 Poster: A snowHead
|
| Pyramus wrote: |
| .... but I still recon the downhill guy pulled off an extremely bad move by closing the door entirely... |
What a load of complete tosh. What you don't get is the bloke in front can choose any line he likes, he does not have to choose a line to suit someone behind, that's the responsibility of the person behind to avoid them.
If you're going to St Anton please crash into Stanton and then do it again...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
I didn’t post anything on the main topic here because the answer was crashingly obvious and others explained the reasons very well.
However on the topic of pole clicking 
I’m with rob on this. To my mind if I am behind someone that I should ski in a way that they have NO NEED to know that I’m there. That means I pass in a way that they can safely do anything that isnt absolutely stupid or I wait. In that case the click would just serve to say “don’t do anything absolutely stupid” which is hardly likely to help the situation. The alternative meaning is “I’m behind you and not fully willing to abide by The Rules so could you please make allowances for me”. That’s not good either for - I hope - obvious reasons.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Pyramus wrote: |
Maybe a few pole clicks would have saved the day?  |
If you're close enough to hear the pole clicks there is no time to react, not that you should have to react. Another reason why it's a stupid thing to do.
I was airlifted to hospital once as a result of a skier crashing in to me from behind. It would be nice if people were generally a bit more respectful of other slope users, especially those in front of them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
'Newbies' have more than enough to think about just concentrating on one thing without everything else falling apart. Being expected to glance uphill as well just in case there is a nutter approaching at high speed will not help them in any way at all. It's 35 years since I was in that position and I still remember it. A little bit of empathy would not go amiss - we were all beginners once.
Please let us know where you're planning your next trips, so that we all know where to avoid going.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
This is worse than the first video. Skiing in-between a moniteur and his pupil on a private lesson and then arguing about it just makes the skier posting the video a total dickhead. And if you think that's even remotely not 100% his mistake, then there's no hope for you.
Except as a troll.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I find it mindbending that there are people on this site who would spend a second debating this... uphill skier at fault without hesitation. If it was you being the downhill skier and someone smashed you into pieces coming from behind you would not debate this, would you?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| irbis wrote: |
| If it was you being the downhill skier and someone smashed you into pieces coming from behind you would not debate this, would you? |
Tbh I honestly find it odd peoples' reaction to this..
There is plenty of evidence that points to the the downhill skier making certain manoeuvres as if no one exists behind them as contributing to near misses or collisions. The two video clips are just examples but there are no doubt hundreds/thousands of such near misses or collisions every season.
In that second example, we would have the moniteur at the hospital bedside of his student explaining its not his fault. Fact is, he's in hospital. The moniteur has just "assumed" we don't have d**k swinging skiers pelting down the piste and they are all nicely following the FIS rules.
I honestly do ski with awareness of what is behind me, if I'm going to pull off a hard sudden turn or cross perpendicular directly across a busy piste, I would look first, it's just common sense no?
They should actually teach that to learners and not just assume everyone is sensibly following FIS rules.
Not sure why this viewpoint enrages people so much. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ok, I’ll bite. In the second one, what exactly do you expect the student to do with the knowledge that there is someone coming from above? If you’re traversing slowly across a slope, it’s not as if you can change direction quickly, & stopping won’t help. This is a perfect illustration of why the responsibility is solely with the uphill skier, & that you’re either a troll or completely clueless (or both, or worse).
I think I might be in a minority on the first one, though, not because I don’t think the overtaking skier is at fault (he is, 100%) but because I think the one coming from the right is skiing like a prick. (I guess it’s possible that others also think this, but aren’t saying so for fear of giving the wrong impression to a troll.) Personally I would never ski that close to the edge of the piste without checking for someone coming from above at higher speed, or close the gate on someone overtaking without good reason. Less still would I change direction like that in order to go closer to the edge. However, in my view the guy filming loses all right to feel aggrieved at this (what I consider) poor skiing the moment he makes contact—the moment, in fact, he does anything other than brake or change course to avoid the person crossing, however badly they’re skiing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| Pyramus wrote: |
Tbh I honestly find it odd peoples' reaction to this..
|
I'm still astonished by this opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| Pyramus wrote: |
In that second example, we would have the moniteur at the hospital bedside of his student explaining its not his fault. Fact is, he's in hospital. The moniteur has just "assumed" we don't have d**k swinging skiers pelting down the piste and they are all nicely following the FIS rules.
