 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Spyderman, OK, OK, you're wonderful. And so, of course, is Kitty.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hurtle, Kitty is more wonderful surely 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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boredsurfin, more than likely!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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boredsurfin, Hurtle, Nah 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I came here for a fight.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| Now I know that medics require much less training, need to make much less intellectual effort, and require much less insight into the minds of the people they are dealing with, than ski instructors/coaches, but I observe the following characteristics of snowHead medics (and dentists and snowHeads in other, allied professions): they are unfailingly generous with their advice, they give the advice with good humour, they give it entirely unselfishly, they acknowledge that their word is not necessarily gospel, they are kind and gentle when required, they do not patronise their questioners, and they don't throw toys out of their prams. We are lucky to have them. |
and here i was thinking you were trying to be helpful, but that post shows your true mean spirited colours yet once again and says to me clearly that all you like to do is to stir things for your own amusement, shame on me for being hoodwinked...
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Only joking.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Oh dear - this does seem to be going all pear-shaped again.
Yes, BzK over the last month or two has been pretty dismal. Like kitenski (or whoever - not going back to check who actually made the comment), I assumed the absence of some of the regular pro posters was due to the season starting up in early Dec and them getting busy. But now it looks like it was something more.
I am frequently mystified though at how het up people get about BzK. Clearly some let the rabble-rousing done by SZK and CEM get to them way more than I think was merited. Those threads were both cheap and nasty, and frankly not worthy of industry professionals. So I ignored them - end of story. If they don't like BzK, then DONT COME HERE, and let those of us who do carry on! FFS this is a ski forum, so we should be able, nay expected, to discuss skiing. So easiski has a point there. I also find the sentiments in those threads very disheartening in that there were a number of others also laying into the level of discussion/argument here. Have they never read anything in any of the other areas, or any other fora? There may be the odd argument here, but that mostly comes out of discussing things on which people are trying to work stuff out and find a solution to a problem - and there may be more than one solution. But there's nothing on the level of back-biting that sometimes appears in Apres or the piste (e.g. SCGB threads, libertarians vs pinkos, almost any thread latchigo gets invoved in, etc. etc. etc.) - and even those are fairly tame by the standards of other fora I've looked at in the past (e.g. some of the rows on the BBC Radio 3 fora FFS).
However, the accusations of pros being slagged off by amateurs are a bit rich. The last major thread in which easiski was involved here involved her and Dypcydiver on one side and offpisteskiing and veeeight on the other, with almost no other contributors, and it was actually she who started throwing insults around (theory not practice, accusations of points scoring etc.). She was also flinging accusations of us being drunken yobs around in the other threads. There's a very simple rule in life: don't dish it out if you can't take it. Subsequent to that, and the bootfitters' - i.e. other ski professionals - rabble-rousing, there have been very few posts here from any of those four, which is a great shame, and skimottaret also joined in the boycott. I see that offpisteskiing and skimottaret have started posting again recently, which is greatly to be welcomed. Unfortunately it looks like easiski's toys are heading back into orbit, and after a promising Autumn, veeeight has taken his ball back again and ain't coming out to play. That's a shame, but no-one can be forced into doing something they don't want to do. I've had a lot of good advice and help from easiski, (and had friendly disagreements on many occasions too), and she has done a huge amount of unpaid work for snowHeads but IMO that does not confer unconditional license to rant and rave. If I had taken half as much offence from stuff that could have been taken to refer to me I'd have given up here long ago. I think most of us see veeeight as having the opposite problem - a skin that is way too thick - but could I suggest he reflects on how things were going towards the end of the autumn and consider that active engagement in what he is clearly passionate about is better than the occasional aloof/patronising comment from the touchline.
comprex has fair points about voluntary donation vs expectation, and but I see that as a riposte to a demand Megamum did not make, and it's a shame that wires seem to have got crossed there. The examples of pro bono internet advice from the sH medics, and IT pros generally, are good and it is a bit disquieting that the ski pros are starting to gripe about pro bono advice, but Hurtle's tone was rather too snide for that point to come through, on which I agree 100% with the "too much heat, not enough light" comment - and would add "think more, post less".
