 time in total
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The title of this thread is pan-European, consequently and regrettably it will be impossible to separate politics from the debate. In the long term it is quite likely that the purpose behind the Eurotest will be exposed and the Eurotest will become defunct. As an indicator one should read the opinion of Advocate General Sharpstone when she found against France (SNSMF) : http://www.lex.unict.it/eurolabor/en/documentation/altridoc/opinion/c200-08.pdf
While some might suggest that she was overgenerous to France in some of her Gebhard deliberations one can readily deduce that she does think that there is something distinctly whiffy about the Eurotest.
It is clear that this thread has 4 perspectives.
1) How to pass the Test. We should be grateful to those who are giving of their time to help people prepare for a successful test. My interpretation of their posts is not that they trenchant in maintaining the Test in perpetuity rather that they are saying - here are the rules, the rules are being fairly applied and here is how to be successful.
2) The Eurotest is ideal. Though low in number their opinion is that it ensures that only the very best race trained skiers are able to become fully qualified instructors. They have the opinion that you cannot be a competent instructor unless you have shown that over a period of less than 60 seconds you are capable of performing at the level of an elite racer.
3) The Eurotest should not exist. Their opinion is that the Test is irrelevant to the work of an ski instructor. AG Sharpstones opinion has clearly shown that the test is not necessary to the work of a snowboard instructor.
4) The rules of the test are inappropriate. Their opinion is that while the current reasoning behind the test (safety) is flawed the consequences of training for a speed test are valuable.
The purpose of debate is allow the opportunity to express opinion and listen to opinion. The consequence of debate is that people can then legitimately shift their position. However as we form our opinion we must take account of legislation. Currently as a consequence of a derogation from the EU law which applies to professional qualification the FEMPS Nations can ban migrants who have not passed the Eurotest.
HURTLE: As a lawyer your skills will be of greater significance than the skiing skills of everyone else - if you are up for the challenge.
SLIKEDGES: I know many ISTD's who have either passed the test or who have been exempted who think that the Eurotest is inappropriate.
BEANIE1: With respect to Skimottaret's concerns the questions that should have been asked were - how did BASI vote at the ISIA meeting in St Christophe? And does BASI intend to align itself with ISIA (where it is on the inside) or with FEMPS (where it is on the outside)?
Of course I could be talking rubbish!
FEMPS - Fédération Européenne des Moniteurs Professionnels de Ski, European Professional Ski Instructor Association. FEMPS has three members:
SNMSF (Syndicat National Des Moniteurs Du Ski Francais), Collegio Nazionale Maestri di sci Italiani & ÖSSV Österreichischer Skischulverband.
These three groups of ski instructors are the original 3 Alpine Nations who decided that a race test was required before a ski instructor could be given a 'license' which would be valid in each of their 3 countries. The test has had several names before it became the Eurotest.
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Bindingcheck, good summary but I think there's a fifth perspective: that a timed GS or slalom test does have a role to play at the highest level of ski instructor qualification, but the standard should be set at a level which is commensurate with ensuring those who pass have sound technical skills in order to provide good quality instruction for their clients. Such a test could be included as part of an L4 technical assessment or as a free-standing assessment. It seems to me that the natural home for the Eurotest as it currently stands is part of a race coach's formation, perhaps the equivalent of BASI's L3 Coach award.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Bindingcheck, I would love to be able to help but, although I am fascinated by the subject, it is as a relative amateur and I wouldn't be able to advise reliably on it. I no longer practise, so access to the relevant material is tricky and, in any event, the subject is far from my now out-of-date area of expertise. Are there no lawyers within the BASI hierarchy? Or, even better, I bet there are some keen skiers in Matrix Chambers who could be leant on for some cut-price advice!
As an aside, I was interested in this bit of the Sharpstone judgment:
Quote:
The French Government also stated that on 27 March 2006 the Syndicat national des
moniteurs de ski français (French Ski Instructors Union, ‘the SNMSF’) had concluded an
agreement with BASI. BASI undertook to ensure that its snowboard instructors would also
hold alpine skiing qualifications. The agreement purported to commit France, in return, to
regularise the situation of around 40 British snowboard instructors by (exceptionally)
recognising their diplomas without further qualifications. BASI accordingly withdrew its
complaint to the Commission.