They should actually teach that to learners and not just assume everyone is sensibly following FIS rules.
Not sure why this viewpoint enrages people so much. |
I think because you have these two paragraphs in the same post; you’re arguing that the person abiding by the FIS rules who is likely a less-experienced, less-skilled or more cautious skier now also has to be taught to consider the non-rule-abiding skier travelling at high speed. I’d argue that the onus is on the one breaking the rules to be taught to follow them then everyone would be safer.
… and I say this as someone who has had to slam on the brakes or make a hard turn away a few times when trying to overtake at the side of the piste when someone has unexpectedly closed that space.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I will agree that the downhill skier isn’t helping himself by ‘closing the door’.
The unwritten FIS rule is that everyone else on the mountain is a nutter; so ski like you’re going to be overtaken by a nutter who wouldn’t be able to stop.
The rules are irrelevant when you’re injured, they don’t make it hurt less.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| Legend. wrote: |
| Pyramus wrote: |
Tbh I honestly find it odd peoples' reaction to this..
|
I'm still astonished by this opinion. |
Me too! It verges on the unbelievable.
Anecdotally, I was skiing in Mayrhofen many years ago, perfect pistes, clear day. Skiing down a wide red piste that forked (straight on and left).
A ski group of youngsters led by an instructor was ahead. The instructor stopped his group at the fork entrance to the side of the piste. His group (of 10) subsequently started slowing and then stopping uphill of his position which effectively and rapidly closed the left fork route.
I had taken a fairly rapid trajectory towards the left fork that was by then almost completely blocked. To avoid any collision, I threw myself to the ground. No harm to anyone, particularly the youngsters! I remonstrated (once on my feet) with the instructor who’d allowed his group to stop uphill of him and, consequently, blocked a piste. He was wrong to have allowed that situation to develop. However, there’s absolutely no doubt that, as the uphill skier, had the outcome led to a collision/injury to anyone in that group, it was me that would have been responsible. And quite rightly too.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| Cacciatore wrote: |
| Legend. wrote: |
| Pyramus wrote: |
Tbh I honestly find it odd peoples' reaction to this..
|
I'm still astonished by this opinion. |
Me too! It verges on the unbelievable.
Anecdotally, I was skiing in Mayrhofen many years ago, perfect pistes, clear day. Skiing down a wide red piste that forked (straight on and left).
A ski group of youngsters led by an instructor was ahead. The instructor stopped his group at the fork entrance to the side of the piste. His group (of 10) subsequently started slowing and then stopping uphill of his position which effectively and rapidly closed the left fork route.
I had taken a fairly rapid trajectory towards the left fork that was by then almost completely blocked. To avoid any collision, I threw myself to the ground. No harm to anyone, particularly the youngsters! I remonstrated (once on my feet) with the instructor who’d allowed his group to stop uphill of him and, consequently, blocked a piste. He was wrong to have allowed that situation to develop. However, there’s absolutely no doubt that, as the uphill skier, had the outcome led to a collision/injury to anyone in that group, it was me that would have been responsible. And quite rightly too. |
YES!
Explained in a nutshell.
I think this thread can be closed now (though you may need to delete your account, as you are far too sensible for this knobbery)!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
@rob@rar, Personally think pole clicking / gentle verbal communication does have a place and could be viewed as courteous in some circumstances; especially on narrow cat tracks where inexperienced skiers / boarders are scraping / snaking / skiing erratically. Most of the time they are either scared or concentrating heavily on the immediate track below them, so any other peripheral awareness / hearing is effectively null and void - we've all been there as beginners! A more experienced skier behind them patiently 'waiting' for a safe opportunity to pass (because mimicking the beginner could actually create an additional problem behind themselves with less patient souls) and making them audibly aware of your being (with a pole click) could be the difference between an unnecessary accident or a safe passing manoeuvre. It can also be used with a 'thankyou / merci' as you actually pass them . . .I constantly witness experienced skiers silently 'fly' or straightline down cat tracks; this can have the effect of scaring the living sh*t out of the beginner below, make them panic and then ski even more erratically!