I think the problem is that those who get put off by BzK don't actually want to think. Vanilla question, vanilla answer, job done. But there's more to it than that. Thinking involves effort, and may result in different points of view. Then discussion to work out how those different conclusions may have been arrived at. Pros start with a much greater reservoir of knowledge than most of the rest of us, but (a point I've made before) it's arrogance of the highest order to expect your words to be accepted unquestioningly. Maybe that's just the scientist/academic in me coming through, but I've never considered it anything other than fair game to have to justify myself for any action in my professional life, and don't see that any other profession should be any different. Sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong, in which case I correct the error and move on. You probably should't want them to be accepted unconditionally anyway, as that shows the recipient isn't thinking about and aborbing what they're hearing, so if you're trying to teach something, that would probably be an indication of wasted effort anyway.
A discussion forum is for discussion.
Not lectures.
No-one has a monopoly on knowledge.
BzK-phobes are losers.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| Now I know that medics require much less training, need to make much less intellectual effort, and require much less insight into the minds of the people they are dealing with, than ski instructors/coaches, but I observe the following characteristics of snowHead medics (and dentists and snowHeads in other, allied professions): they are unfailingly generous with their advice, they give the advice with good humour, they give it entirely unselfishly, they acknowledge that their word is not necessarily gospel, they are kind and gentle when required, they do not patronise their questioners, and they don't throw toys out of their prams. We are lucky to have them. |
Oh dear oh dear. What an endearing post for any pro who felt like re-contributing to this forum. 
GrahamN, good post. I haven't taken the ball (which wasn't mine anyway) away, and I guess the pot shots from the sidelines of late were indicative of my frustrations that the route BzK had taken. To be honest, although I read the occasional thread on BzK, I am fairly unlikely to get as involved as I have been in the past with useful contributions, instead focussed my passion into real life clients who actually like being abused by me on route to making them great skiers! As well as writing more on other ski forums that want to engage in such discussions about technique, tactics, how to ski, how skiing works etc.
rob@rar, good post, well said.
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| The spirit is as it is because it has been burned. Here. |
comprex, nice summary! I see threads and discussions appear and fly past on BzK, I speed read them, and have zero inclination to post or contribute to them now.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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GrahamN,
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comprex has fair points about voluntary donation vs expectation, and but I see that as a riposte to a demand Megamum did not make, and it's a shame that wires seem to have got crossed there. The examples of pro bono internet advice from the sH medics, and IT pros generally, are good and it is a bit disquieting that the ski pros are starting to gripe about pro bono advice
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It would appear that you agree with what I said, but not the way I said it, which is of course your prerogative. It doesn't follow that I fail to think - not a fault of which I have often been accused in my life, it must be said - nor does it follow that to counter mean-spiritedness (catchphrase currently en vogue) with some sarcasm is necessarily a bad thing. One man's sarcasm is another man's snideness, evidently. Some people just don't like sarcasm: fair enough, each to his own. (Interestingly, though, sarcasm does seem to go down particularly badly in BZK. I wonder why.) Finally, I acknowledge that I post a lot, but you will find that most of my posts are quite brief and conversational - even though I favour the odd bit of punctuation and decent spelling and syntax - and some are extremely brief. I believe that befits a forum of this nature. In fact, if I may borrow your summing up,
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A discussion forum is for discussion.
Not lectures.
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Having said that, I have this very day hugely enjoyed and appreciated a long lecture of yours. So it would be churlish to ask you desist from lecturing me.
