 Poster: A snowHead
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my dad gave some BIG airtime to couple of skiers in ukraine. personally me, i was laughing my butt off 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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or......go too slow and you make yourself easy for some w****** to hit you......... who do you trust..?? 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| slikedges wrote: |
Hurtle, Scarpa, I drive progressively but on cross country roads always imagine that there's a broken down car just round the next blind bend.
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I think you misunderstood "progressing" in my posts.
I used it to mean improving, not moving along at a reasonable speed.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Timmaah,
don't mean to pick on you (see the other thread) but I think you are missing the point:
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This is a ridiculous topic. As if you would willingly hit another skier.
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You may not willingly hit another skier but if you ski in a way that prevents you from avoiding another skier (too close, too fast for your ablity and the conditions) then you are in the wrong even if you did not intend to hit the other skier.
Consider a driving analogy, if you tailgate someone on the motorway and rear end them as a result, the fact that you did not intend to hit them is of very littly consolation and does nothing to absolve you.
An "accident" is not an accident if a responsible driver (skier) would have avoided it.
Cheers,
J
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Or to put it another way, a skier may be culpably negligent without intending harm - or, I suppose, guilty of wilful misconduct if it can be shown that he knew, or should have known, he was skiing recklessly.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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alex_heney, not sure I read your posts actually  so certainly not using the root word in any context related to yours. By "progressive driving" I mean making maximum progress for the road, traffic and weather conditions without risking safety.
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I think when skiing we all have a responseability to each other to be vigilant and aware of everyone on the slope.
You cant just go bombing around and expecting people to see you coming and move out the way.
And you cant just go setting off without checking whats coming.
You get reckless drivers on the road putting other people at risk. The same way you get reckless skier's / boarders putting people at risk.
To drive you need road sense! To ski you need piste sense!
I always try and stay out of the way of other people on the slope.
Its irrisposeable to bomb down the slope using other people as slalom gates.
Maybe a deadicated piste for people who just wanna bomb it would be an idea?
Call it "the fast slope" or something make up a new color for it "sliver"
It could be policed so only some many people can be on it at one time??
Is there such a thing as a skiing licence?
I suppose that would be a good way of cutting down on accidents / deaths. (theres an idea for a new thread.)
But no doubt would be hugely unpopular.
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maybe my above post has already been touched on. i only read the first page of this thread 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm not sure I was at fault, but I did feel bad.......
Last week, I was skiing in Mayrhofen. Over from Penken towards Horberg, 3 red runs combine to form a very wide area before separating again. About halfway down the wide area, a new red run turns off left to traverse the mountain eventually intersecting with the bottom of the Harakiri (black).
I was skiing quite fast down the right hand side of the wide area, before arcing left, across the piste to take the 'exit' towards the Harakiri. At this intersection (on the left of the wide piste) a group of skiers with an instructor were slowing to stop just beneath the intersection junction. As I swung left, across the piste to take the exit, or fork, the stragglers in the group who were definitely uphill of my position when I started to turn were crossing the entrance to my intended route and slowing to join the main group who had already stopped.
As a result and inspite of pressuring my downhill ski hard to avoid colliding with the last in the group, in the process of diving to the ground hard to my left, I clipped the boot of a young lad. I fell, he stayed upright with no damage.
The instructor yelled at me to have more control/less speed.
My point: Why did a suposedly experienced instructor elect to halt his group so close to a fork entrance on a fast, open stretch on a red run, thus slowing them down in a potentially hazardous place? The young lad may not have had awareness of his responsibility as the uphill skier nor the skill to avoid a collision.
Even looking back on the incident, I'm not sure I was without blame - I was skiing quite fast. However, had the instructor not stopped/slowed his group down at a point where there was an offshoot, there would have been no hazard. Any thoughts?
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| Chasseur wrote: |
I'm not sure I was at fault, but I did feel bad.......
Last week, I was skiing in Mayrhofen. Over from Penken towards Horberg, 3 red runs combine to form a very wide area before separating again. About halfway down the wide area, a new red run turns off left to traverse the mountain eventually intersecting with the bottom of the Harakiri (black).
I was skiing quite fast down the right hand side of the wide area, before arcing left, across the piste to take the 'exit' towards the Harakiri. At this intersection (on the left of the wide piste) a group of skiers with an instructor were slowing to stop just beneath the intersection junction. As I swung left, across the piste to take the exit, or fork, the stragglers in the group who were definitely uphill of my position when I started to turn were crossing the entrance to my intended route and slowing to join the main group who had already stopped.
As a result and inspite of pressuring my downhill ski hard to avoid colliding with the last in the group, in the process of diving to the ground hard to my left, I clipped the boot of a young lad. I fell, he stayed upright with no damage.
The instructor yelled at me to have more control/less speed.
My point: Why did a suposedly experienced instructor elect to halt his group so close to a fork entrance on a fast, open stretch on a red run, thus slowing them down in a potentially hazardous place? The young lad may not have had awareness of his responsibility as the uphill skier nor the skill to avoid a collision.
Even looking back on the incident, I'm not sure I was without blame - I was skiing quite fast. However, had the instructor not stopped/slowed his group down at a point where there was an offshoot, there would have been no hazard. Any thoughts? |
From your description, I can't see how you were anything other than almost completely to blame.