On a standard piste with more room for manoeuvre then agree the above is unnecessary (and usually inaudible anyway) irrespective of the erratic skier below; totally the responsibility of the skier above to ensure a safe pass well away from the skier / boarder below.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Belch wrote: |
| A more experienced skier behind them patiently 'waiting' for a safe opportunity to pass (because mimicking the beginner could actually create an additional problem behind themselves with less patient souls) |
I call horseshit. What ‘problem’ could conceivably be caused by patiently skiing a safe distance behind a slow skier on a cattrack?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
@JayRo, lol - another 'n' skiers skiing patiently behind them! Never happens - not in the real world! Anyway - the point was on pole clicking not semantics . . .
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Quote: |
another 'n' skiers skiing patiently behind them! Never happens - not in the real world!
|
Actually I'd say this is the norm. Waiting until there is suitable opportunity to go past. I'm sure most of us have "got stuck" behind a ski school snake for example.
I think pole clicking always comes across as a bit rude. Perhaps I just relate it to clicking fingers to get someone's attention. It also doesn't really help the situation as it provides no useful information.
On flat narrow cat tracks where everyone is going slow and just riding straight not turning I do appreciate an "on your left/right". Sure, I have right of way, but surely working together to all get where we want to go as safely and efficiently as possible is the goal.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| boarder2020 wrote: |
| On flat narrow cat tracks where everyone is going slow and just riding straight not turning I do appreciate an "on your left/right". Sure, I have right of way, but surely working together to all get where we want to go as safely and efficiently as possible is the goal. |
This
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
The pole-clicking and/or verbal communication to get the attention of a slower skier on a cat track is just entitled and rude. The downhill skier has absolute priority and can ski any way they choose, including in a way that makes it impossible to pass them safely. So just slow down and have some patience.
Had this last year with an idiot overweight fellow brit with an over-inflated sense of his ability. My son had to take drastic action to avoid a collision as this idiot attempted to overtake him, as did my daughter who was skiing in front of him. We had slowed down as there was a beginner kid struggling down with his instructor. Said idiot was severely remonstrated with, especially when when he insisted he was in the right and didn't cause any issue anyway. NB I am an instructor and the two of my kids involved are ski racers, there was no doubt it is only their high skill levels that prevented an accident. Idiot had shouted "passing left" as he made his attempt, clearly expected my kid to move right as a result, and then had a bit of a slip/loss of control when attempting to do so. Insisted he was a "very good" skier as well, which provided us with a good laugh when we happened to see him from the chairlift later on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I hadn't thought of clicking sticks as rude. In fact I thought it was the polite thing to do. All it does is inform the person in front that you are there. I would prefer to hear it rather than have someone suprise me. If you see me skiing along in front of you and you may be overtaking then please click your sticks just I know there is someone behind me as I may not have heard you approaching.
I suppose I'll have to develop my "Ahem" cough a bit more.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@zikomo, yes the downhill skier absolutely has priority noone is disputing that. However, on a long narrow flat cat track where everyone is simply holding their slow speed not turning I see no problem with an "on your left/right" as you overtake at a close but safe distance at a walking speed. It's no more rude than an "excuse me", you are simply letting them know you are there. Your example is completely different, where someone is using verbal communication as a "get out my way" thing which I'd agree is rude.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
@boarder2020, how many languages are you going to use when declaring “on your left/right”? And what do you expect the slower skier to do with that information, if you manage to get the communication right?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
if I'm going to pull off a hard sudden turn or cross perpendicular directly across a busy piste, I would look first, it's just common sense no?
|
Yes it is commonsense - and I will often "hand signal", having glanced uphill, before shooting across a piste. But that's the same as saying that it is commonsense to slow down gradually before driving round a corner. But if the car in front of you slows down so fast that you run into the back of him it's still 100% your fault.
If I'm aware that I'm driving a winding mountain road at an annoyingly slow speed for the Frenchman behind me I will await a suitable straight, with good sight lines, and slow right down and signal right - so he can pass me, invariably with a "toot" on the horn. I would do the same if skiing a narrow track, but I now have the ability to glance behind, choose my line, stop somewhere sensible. If there are erratic, tense, beginners in front of me, I'll wait. Just as I would wait, for miles if necessary, to overtake a slow vehicle on a difficult stretch of road. Just chill, and don't drive up the chuff of the vehicle, or skier, in front!