PS The notion of high-level backbiting on the Radio 3 forum is hilarious. I've never looked at it, but must definitely find time to do so.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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skimottaret,
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and here i was thinking you were trying to be helpful
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Actually I was. Personally, I think a good way of learning skiing from professionals is to pay for lessons on the mountain and, perhaps additionally, to buy books and videos about skiing; whilst a chat forum is for chatting. I have personally valued the amateur chat as much as the professional pronouncements (lately, just for example, from Kramer, GrahamN and Brian) and am perfectly happy - having learned my own lesson not to interfere in matters which are too technical for me - for professionals to chat to one another. However, I was and am prepared to discuss some sort of system that might accommodate professionals 'instructing' amateurs on the forum, if that's what some people want. But - leaving easiski out of this, because at least she owns up to being thin-skinned and because self-evidently she has contributed such an enormous amount to snowHeads and continues to do so - Megamum's misguided attempt to make peace and my equally botched attempt to be helpful were met by pronouncements here from two professionals. Those pronouncements made it clear that they considered their pearls of wisdom to be too precious to be cast amongst swine, that many snowHeads (including Megamum) were indeed grasping and greedy swine and that, in any event, they should not be expected to do something for nothing: I did not think it inappropriate to contrast such behaviour with the open-handed generosity of other professionals on this forum. That you and rob@rar should take this as a personal slight strikes me as being your problem and not mine. I was reacting to mean-spiritedness: the fact that I did not do this with sweetness and light does not make me the troublemaker you obviously think I am.
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comprex, I understand what you are saying. But some of the difficulties here have been between instructors.
Hurtle, I understand what you are saying, but my point in my post which caused easiski to get in a huff, was that us quacks can be a little bit more detatched because this forum is not about our day job, and is leavened by other things. I don't think you are always going to get agreement here between the pros on anything other than that they they don't disagree... 
In the meantime, those like Spyderman,, rob@rar, skimottaret , etc who continue to post here are a great help to be the site. Just wish this wasn't so often the sense-of-humour free zone of the forum. 
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You know it makes sense.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| That you and rob@rar should take this as a personal slight |
I didn't take it as a personal slight; how could I as I don't contribute much to BzK? I mainly read that section and try to ask sensible questions to develop my own thinking. You said earlier that you offer thanks to those people who have given advice you have benefited from. That is, of course, nothing more than common courtesy. But what you have also done is to sharply criticise other contributors who did not conform to your preferred style of discourse, stirring up a whole heap of bad feeling along the way. My comment last night was in frustration of your campaign along those lines continuing.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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stoatsbrother,
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I don't think you are always going to get agreement here between the pros on anything other than that they they don't disagree
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Doesn't matter if they disagree with one another, in my view, that's not the problem. Lots of professionals disagree with one another, the punters must simply exercise their own judgments, just as they have to in amateur-upon-amateur chat.
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In the meantime, those like Spyderman,, rob@rar, skimottaret , etc who continue to post here are a great help to be the site. Just wish this wasn't so often the sense-of-humour free zone of the forum
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Absolutely agreed.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Hurtle wrote: |
Doesn't matter if they disagree with one another, in my view, that's not the problem. |
What is the problem?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar,
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But what you have also done is to sharply criticise other contributors who did not conform to your preferred style of discourse
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Yes, indeed. However, I am waging no campaign to stir up ill feeling, I am merely reacting to comments as I read them. That's what people do on internet forums, I think.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar, sorry, should have said "a" problem. "The" problem - as I see it - is as outlined in my first post this morning. Plus, as stoatsbrother says, the over-portentous tone that obtains on BZK. There's nothing wrong with the odd throwaway remark and smiley - I have found the equivalent to go down well in some pretty high-level meetings I have attended and even a bit of sarcasm does no harm either.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| However, I am waging no campaign to stir up ill feeling, I am merely reacting to comments as I read them. That's what people do on internet forums, I think. |
Sure. And sometimes that reaction results in people, directly and indirectly, declining to post much more. Which seems to be the case in point. Surely BzK, of all the sections on snowHeads, is about ski technique & teaching, not about the process of contributing to an internet forum? There must be better places for that kind of comment and reaction? It's disheartening when substance loses out to process, and I think your contribution to BzK has too often fostered that.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| There's nothing wrong with the odd throwaway remark and smiley - I have found the equivalent to go down well in some pretty high-level meetings I have attended and even a bit of sarcasm does no harm either. |
Not the "high-level" meetings I've attended. It just tends to p1ss people off.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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We also don't want BzK to be so serious and austere that people are afraid to post.
