 Poster: A snowHead
|
| johnnyh wrote: |
| Vipa, your argument is a tautology, if you are anti-heli you wouldn't be a heli skier. |
Not necessarily... I'm sure there will be at least 1 pro heli-skier out there who is deep down environmentaly against the principle, but getting paid for it puts food on the table.
I am inherently against debt but I'm a financial adviser and sell finance????
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
paulio, no it is a tautology, if you are skier but anti-heli you're not going to be a heli-skier; it's a proposition which is always true.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
johnnyh,
| Quote: |
You cannot say that because you use a computer (or even own a light bulb?) that you therefore forefitt any right to a position on Climate change. That is just a bit of a daft comparison from you HH. Heli-skiing as demos, has pointed out has a massive CO2 impact relative to other activities, especially running a laptop.
|
Johnnyh, why do you insist on ignoring the argument as a whole and just cherry pick comments and put them out of context...is it because your argument is so weak?
| Quote: |
I feel we all need to be aware of the impact we make on our environment and we need to reduce, re-use and recycle. BUT, I would not come over all self righteous like DG and JH have by demanding the banning of one certain activity when there are plenty of other persuits practiced for the mere reward of pleasure.
|
| Quote: |
No, I'm trying to make a point, that point being that the argument that DavidGoldsmith and JohnnyH make does not hold up. They shouldn't argue to abolish one pass time when they quite clearly engage in pass times which are equally as destructive to the environment (due to the actual number of people participating in them and the frequency of participation).
|
There maybe if I repeat myself you might actually listen for a change.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
anybody got any good pics of Jodie???? maybe protesting against fur??? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| johnnyh wrote: |
| Quote: |
once in a lifetime thrill
|
Exactly: their lifetime. Not a lot of consideration for the impact on the planet in their actions.
| Quote: |
The only arrogance I can see is in your post. Are you really that self-righteous?
|
Yes; when I am right. Which in this case I am. Are you really that rude to presume you know anything about me?
|
And are you really that rude to presume you know anything at all about those people who go heli-skiing? Are they really all arrogant, ignorant and as self centred as you have presumed? I would suggest the vast majority of them are none of those things.
As you are taking such a high moral standing on this subject, I presume your lifestyle is an exemplary model of global conservation?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
indeed it is. Is yours?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
johnnyh,
Is it really, give foundation to your argument and tell us why?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
johnnyh,
| Quote: |
Why would you want to over consume, to waste, to burn excess fossil fuels if you don't need to. What sort of person would it make you if you did that? It's not hard to think of the scenarios and the types of people that do exactly that. If you want to be one of them, I'd like to say fine, get on with it. But the trouble is it's my planet too, and my children's (and yours) future your gambling with, so it's kind of important.
|
Do you ski? I mean at all, I'm not talking about heli-skiing. If so, that is just about the most ridiculous and hypocritical comment I've ever heard.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hurtle,
Exactly, but he seems blind to it. I think he's a plant just here to stoke the fire.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
HH, if the argument for the environment is so weak then don't bother joining in the discussion.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
johnnyh, it's not the argument for the environment that's weak, it's the way in which you pursue it that's weak, not forgetting such pearls as alleging - as a presumed skier living in Cornwall - that
| Quote: |
your lifestyle is an exemplary model of global conservation
|
Truly crass.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
johnnyh,
| Quote: |
Why would you want to over consume, to waste, to burn excess fossil fuels if you don't need to. What sort of person would it make you if you did that? It's not hard to think of the scenarios and the types of people that do exactly that. If you want to be one of them, I'd like to say fine, get on with it. But the trouble is it's my planet too, and my children's (and yours) future your gambling with, so it's kind of important.
|
You sound like a right loser.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
Whitegold, for once, I applaud you! 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| johnnyh wrote: |
Lame argument, really. As others have said two wrongs do not make the situation right. You cannot say that because you use a computer (or even own a light bulb?) that you therefore forefitt any right to a position on Climate change. That is just a bit of a daft comparison from you HH. Heli-skiing as demos, has pointed out has a massive CO2 impact relative to other activities, especially running a laptop.