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| zikomo wrote: |
| The pole-clicking and/or verbal communication to get the attention of a slower skier on a cat track is just entitled and rude. The downhill skier has absolute priority and can ski any way they choose, including in a way that makes it impossible to pass them safely. So just slow down and have some patience. |
Yes yes, of course. But. I often give a verbal or non-verbal signal, sometime clicking poles (although my carbon ones don't make so much noise) as a courtesy to the person I'm overtaking. I'll often do so right on the edge of the track in a space they won't be expecting anyone, so I think it's polite to let them know I'm there and avoid startling them. I don't think I've ever thought about interpreting a warning as a 'get out of my way' demand, and really, does anyone actually expect the downhill skier to move for them?
I've spent more than my fair share of time on narrow paths with novice skiers, and usually stay behind them as a blocker, and I'm not a small guy,making wide regular turns to make absolutely sure that anyone coming behind is fully aware of me and my charge(s). If they have the skill to get past me then fair enough, if I've intimidated them by my presence then that's fair enough too - I don't want unconfident people skiing past my group, TYVM - but I'll pull the group over at the next turn or wide section to let them pass.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| rob@rar wrote: |
| @boarder2020, how many languages are you going to use when declaring “on your left/right”? And what do you expect the slower skier to do with that information, if you manage to get the communication right? |
Language isn't really important, the noise direction is enough. What I expect them to do is absolutely nothing, just warning them of my presence so they won't be surprised and potentially feel they should do something when I appear over their shoulder.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| @boarder2020, how many languages are you going to use when declaring “on your left/right”? And what do you expect the slower skier to do with that information, if you manage to get the communication right? |
Language isn't really important, the noise direction is enough. What I expect them to do is absolutely nothing, just warning them of my presence so they won't be surprised and potentially feel they should do something when I appear over their shoulder. |
I was clicked at over Christmas. Had no idea what direction it came from, left or right, and by the time I registered what the noise was the skier was in the process of passing me. It was an entirely pointless noise, and I considered it disrespectful. Which I think any reading of the Skiers’ Code would tell you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
How do we know the skier we are pole clicking to or speaking to is not deaf or has some sort of hearing impairment? It seems to be making quite a few assumptions, that some others on here clearly disagree with and no doubt other issues would be raised when addressing the whole skiing population, that may or may not be accurate (they are assumptions after all), and just because you feel this way does not mean the person skiing ahead of you does and surely therefore it is not the right thing to do?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
@Legend., with a helmet and the usual noises all around you, most people are a bit hearing impaired when skiing, and should be entirely focused on what’s in front of us rather than trying to listen to odd noises coming from behind us.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| rob@rar wrote: |
| @boarder2020, how many languages are you going to use when declaring “on your left/right”? And what do you expect the slower skier to do with that information, if you manage to get the communication right? |
Well the vast majority of my piste skiing is done in N america so language isn't really an issue. An "on your left" or "bar coming down" is normal and just common courtesy. But then again people even manage to queue for lifts out there so maybe the culture is a little more friendly 
I actually said I prefer the person behind me to let me know. My response is to hold my line and not turn into them. Yes I realise they are responsible, and it doesn't give them the right to ski dangerously, or the expedition of people to move out their way. But surely a little communication to try and prevent an easily avoidable accident is not a bad thing?
Again I'm just talking about narrow slow flat cat tracks where everyone is moving in straight lines at a pretty pedestrian place just trying to get to the next bit of piste/lift. For downhill stuff I'd agree simply slow down and wait for a better passing opportunity, if you have to give a warning you are too close, and likely past them before they've heard it and had time to react anyway.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| boarder2020 wrote: |
| For downhill stuff I'd agree simply slow down and wait for a better passing opportunity, if you have to give a warning you are too close, and likely past them before they've heard it and had time to react anyway. |
I think that also applies on cat-tracks.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
The key is to keep your speed up and timing your pass as they complete their turn.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| AL9000 wrote: |
| The key is to keep your speed up and timing your pass as they complete their turn. |
Indeed, although you must be able and willing to scrub off that speed, as frustrating as that might be on a cat track, if it's not possible to overtake someone in front of you in a safe, and IMO, respectful manner.