I wonder what the background was to BASI caving in at that time when, even then, they had a strong case not to do so. As the judgment effectively states, the relevant law still applies irrespective of any agreement which is cooked up between skiing associations. Obviously, any democratically backed desire for change can only be implemented if your professional organisation (about whose politics I am totally ignorant) puts its back into promoting the cause, without bowing to the vested interests of a minority of the membership.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:
that only the very best race trained skiers are able to become fully qualified
Quote:
ski extremely fast as a pre-condition to qualifying as an instructor: it's like saying that you have to play to international concert standard to qualify
Some fuel for thought. Currently there are 4481 people who would be exempt from the ET, to then give you a mid point at 100 points there are 6007 people. Then as pointed out byJonnie, you need to ski to around 160 fis points. We had a client on a little over this who consistently passed at mock tests, he was ranked 5611th. If you take the same points in the ladies you have to add another 3844 so you now have a potential 9455 people that can pass the ET. Now remember these are only people with current FIS points many many of us who have finished racing no longer are on that list. We also know 5,464 have passed the test according to the document posted, that number will have gone up. Now we can put that figure up to 14,919 people that we know have or could potentially pass the ET and as i pointed out this is with people holding a current license i would suggest the number would be much much greater if we could take anyone that has ever skied to these points. You would also have to add many Austrians etc who never got the chance to race FIS because its to competitive for spots.
I would also like to point out once you get to 1500+ on the list and to be fair there are also many below. These guys are not taking it seriously they are doing it as a hobby in the same way many of my friends play football on a sunday. There are quite a few brits who ski under 100 with only 3 - 4 weeks on average skiing a year, i wouldnt call this professional. Go to CIT or UNI races and there will be plenty of hung over and smoking "athletes".
So is it pitched to high now we know the potential numbers of people that could pass? Possibly as several of you have pointed out you could be a fantastic skier and a bad teacher and vice versur. I suggest though that there does have to be a cut off somewhere, where that is i dont know. Out of 14,000 +++ they arent all going to be to bad are they? of course they are not all going to want to be ski instructors and some may struggle with the level 4 tech or teach modules as some racers are not always good all rounder’s or good teachers.
Dogging, I would be happy from all we have discussed that you could allow a further 3-4% but remember to speak to someone who can do something about it I am not the guy you need to persuade.
Bindingcheck, I fully accept that age makes a difference at an elite level and will make it harder to get to the fitness levels to pass the ET "I still suggest far from impossible” I was mainly suggesting it was better to spend energy and time gaining seconds in the other areas that you have complete control over than a small percentage of time that you will have to fight hard for.
Quote:
Levels of instruction. People in all walks of life get a job interview because of their qualifications, most people regard qualification as equaling knowledge. People get the job because the qualification's suggest that they have the knowledge and at the interview they seemed to be an 'all right' sort of person. People keep the job or in skiing are re-hired the next season because they have displayed the ability to apply the knowledge. It is the application of knowledge which matters not the knowledge itself. Your allusion to university degree's is a classic example, very often people with 1st class degrees just cannot do the job (I know I've worked with them). Similarly there are some Level 2's who I would prefer to teach my parents rather than some ISTD's (there are some ISTD's that I would not have passed at even ISIA teaching level!) Remember there is a difference between performance and skill, in this case the skill is teaching
I completely agree with you on all of this, but in some cases knowledge is not enough. If you can recite the entire BASI manual and apply it well verbally this is great until your standing at the top of a tough bump line or being asked to carve a clean turn. If you can not transfer your knowledge into performance in this situation you are not doing a good job, especially for a visual learner. In this case the skill is your ability to demonstrate what you preach. We have to ask when deciding what the level is "what is best for the customer" and not our own self satisfaction or pockets. If there are instructors that can offer the full package should they be graded differently?(as you have pointed out about some ISTD’s should not have passed ISIA teaching this is true in that some ISIA should not have passed the tech). Someone instructing at ISTD level should have the skill’s to be able to both teach and perform and therefore having a qualification that shows someone can do this is worthwhile. I am sure as you pointed out it is not always the case, and further backs up the need for re testing.
As far as the whole law side goes I don’t have a clue Hurtle would I be wrong to suggest that our opinions aside Dr. Peter Mailänder is a very high end lawyer who is being paid as his job to put together a case against. If that is true then isn’t it possible that a similarly high end lawyer could put a pretty convincing case on the other side. Or am I way out on this, as I say I don’t have a clue.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
jjc, dare I suggest that you're looking at the current Eurotest standard from the wrong end of things? Surely a qualification should be set at a standard which relates to the job that it qualifies you to do, and not at a standard which relates to (limiting?) the number of people who could pass it? In education terms, which I have some experience of, this is the difference between norm-referenced qualifications (usually considered to be an unfair way of judging candidates) and criterion-referenced qualifications. You seem to be suggesting that the ET is at the right standard because there are 15,000 people who are capable of passing it. Maybe you could have a go suggesting why it's at the right standard with reference to the requirements of the job...?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Aah HURTLE, you have stolen part of my thunder.