|
not disputing demos's figures but they are all quoted as emissions per hour. the amount of airtime in a heli-drop is a fraction of this. for example, the drops I have done (from Clavans le Haute to Alpe d'Huez) involve about 3 mins of airtime each way. alternatively i can get a taxi which takes 45 mins plus time for the taxi to get to Clavans. or I can do a bit less downhill, a bit or traversing and a bit of skinning and get back under my own steam. i have done all of these options in the past but the skinning/traversing one by far the most often. in general, i'd say i get more out of a day with human-powered uphill than heli-powered, but there are occasions where the heli is a fun option.
what's the point of this ramble? i guess it is that perhaps it is possible to think about the impact of helis and still use them from time to time and also that i am not sure what a "heli-skier" is. is it someone who only uses helis for uplift or do i count as an evil heli-skier despite the fact that i have climbed many times more vertical meters under my own steam than i have by helicopter?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
Hurtle, you've obviously not spoken to many people in your life then. Perhaps you should get out more.
If you bothered to read my posts you would see that I advocate thought and responsibility in ones actions - that is all. If you want to ski, or indeed even heli-ski that's fine. But in doing so you should consider it's impact. If you can live with that, then that too is fine, although we may all not live to regret some people's actions on this planet in the future. Yes, I have skied, no it's not the most environmentally friendly thing you can do in the world, but my point is that a lot of the skiers who post here seem to not care about the environment they supposedly enjoy. I would go as far as to say that many think they would rather screw it up, than admit that it *might* be being damaged. Some of the things people can do to protect the planet and environment (as I have said before in this post) are not exactly that hard to do. In fact in spite of the good they may do for the planet they may also help you individually. For example, using your car less and walking places could be good for your health and cost you less money. It's also good for the planet too, but you don't have to buy into that argument.
What it seems to me is that the skiers on here appear to be more interested in a kind of hedonistic enjoyment of skiing rather than a passion for the place that is the mountains and what skiing represents on a more complex level. Compared with surfers, for example, who as I have said before, show a great deal of respect for the oceans and the acts of nature which create the place they do what they love.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Whitegold, what I sound like and what you are appears the same. Except I can change my views where as you cannot change what you are.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Arno, just using this to boost my post count.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| johnnyh wrote: |
| What it seems to me is that the skiers on here appear to be more interested in a kind of hedonistic enjoyment of skiing rather than a passion for the place that is the mountains and what skiing represents on a more complex level. |
Have you reached that conclusion because a few people refuse to criticize a mountain-based entertainment programme on the Beeb?
Just out of interest do you have kids?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Quote: |
Whitegold, for once, I applaud you!
|
. . . erm since when has Whitegold EVER posted anything worthwhile.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
johnnyh,
| Quote: |
you've obviously not spoken to many people in your life then. Perhaps you should get out more
|
This is a very droll remark from someone who has just posted the following:
| Quote: |
Are you really that rude to presume you know anything about me?
|
| Quote: |
a lot of the skiers who post here seem to not care about the environment they supposedly enjoy
|
And my perception is that that is completely untrue.
| Quote: |
Some of the things people can do to protect the planet and environment (as I have said before in this post) are not exactly that hard to do.
|
Agreed. One of the easiest is to eschew skiing.
| Quote: |
For example, using your car less and walking places could be good for your health and cost you less money |
Really? Hold the front page.
| Quote: |
What it seems to me is that the skiers on here appear to be more interested in a kind of hedonistic enjoyment of skiing rather than a passion for the place that is the mountains and what skiing represents on a more complex level.
|
An enjoyment of skiing would not be a surprising interest to see reflected on a ski forum. However, I again think that your perception is wrong. A lot of posters on here do have a passion for the mountains, not just for skiing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
rob@rar, if you read the posts here it seems that many people appear to view skiing in different ways. I'm simply saying there's a connections between the environment in a global sense and what we each do. DG suggested (and others) that Heli-skiing had quite a high negative impact on the environment. My view is that on a scale of the acceptable and the not quite so acceptable heli-skiing sits at the wrong end of the scale. For that reason, I suggested that we, as skiers might consider that option carefully given that there are other methods (skinning/back country) of achieving the same ends - i.e. powder skiing.