The biggest problem I see on the slopes is people not having sufficient respect for other slope users. It's not about having a lack of control, it's not about carving skis enabling everyone to ski faster, it's about not respecting the people around you and acting accordingly. Pole-clicking or shouting a warning from behind is one, small, manifestation of that, IMHO.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| rob@rar wrote: |
| AL9000 wrote: |
| The key is to keep your speed up and timing your pass as they complete their turn. |
Indeed, although you must be able and willing to scrub off that speed, as frustrating as that might be on a cat track, if it's not possible to overtake someone in front of you in a safe, and IMO, respectful manner.
The biggest problem I see on the slopes is people not having sufficient respect for other slope users. It's not about having a lack of control, it's not about carving skis enabling everyone to ski faster, it's about not respecting the people around you and acting accordingly. Pole-clicking or shouting a warning from behind is one, small, manifestation of that, IMHO. |
+1
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
I have tended to give a friendly/polite heads-up (usually only to members of my own group) if overtaking on a cat track with a low enough speed differential that it’s going to take a while, at about the point where my tips are going to overlap their tails, especially if that’s a while before they’ll see me if not actively looking behind. & I’m starting to think that I shouldn’t, because if I’m completely honest with myself I think that even such a ‘polite’ call probably does have something of a sense of ‘please stay out of my way/leave me room/don’t close the gate on me’. I’m coming to the view that if I can’t safely complete the manœuvre without relying on or asking for compliance from the person ahead (even in as minimal a form as holding their line), I shouldn’t be making it.
Ultimately I don’t think there’s an entirely clear distinction between a (‘friendly’) ‘know that I’m here, leave me space/hold your line’ and an (‘aggressive’ or ‘entitled’) ‘let me past’.
& yes, some people absolutely expect the downhill skier to move, change their course or leave space for them to pass.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| JayRo wrote: |
| Ultimately I don’t think there’s an entirely clear distinction between a (‘friendly’) ‘know that I’m here, leave me space/hold your line’ and an (‘aggressive’ or ‘entitled’) ‘let me past’. |
I think that's right. Even a signal given in a friendly, intended to be helpful manner can easily be interpreted as entitled-BS or as something-to-worry-about by a nervous skier.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All this talk of "politely" making clicking poles or calling out something when passing something is completely unnecessary. Either you can pass safely, while still allowing the downhill skier to make any voluntary or involuntary movement, or you cannot. If you feel letting then know you are there is necessary or helpful, then by default you cannot do so. It's quite simple really. The problem arises because people either consciously or unconsciously think they should be able to ski at a speed that suits them. Many find that hard to admit, which is why you get such equivocation on these matters. If everyone skied with the simple thought in their head that the downhill skier always has the priority, and allowances (within your skill set) to allow for them to make any movement at all, then the slopes would be a much safer place.
I should not have to ski defensively, constantly checking uphill to see what idiots are doing. Nor should I have to allow space at the side of the piste for idiots who are gooing to fast for their ability. I should not have to teach my children and students to do so either. I do though. But woe betide you if you even come close to causing an accident with me or anyone I am responsible for when you are over-taking. Or even if you make it necessary to take avoiding action. It is very unlikely that I will not be able to catch up to you and it is a certainty that when I do any suggestion it was the fault of the downhill skier will be dealt with very firmly. I sometimes wonder if the unwillingness to confront these days is part if the issue tbh.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| rob@rar wrote: |
| ...I considered [skiers clicking their poles] disrespectful. Which I think any reading of the Skiers’ Code would tell you. |
Politely letting someone know you're there seems within the spirit of the FIS rules to me.
What did I miss please?
The stick clicking folk seem to me to be a bit like cyclists using a bell. It only works if it's done and interpreted politely, surely?
We've heard from those who think other skiers are "idiots", but are there any actual nervous skiers here who can tell what it's like being disrespected in this way?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| phil_w wrote: |
| What did I miss please? |
The part which says the uphill skier is responsible for passing the downhill skier in a safe manner.,
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
).