Glad you have read at least part of the opinion, there are several other parts which are quite interesting on damning depending on ones perspective. Para 72 is quite amusing and illustrates how perceptive Sharpstone is.
Historically the involvement of the EU (then EC) began with a question raised by the state of Denmark. Denmark and the UK objected to the actions of France, ie.Danish / Brit ski instructors being arrested. The following is the start of the EU legislative paper chase.
The reasoning for the derogation is critical - safety. The conditions attached to the temporary derogation with respect to ski instruction were never met. One might wonder why a temporary derogation is changed to a permanent derogation when the conditions were never met. More about that later, but you will discover an uncanny similarity to the paragraph you highlighted from the Sharpstone opinion.
If you still have contacts in Matrix Chambers then contact them and see if their interest is tickled by this stuff. If nothing else I could offer them some very well qualified and free ski teaching / coaching
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
rob@rar wrote:
jjc, dare I suggest that you're looking at the current Eurotest standard from the wrong end of things?
I think jjc's observation hints at the theory that one of the background reasons the Euro Test was introduced was the need to help provide employment opportunities for Racers (as Instructors) when their pro racing days are finished.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
So many postings, by the time I manage to type a response another 2 have popped up!
JJC - Correct about the ubersmart lawyers, but you assume that I and or some of the other postee's are not ubersmart lawyers as well. The final decision is made by a court as in AG Sharpstones reasoned opinion. When it does go to court the FEMPS Nations are consistently 'gubbed'. Read the Sharpstone opinion, it is written in a very readable fashion.
Can I get back to you about the levels of instruction bit? I'm a bit pushed for time just now.
ROB@RAR - Another thunder stealer. People are trying to solve things from the wrong end. But this is a consequence of a Test being introduced for all the wrong reasons. It only survives because of the political chicanery of the FEMPS instructors, if one can hang about for long enough it will be discredited and abandoned. In the meantime BASI should press for appropriate test and then means that members should bring to the attention of the Board their disatisfactory with the current FEMRA alliance
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Perhaps we can have a view from the Alpine Director & Legal Director who were both happy to come on this Forum and request votes for their election.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Bindingcheck, as an aspiring snowboard instructor, I read the Sharpstone ruling with considerable interest, but I'm not sure of its relevance to skiing and the Eurotest?
Sorry, I don't. I didn't realise there was a legal director of BASI: it would be right and proper - and tactically sound, I should have thought - to put all the excellent questions (on both 'sides') of this thread, to that person in the first instance.
jjc, yes indeed, all lawyers, distinguished or otherwise, are paid to win cases and/or to negotiate profitable settlements, but even in the best contests, there are losers as well as winners. And deals are sometimes done for all sorts of unlikely - and occasionally dodgy - reasons.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
rob@rar,
Quote:
Maybe you could have a go suggesting why it's at the right standard with reference to the requirements of the job...?
I'll have a pop, not sure but as i understood on the istd teach we were told to improve our peers. This means that an ISTD should be able to teach another ISTD, the question is does the ET ensure that an ISTD is a capable skier to do so?
Have seen the "skiing fast doesn't make you a good teacher" point a few times, there is a Teach exam that ensures all are at the required level, a bad teacher should therefore not get through the system this way. The tech allows for different levels of passing such as a 5 or a 6 grade. The ET is a clear cut time, no point of view, no opinion. But the level is in question by many people.
I like the clear cut part, i do see the reason to increase the percentage for older candidates. At which age would you introduce the extra percentage? 35... 40... 45... 50?
jjc, liking the posts much more mature.
After all it is free
After all it is free
as a 'neutral' observer, I do think jjc has made a few good points about 'who' you train with. I do think a decent trainer, with a proven training program will help massively here.
If I can draw a parallel, my daughter joined a social gym club, enjoyed it and was doing ok. That year in the regional grades she came something like 25th out of 30 girls. After discussions with her we moved to a more serious gym, she trained a little longer, but the training was alot stricter, more focused and the instructors also knew a fair few 'top tip's to gain an extra 0.1 of a point here and there.