You say he was the uphill skier, but he can't really have been if you were traveling fast and he stopped ahead of you. At best you were both at the same level, in which situation it is IMO mainly up to the faster skier to take any avoiding action necessary, particularly when it is obvious the other skier(s) are part of a school group.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I'd say the uphill skier is technically in the wrong but you see a snake of ski school learners its not polite to buzz through the gaps. Its like the've got L plates on, you need to make allowances. If I understand the layout correctly IMO after the juction on the side of the piste is a correct place to stop.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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So stopping a group beneath a junction (or fork) on a wide, fast red and thereby slowing the group down to cause obstruction is acceptable? I was definitely downhill to the last skiers in the group when I turned and traversed the wide area. Both skiers I was with confirmed that from their view higher up the piste. The person I clipped was not stationary, but was slowing to join the already stopped group of about 6 skiers.
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| Lechbob wrote: |
| I'd say the uphill skier is technically in the wrong but you see a snake of ski school learners its not polite to buzz through the gaps. Its like the've got L plates on, you need to make allowances. If I understand the layout correctly IMO after the juction on the side of the piste is a correct place to stop. |
The instructor could have stopped his group either above the junction and thereby ensured no obstruction (and moved off when the route was clear), or more preferably halted the group another 100m further on which was definitely an option given the length of the piste. This wasn't an obvious ski school snaking its way down a mountain. I'm usually pretty aware of other skiers, not a "screw everyone else if they're in my way" slider.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Lechbob,
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Poster: A snowHead
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There is a contrast between ski training (not compulsory, loads of technique, not much safety stuff) and diver training (compulsory certification, not nearly as much individual technique as skiing, vast amounts of safety training). The reason is clear - if you get an "accident" when diving there is a high chance you will kill or cripple yourself 
Divers have a term that describes why accidents happen, which applies to most of the incidents or scenarios listed above - in the UK it's called the "incident pit". (Americans, more descriptively, call it a clusterf**k  ).
The incident pit is a series of events which individually would not be dangerous, but each causes a problem, which is increased by the next, until you have a major incident.
Another way to put it (better for skiers  ): The incident pit is a conceptual 'pit' with progressively steeper sides. Anything going wrong pushes you slightly further into the pit. As the sides steepen, it gets progressively more difficult to get out, until you fall in.
Skiing fast doesn't cause an accident; it just pushes you a little bit into the incident pit. Skiing fast, when it's busy, doesn't cause an accident; it just pushes you further into the incident pit. Skiing fast, when it's busy, and it's icy, doesn't cause an accident; it just pushes you further into the incident pit. Skiing fast, when it's busy, and it's icy, and you're on a Black run, and it's crossed by a Green with beginner classes on it ... sooner or later you fall into the incident pit.
All of the "what ifs ..." above can be answered by doing what divers are taught to do - be aware when you may be in it and take steps to move out of the incident pit. That may mean skiing more cautiously and/or slower and/ or elsewhere that it's quieter and/ or somewhere more in your ability but if you are careless about going into the incident pit, what follows is your fault 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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CB1, A very good post.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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CB1, very helpful
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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CB1, applies similarly when dealing with women
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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CB1, dangerously so
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Chasseur Wrote:
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I'm not sure I was at fault, but I did feel bad.......
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Hmm - suspect you felt bad, because deep down inside you know (despite any uphill downhill skier stuff) - you were the man in charge here.
You basically crossed from the far right of a very wide intersection area at speed to make a left turn !!!! Bit like turning left off the motorway straight from the righthand lane eh !
My take is that the rule 'uphill skier to lookout for everything' is a guide, not a fits every scenario tool. A novice, especially one following an instructor has not got a hell's chance of spotting someone flying in from the peripheral areas.
All junctions and changes of direction, should be handled with a slowing down, and thorough lookabout.
Still it shows how easily things can suddenly go titsup !
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CB1, Well said - I think there are probably lots of snowheads that dive and I'd suspect they'd share your attitude if not your eloquence  . I think that a combination of your post and the earlier view that blaming someone else is only modest comfort when one people are injured would help everyone on the slopes more than trying to improve on the rules of the piste or analyse their application.
In my case it took nearly two weeks full time of safety centric training before I would (or even could without buying gear) dive without an instructor, versus half a day (non compulsory) before I could start causing chaos on pistes. Anybody fancy diving on a crowded wreck with beginners flailing their arms around knocking off masks and taking out hoses? Its about attitude and I'll carry on skiing defensively and wish, but don't expect, that eveyone elase would too.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| beeryletcher wrote: |
Chasseur Wrote:
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I'm not sure I was at fault, but I did feel bad.......
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| Hmm - suspect you felt bad, because deep down inside you know (despite any uphill downhill skier stuff) - you were the man in charge here. |
Hmmmm, and if the situation was reversed? I take responsibility as the uphill skier - that is being aware of sudden changes of direction of those ahead. Not that I suddenly changed direction - I was traversing in a consistent line.
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| You basically crossed from the far right of a very wide intersection area at speed to make a left turn !!!! Bit like turning left off the motorway straight from the righthand lane eh ! |
Not at all IMV. There are no lanes on a piste and the rules are obviously very different.
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| My take is that the rule 'uphill skier to lookout for everything' is a guide, not a fits every scenario tool. A novice, especially one following an instructor has not got a hell's chance of spotting someone flying in from the peripheral areas. |
Tend to agree with some of that, but I think the instructor should have stopped his group well away from the junction/fork. I did say "fairly fast", not flying or canning it. Also, this was a red run. Is there an arguement for proficient skiers to expect others on a red run, whether novices in a group or otherwise to have a basic understanding of the skiers code when it comes to uphill/downhill responsibility?
Still it shows how easily things can suddenly go titsup ! |
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Well I've not read the whole thread but I can report that, when I recently collided with MrsHigs, it was not "just an accident". Certainly not from her point of view.
I say 'collided' but in reality we just got a bit close and tapped poles. Or (again from her point of view) she fended off a pole swung wildly in her direction.
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