Sadly some people think that concern overt the environment is not their problem, even though as I've also said, in can have a good effect on ones own personal position as well, if you consider your choices carefully.
For the record I liked HA but I don't consider it to be as good as when it was embedded into Ski Sunday. It does now seem more like an adrenaline rush show rather than the more rounded magazine features of before. Interesting, but again, not that interesting. DG suggested they promoted too far things which maybe should be banned. I'd say, they should just point out that this *might* not be the best thing from an environmental point of view.
Yes, I have children. Do you?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Is Johnnyh just trying to completely alienate himself here?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
johnnyh,
uktrailmonster, said
| Quote: |
As you are taking such a high moral standing on this subject, I presume your lifestyle is an exemplary model of global conservation?
|
you said
| Quote: |
indeed it is. Is yours?
|
I said
| Quote: |
Is it really, give foundation to your argument and tell us why?
|
but, funnily enough, you did not respond to this request...why?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
johnnyh, I think it's difficult to argue that heli-skiing has a high negative impact given it is such a minority activity. A negative impact, yes more than likely and in more ways than consuming carbon credits as davidof pointed out way back when. I think it's also fair to say that there are no viable alternatives which give you the same bang for your buck as heli-skiing. So once again the over-zealous environmentalists tarnish a perfectly good cause by gunning for the wrong target.
No I don't have kids. In terms of consumption of precious resources I'd guess that bringing new consumers into this world is right up there, way higher than heli-skiing. As I don't have a family can I spend my spare carbon credits on heli-miles? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
Hurtle, the posts this discussion alone show that some people would rather ski at any cost, even at a cost to the mountain itself.
You may feel it is obvious to state the benefits but there are clearly some people posting on here that require a more simple explanation of why it's not about *saving the planet* but actually is more of a win/win situation.
| Quote: |
And my perception is that that is completely untrue.
|
And mine that it is true. Where do we go from here?
I still say that it is a shame that there is not a more rounded comprehension and engagement with environmental issues from skiers. I really don't see why that is wrong to want that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
HH, do you want to come round and see my wind turbine or something?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
johnnyh,
Gosh you really know how to woo a woman!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
rob@rar, we don't really want to bring our children up as consumers, and I hope they will also show a degree of responsibility for their actions too. I agree there are issues with over populating the planet, although there are also issues with a dwindling work force in the UK, so no doubt there are arguments on both sides. My children will be funding yours and my retirement by their working taxes just as we are our parents.
I agree that Heli-skiing is minority in its take up, but that doesn't exempt it from discussion. I imagine, although I wouldn't speak for him, that DG was also considering why the BBC was effectively promoting the activity in HA. I disagree that there are no viable alternatives. There are many, but in some ski areas I guess it maybe a case of not being able to access everything as conveniently. I think davidof's negative impact in other areas is also important. It is the fact that such things are not simply about one thing or another but indeed have many facets which makes the discussion important. To some it is noise, to others it maybe CO2. That surely doesn't mean we just don't consider it, because different people are championing the same outcome for non-opposing reasons.