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I think it is an unfortunate reality that a small number of negative posts will inflict far more damage on a person than can ever be repaired by any number of positive posts by others.
With that in mind, I have been very saddened by the criticism on this thread and others about V8's myth series and Fastman's meat and potatoes posts. 2 or 3 critical posts (by people that were not the intended beneficiaries in the first instance) is all it needed to stop people like that posting again, and once again, the silent majority lose out.
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| veeeight wrote: |
| ....... As well as writing more on other ski forums that want to engage in such discussions about technique, tactics, how to ski, how skiing works etc. |
Good luck on TGR.
For those who want to talk ski technique
http://forums.epicski.com/forumdisplay.php?f=5
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, You are of course entitled to your opinion as to the nature of my contribution, and I'm sorry if you see it that way. I agree that substance shouldn't lose out to process. But I don't see how a forum about ski technique (actually, it's supposed to be about "Technique tips and Ski School Recommendations") is or should be incompatible with the process of contributing to an internet forum. You've lost me there. Forgive me, however, I now have to take my leave and do some work.
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| Spyderman wrote: |
| We also don't want BzK to be so serious and austere that people are afraid to post. |
Absolutely agree. The section should encourage people to post questions and answers. I don't post as many answers as I feel I'm able to give because, as I said earlier, there is too much heat and not enough light in BzK. As a result I take much more from that section than I give; if other people act the same it's really not a good way to promote the long term vitality of a section like BzK.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Ray Zorro,
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the criticism on this thread and others about V8's myth series and Fastman's meat and potatoes posts.
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Not me, squire.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
Ray Zorro,
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the criticism on this thread and others about V8's myth series and Fastman's meat and potatoes posts.
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Not me, squire. |
Did I say it was you?
You appear to have your own methods to drive the professionals away.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Spyderman wrote: |
| We also don't want BzK to be so serious and austere that people are afraid to post. |
Absolutely agree. The section should encourage people to post questions and answers. I don't post as many answers as I feel I'm able to give because, as I said earlier, there is too much heat and not enough light in BzK. As a result I take much more from that section than I give; if other people act the same it's really not a good way to promote the long term vitality of a section like BzK. |
I think change is best effected from the inside. If you post you have an influence on the Forum, just by watching, things will not change. We need to readdress the balance, so that negative posts are very much the tiny minority, that's only possible by yourself and others getting involved, not just watching and only posting to moan about how bad things are. It's funny how Pro's that haven't posted on BzK for months are all of a sudden posting on this thread.
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You know it makes sense.
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Spyderman,
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It's funny how Pro's that haven't posted on BzK for months are all of a sudden posting on this thread.
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There certainly isn't much fun in BZK, but I do appreciate that not everyone ski's for fun
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Spyderman wrote: |
| I think change is best effected from the inside. If you post you have an influence on the Forum, just by watching, things will not change. We need to readdress the balance, so that negative posts are very much the tiny minority, that's only possible by yourself and others getting involved, not just watching and only posting to moan about how bad things are. |
That's a very fair point and I'll try to act on it. But I have to confess to being disheartened by the way things have been in BzK in the last two or three months.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| boredsurfin wrote: |
Spyderman,
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It's funny how Pro's that haven't posted on BzK for months are all of a sudden posting on this thread.
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There certainly isn't much fun in BZK, but I do appreciate that not everyone ski's for fun |
Skiing is such an ordeal, I don't know how anyone could do it for a living, the constant suffering, having to put up with skiing everyday and being paid to do it.
If it's not still 'Fun' then give up and get a degree in Burger flipping.