7 months later, at a grade higher, she finished 2nd, with a similiar peer group to the previous grades....
regards,
Greg
Last edited by After all it is free on Tue 22-03-11 17:23; edited 1 time in total
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, I was just aiming to put some perspective on the current difficulty of the test “fuel for thought”. I wasn’t trying to suggest if it’s too high or to low I am leaving that for people to form their own opinions. To a first time reader who has never entered a ET or to someone who has no idea of these figures, recent posts would suggest that the current standard is almost non attainable unless your a full time athlete or have been when the figures show otherwise. For me the test shows your ability to effectively make accurate (why there is the need for gates) adaptable, clean and precise turns the better you are at this will result in a faster time. The standard that exists now is the standard I assume the powers that be have deemed appropriate to be awarded the qualification. I think they use time rather than opinion because then it isn’t subjective (have I used this word correctly: oops: ). It’s the only part of the whole qualification that isn’t. If there is a better test out there then that can only be a good thing and I encourage people to say what that is.
david@mediacopy, I’m trying to show that outside the top 1500 - 2000 you would struggle to find a full time racer other than potentially small nations. I personally scored under 100 for the first time when I was a 17 year old who skied 1 week a year until I was 12 and then on average 3-4 weeks a year. I was far from being a full time super fit top of the world athlete. I speak from experience because that season I learnt a lot. I went from being a 180 point skier (probably not passing the ET) To 90 points a standard that is almost exempt. This is because I got fit was fortunate enough to find some better equipment and spent hours watching WC winning runs and had a good base level provided to me by a BASI trainer.
I am not saying it is easy. It is far from easy, but 100% not impossible. Do these figures not show it is a more reasonable standard than people think or those against are portraying? As I have said in past posts the candidates are still doing a lot of things wrong, I can only assume this is because they don’t know or have not been taught better. The pass rate would increase significantly if this changed. There would see a lot more days like when the French colleges turn up.
Bindingcheck, Quite the opposite, you appear to assume I am assuming a lot of things that I do not assume at all You are doing a fairly good job portraying an ubersmart lawyer so I have no basis to assume your not.
My point is if this ubersmart lawyer produces an ubersmart case is it not fair to assume there is a ubersmart case being made on the other side that we have not seen yet that is potentially better, or perhaps worse? Should we not acknowledge this for the purpose of the debate?
Ski the Net with snowHeads
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jjc james, Nice try but half of them were you!! We will have to let the forum decide the villan
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
jjc wrote:
rob@rar, I was just aiming to put some perspective on the current difficulty of the test “fuel for thought”. I wasn’t trying to suggest if it’s too high or to low I am leaving that for people to form their own opinions.
Fair enough. For my part I think the standard is unnecessarily high for assessing the capacity of instructors to provide a good service to their clients. I don't think the French set this standard to keep the Brits out, but I do think it's been set at this level to keep a large proportion of 'non-racers' out, ie, Parisians and the like rather than locals who grew up in the mountains racing from a young age.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
jjc,
Quote:
My point is if this ubersmart lawyer produces an ubersmart case is it not fair to assume there is a ubersmart case being made on the other side that we have not seen yet that is potentially better, or perhaps worse? Should we not acknowledge this for the purpose of the debate?
Oh, I didn't understand that this was the point you were making. I'm happy to acknowledge it - though I don't understand how it furthers matters.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Is there not a sixth perspective in that top level instructors should be of a certain standard in all aspects of modern skiing and if we accept the Eurotest is necessary and appropriate then we need to include cliff hucking, rail sliding, flippy spinny park tricks etc in their assessments?
So if the world record for cliffs is say 120ft an ISTD ought to be able to stick 80ft? If the X Games champ manages a 1080 Switch double off axis flip, surely an ISTD should be able to stomp a switch 900 off axis? These are also far from impossible - lots of kids/nutcases in resorts can do this stuff so surely its fair game?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
stevomcd wrote:
as an aspiring snowboard instructor
I know a couple of people who run their own chalet companies, similar to yours, and have spoken to Simon Butler about running a similar operation to his. They do not wish to train for ET or its equivelant in snowboard. [/table]
Oh and i opened in morzine today, nice hill much flatter than alpe du'huez. Had a fair few French get it and some at a very high standard i presume they were members of a college as they knew the french openers and were getting some coaching. no brits unfortunately, one was close.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
The responses from Dave Renouf to skimottaret's questions are as follows:
"BASI has been sending a TD to ensure fairness, can we not get a reoprt on this?"
I'm waiting for confirmation as to whether we can publicise Susie Berry’s (FIS Technical Delegate) reports about the Eurotest and the fairness of the way they are run.
"Will BASI push for the ISIA test which seems to have addressed the inconsistencies or at least some changes to make it more reliable? or will they kowtow to the French who as sixman says just use it as a filter to keep cheap labour in the ESF pyramid and wages high."
· BASI are going to pursue the route of supporting both the ISIA and the Eurotest. The perception that we are Kowtowing to the French is not a true one. The BASI Board of Directors (the members elected group to lead the strategies of BASI) want the ISTD to be recognised throughout the whole of EU and this can only happen by including the Eurotest and EMS within the syllabus. The perception that this is due to the French requesting this is understandable, as most of the negotiations tend to involve the French amongst others as the French administration is the only centralised system. however this is the volition of all 5 countries who are delegated to be able to run the Eurotest
"can you confirm that BASI has submitted an application to the EU? If so i think that info should be published to members."