I'm not an environmentalist, but I am aware of the issues and I'm making my way toward making the smallest possible impact I can make on the planet. I don't feel guilty for what I don't do, and nor should anyone else, I just think everyone should consider it more carefully these days.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
johnnyh, unfortunately, what undermines your argument is that ALL skiing (if you use any kind of mechanical uplift whatsoever) is at a cost to the mountain itself. If you believe your own argument, you should not be doing it. There are many who give thought to environmental issues on this forum (and this thread) and argue their case with some hard facts - take Arno as but a recent example, you have ignored his well-argued point. Just because people don't agree with you and take issue with the hypocrisy of your position does not mean that people do not understand the concepts at stake.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
johnnyh,
| Quote: |
I just think everyone should consider it more carefully these days
|
If people on here were not considering it carefully, they would not be bothering to counter your specious arguments.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| johnnyh wrote: |
| rob@rar, we don't really want to bring our children up as consumers, |
You're going to clothe and feed yours, I presume? And keep them warm in winter, and drive them to places from time to time, and maybe even a skiing holiday or two? We're all consumers, so surely it's best to examine this consumption in the round and see where real savings can be made rather than bleating on about totemic issues that the smallest fraction of the population indulge in?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
Last night, viewers of the new BBC snowshow High Altitude were treated to more 'high attitude' from its presenters - Graham Bell and Ed Leigh - to nipping up high peaks in choppers in order to ski down them. They didn't actually argue the case for this decadent concept in ski lifts - they just did it for a bit of sexy TV. Zermatt and The Remarkables (New Zealand) were the chosen locations, presumably because there were handy chopper pads nearby.
High Altitude - a pale imitation of Top Gear and its own gratuitous gas-guzzling (at least Top Gear benefits from high wit and a trio of bright personalities) - seems to think that air pollution ain't an issue, despite the overwhelming evidence that it is destroying our sport, melting our glaciers and threatening the lives of millions across the globe. Oh no - we should just carry on glorifying the most expensive 'aspiration' for gold-card skiers.
What a waste of air time, money and talent.
These dinosaurs should be sacked and replaced with ski presenters who actually convey some soul, personality and spirit about what skiing is, where it came from, and what its future might promise. There's nothing unchallenging about skinning up a 4000m peak.
There's nothing boring about skiing that doesn't involve helicopters. |
I've just booked a heli-skiing trip. I'll let you know if it's more exciting that standard skiing upon my return. Of course a ban on heli-skiing would have no measurable impact on the way the climate develops.
What are you going to ban next, chairlifts?
You might consider resigning as a member of the Ski Club in protest at their promotion of heli-skiing. If I were you, that's what I would do.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
rob@rar,
| Quote: |
bleating on about totemic issues
|
oooh, nice turn of expression, that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
PJSki, can you deal with johnnyh as well, please? You can run the same arguments, mutatis mutandis.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
PJSki,
Isn't it interesting that DG has been posting on other threads tonight but is strangely absent from this one?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hurtle, no, what Arno says is in many ways what I am saying. In that yes, he is having an impact by doing it. Yes, he could do it in a different way and clearly has done and enjoyed the same experience. Will he consider it more in the future and perhaps, when once he would have unquestioningly said, "yes I'll take the chopper" he will now take is hand off the chopper and put it on the skin(s).
I had no intention of ignoring his point, I've just been busy. I don't think there is an inherently evil to heli-skiing. The cost to the mountain from ski lifts is something I have considered. In fact I like (probably like many others) like to get away from the lifts as soon as I can. I do not feel that it undermines any argument. The resorts bring employment, etc. so there is a balance to be struck. The thing that many people here seem to like to argue is that it's all or nothing (see HH's point about computers and electricity) you can't have that sort of discussion, because of course everything we do has some kind of resonance upon someone else. Again, you cannot not do something because you are unable to do everything. That won't work in this context and probably not in many other contexts either.
The surfers analogy is what I feel is most appropriate. Surfers campaigned against sewage and went along way to protecting the place they enjoy and play in. I'm sure a few still cr4p in the sea but overall the intention is a good one and one that is in tune with the environment. Skiers seem to be saying we've screwed it up so badly anyway, with flying here, sticking these lifts up, deforestation etc, lets just jump in the heli and have some fun and expense of the future. I'm suggesting a more considered approach.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Yes, excellent point rob@rar.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
johnnyh,
| Quote: |
The thing that many people here seem to like to argue is that it's all or nothing (see HH's point about computers and electricity)
|
I never said it was all or nothing, I was trying to get you to justify skiing, using pc's etc for enjoyment while berrating the very few that choose to heli-ski.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