I had a Career Officer say to me once, 'Find something in life that you'd happily do for nothing, then find someone to pay you for doing it'
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Surely BzK, of all the sections on snowHeads, is about ski technique & teaching, not about the process of contributing to an internet forum? There must be better places for that kind of comment and reaction? It's disheartening when substance loses out to process, and I think your contribution to BzK has too often fostered that. |
Thank you, Rob, for finding the words I failed to last night.
| Hurtle wrote: |
| I agree that substance shouldn't lose out to process. |
Then please look back at your posts and see whether there is any evidence to support that "agreement". I'd wager 90%+ of your posts here (where you actually say anything) are about process and not substance. BzK is not incompatible with the process of contributing, but I am one of those interested in the substance who gets well pi$$ed off with interminable discussions about that process. An unfortunate hallmark of a subsection of lawyers, IME. And before you jump to point out the obvious contradiction, I am fully aware I am posting here on a thread about process - something I intend to stop doing forthwith.
| Ray Zorro wrote: |
| I have been very saddened by the criticism on this thread and others about V8's myth series and Fastman's meat and potatoes posts. 2 or 3 critical posts (by people that were not the intended beneficiaries in the first instance) is all it needed to stop people like that posting again, and once again, the silent majority lose out. |
Quite. I was amazed that anyone should have any such criticism. To the extent I decided those threads deserved only contempt and were not worth commenting on at the time. Possibly a mistake in retrospect.
boredsurfin, it would appear that different people have different definitions of fun. Apologies if I've missed any, but I don't remember any positive comments from you about BzK. You seem to be of the belief that improvement through self-analysis and directed training, with discussions on boards like this, is incompatible with having fun. I would say that repeating the same moves, making the same errors each time is condemning one to skiing tedium. I get the the biggest kicks from doing something I've never done before, completing a course faster than before, skiing a slope I wouldn't have been able to do last year or doing it with much improved fluidity. The day I stop learning is the day I'll look for something to do instead of skiing.
Unfortunately it looks as if "sensible"(?) discussion is being forced over to Epic. I'm not sure I'm quite that anal (OK, no need for so much disagreement with me on that ), but if so it'll be the end for me on BzK and probably sH as well. Time flies too fast to address more than one forum.
I'm out (well, just from this thread....for now)
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Wed 30-01-08 10:21; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| veeeight wrote: |
| I see threads and discussions appear and fly past on BzK, I speed read them, and have zero inclination to post or contribute to them now. |
Shame. And for the other guys that have stopped posting.
I post when I feel I can add something useful to a thread but don't get drawn into 'technical' discussions - I just don't have the time.
It's a shame that there isn't a bit more tolerance on the site. I appreciate that some may find the style and tone of others an issue, but for the most part WHAT they say has real value.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Wed 30-01-08 10:40; edited 1 time in total
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brian
brian
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GrahamN, good posts.
I still don't understand why the boot boys started their (by the looks of things, successful) campaign to nuke BzK anyway ? I can understand why people don't like or care to read pages of detailed technical argument. I completely fail to understand why they want to spoil the ground for those who do.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Ray Zorro wrote: |
| Hurtle wrote: |
Ray Zorro,
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the criticism on this thread and others about V8's myth series and Fastman's meat and potatoes posts.
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Not me, squire. |
Did I say it was you?
You appear to have your own methods to drive the professionals away. |
Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Hurtle, IMHO writes from the heart, writes with sense, and in general fight/writes fairly. Yes some may not agree with what she writes, but this is an open debate and as such folks will either debate back, or take the huff.
I have actually enjoyed some of the debate and postings in BzK over the past few months and hope that some way can be found to keep it going in the current format. I also think that the experts should be the ones to dictate the direction of the section. Fastman's name pops up here, and I have to say that as the cause (inadvertently) of one big fall out, I conversed via PM with him and he seemed a thourougly nice fella. It's good to talk.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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brian, Good point ( and the same one you made 5 pages ago!http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=839280#839280 ) and those same people have had no input in this thread,
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Hurtle, IMHO writes from the heart, writes with sense, and in general fight/writes fairly. Yes some may not agree with what she writes, but this is an open debate and as such folks will either debate back, or take the huff. |
Unfortunately I think there's a third option: just not bother posting at all. I think that's the option which most people take, and I think it's the one which most threatens the future of BzK as a useful place to discuss technique and teaching.
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So, where do we go from here?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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GrahamN, I would like to respond to your comments BUT as you say
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I'm out (well, just from this thread....for now)
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there is little point, shame eh!
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Frosty the Snowman, Back to where we were before this thread was started.
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FAQ