· The negotiations with regard the EU are ongoing and it would be imprudent to publish anything without it having official outcomes agreed by the EU.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Patch wrote:
fatbob, I like your thinking !
Should at least open up some vacancies in ski schools if applied retrospectively Maybe to be fair we say Freddie wasn't in total control so setting at 1/3 of his mark is a fair standard- 120ft (110 for ladies)?
fatbob, Should the head plant also be compulsory? This seems the best technique! I think this is number 2 in the world records, he must have been gutted when Freddie beat him drunk http://youtube.com/v/G0SDQcm0VcU
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I have no problem with the ET in its current form if there is no L4/FEMPS hegemony on independent work. After all, if it's supposed to represent membership of an elite cadre of premium instructors, what's the harm as long as there's no closed shop and they have to compete to justify their premium price? Personally what I want to see is for the ISIA (stamp) to allow independent practice as a ski instructor across the world. Which was its original role.
Of course if the hegemony were to remain then yes the ET in its current form should be taken down. The level is unnecessarily high to demonstrate some knowledge and ability of racing for the purposes of normal ski instruction. The fact that there's a bunch of racers and ex-racers who can get it is quite irrelevant. The numbers of people on the planet who can get it has no bearing on whether it is an appropriate level. Rather the appropriate level ought be decided by what would actually be helpful in teaching the vast majority of clients because racing and instructing while sharing the common ground of strong fundamentals are actually very different strands of skiing. Also without a handicap or correction system it discriminates unjustifiably against people coming to the occupation later in life because physical strength and fitness, as well as powers of healing and recovery, bleedin' obviously diminish very significantly with age whether you train or not (yes, yes, ok, as evidenced by the lack of the chronologically challenged in professional sport, blah blah ), and most clients don't need terribly athletic instructors (evid by all you gotta do is look at the average middle-aged carte pro's spread).
Bindingcheck, another good post, very diplomatic if I may say so - you're obviously a man on a mission. You'll forgive me - the ET in whatever form (or not) it takes in the future will never have a major bearing on my life. Just for the record I didn't make any comment about the number of people on the other side of the fence who don't support the ET, only that the only people who do support it are on the other side of the fence! The only safety issue is pulling up the drawbridge once they are safely across .
jjc james wrote:
jjc, liking the posts much more mature.
More mature certainly makes for better PR.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Fri 8-04-11 17:13; edited 1 time in total
After all it is free
After all it is free
Hmmm have had a thought about the ET and to a lesser extent the TT. In the ESF each level that the kids gain gets harder until they start to ski gates. Now every ski instructor should be be able to deliver all lesson levels. For the fleche and chamois an instructor (with the diplome) has to open a GS/SL race for the kids and adults in the race. I know that not all ski schools do this but for me it is something to do other than teaching for an hour and is great fun!
As all the ESF levels lead through to the competition levels this may be why the french are so keen on a race standard test. I've taught many a group this season to ski gates. I know this only relates to the esf and ski schools that run a similar set up, however the number of workers this applies to is massive. Heres a vid of examples http://youtube.com/v/cGCAW5yljK4
No one keen to set an age at which this extra percentage should come in?
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
jjc james wrote:
No one keen to set an age at which this extra percentage should come in?
Masters racing starts at 30 but i think that is too young. If i can rememeber correctly my body wasn't too bad at 30 and i was still chasing people around a football field before my kness went all together.
The general census from people on the 'Eurotour' is 40, with incruments every 5 years just like masters racing, but personally i think this is too low and it should be 45.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Depends if it's incremental. If not then I think 40 is reasonable. Nice round number. 30 is too young and 50, well, starts to feel a bit unrealistic to be embarking on a new career in a physical sport (though we are all living longer (hopefully) now). If incremental then maybe 35 and upwards. From a pulling up the drawbridge viewpoint, any correction system would obviously allow more over the moat, so bad, but from a training business' viewpoint, there'd be lots and lots more customers looking to be trained. Lots. And of course this would also be the case if the basic pass standard of ET were lowered. Think about it.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
) thinks it's either a useful or appropriate test for a ski instructor (at its current level) or fair to the youthfully challenged.
You are doing a fairly good job portraying an ubersmart lawyer so I have no basis to assume your not.
), and most clients don't need terribly athletic instructors (evid by all you gotta do is look at the average middle-aged carte pro's spread).
.
