@Judwin, thanks, but none of that answers any of my 2 questions?? I am well aware of charging curves!
The published max charge rate for the Model3 is 250Kw - and the graphs show it can only take that up to (about) 20% charge. So no it can't take 350Kw even in the narrow (5-20%) charge window where it can take 250Kw.
No idea on the heat pump.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
To achieve 350kW an Ionity charger is pushing out 800v, which (unless I've misunderstood Tesla charging), a Tesla can't accept.
I'm not sure what the max amps is at 400v for an ionity, but its possible that, for charging a Tesla, a 350kW ionity will be slower than a 250kW Tesla charger since the latter kicks out a higher current.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Porsche Taycan, Hyundai Ioniq 5 and 6 are the cars I know that have 800v. Nominally if all the stars align (battery temp, low starting SoC, no sharing of power across the chargers) then the Ionity will give my ioniq 5 a full beans 225kw. It then has quite a deep charging curve (much deeper than tesla) that will keep it charging pretty hard up to and beyond 80%.
Reality is you don't see that often, but in summer the rapid DC charging was v quick - quick toilet/buy sandwich and you're done. In winter it is slower (I don't have the pre heating pack) and rarely seeing much over 100kw but I think that is often the Ionity chargers throttling as all other cars at the station are 50-90 max. As long as it's higher than about 65KW when required out and about I can still live with that as I mostly charge at home.
You would really want it to be hitting the big speeds on a road trip to the alps though so agree a big diesel is still the perfect tool for these winter trips - unless you have v good pre-heating on the battery pack.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Tue 28-02-23 10:20; edited 1 time in total
The last few posts prompted me to look in a bit more detail at charging curves. I was surprised at how the ultra rapid (100 KW+) charging rates seem to only apply for a fairly small range. Based on these Tesla Model 3 figures , it looks like you only get max rate up to maybe 20%, then after ~50% you're probably below 100 KW.
As an owner of a Hyundai Kona (Max official rate 75 KW, though I've seen it get to 82 KW), this makes me feel less jealous, as it can maintain 75KW up to 73% charge. On long range trips (that need multiple charges), we typically stop to recharge from 20-30% to 70-80%, which is a stop for 25 to 30 minutes for every 2 hours driving. Based on the model 3 charging curve, it looks like it would be no more than 5 minutes faster for this type of stop, despite having a max charge rate of 250KW v. 75 KW
@Viv yes it will be interesting to see some degradation stats in a few years but I suspect what you've described - Hyundai allowing the BMS to charge at higher speeds for longer than Tesla is a symptom of Tesla having to be conservative to offset the fact that they make/display more of the battery pack to be available - smaller buffer. This lets them advertise and display a higher range for a lower number of battery cells (cost!).
I'd rather have the Hyundai approach of increased charging speed all the way through to 80-85% that is useful every fast charge you do, rather than a headline additional 30-40 miles of range. the realistic 230-250 mine delivers is more than enough before needing a loo stop plus really fast DC charge back to 80%.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
kitenski wrote:
@iainm, Does the 2019 M3 have a heatpump? Also interested in why she thinks Ionity would be much faster? Surely it will depend on the chargers surely? ie a 250kw Tesla charger will be faster than a 150kw one, and Ionity go to 350kw but can the Tesla M3 accept that charge rate?
I wasn't too sure about that either, but I've not tried ours on a Ionity.
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Here's the original episode about driving EV to the alps on Ski Podcast - Iain had me on, as we've been driving electric for a while, and find it pretty straightforward.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/1R2W3LSoui7pNWMjorqq60
We also create a list of ski hotels with EV charging in the carpark (there's a link to our EV-to-the-Alps resource within the podcast info).
We don't drive electric because it's cheaper. It isn't (yet) due to expensive cars/batteries.
It's just the right thing to do.
France being so heavily nuclear (70%) adds to how clean your drive is (less so in coal-heavy Germany, although they're quickly kicking the habit).
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Always rent diesel on long Euro trips.
Do 1000 miles on a tank of juice.
Stop-start every 150 miles in the freezing cold is for losers.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Thu 7-09-23 23:52; edited 1 time in total
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@snowdave,
Quote:
I only get around 200 miles on a tank,
What are you driving? Even my BSA A65 did more than that (but my arze did less)
Sadly the only ways I can see for electric vehicles to be practical for anything more than school runs and commuting (which to fair is all that most car journeys are) are for either a battery exchange system. You drive into the service station your battery is swapped out and a freshly charged one swapped in like the busses in Zermatt. Or for pantographs and cables above the road so you can draw power as you drive. I think these are alreaddy being planned for lorries so why not bigger ones for cars
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
johnE wrote:
@snowdave,
Quote:
I only get around 200 miles on a tank,
What are you driving? Even my BSA A65 did more than that (but my arze did less)
Wow, that’s some thread back-scrolling to ask a q!
AMG merc. I’m exaggerating slightly, it will do 280, but since autoroute petrol stations aren’t located every mile, and at peak times queues can be horrendous, just like with an EV, my distance between refuelling points is shorter than the theoretical range of the car.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
The new version 4 Tesla Super Charger has an output of 350kW (though currently limited to 250kW), and could allow cars to be charged at 1400 miles* per hour
So a 700 mile trip journey down to a ski resort could (in theory) require as little as 30 minutes' charging time. I've spent longer than that queuing for fuel on the autoroute...
* miles of range
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:
Sadly the only ways I can see for electric vehicles to be practical for anything more than school runs and commuting (which to fair is all that most car journeys are) are for either a battery exchange system.
As has been proven on here many times, that is completely incorrect, modern EVs are highly practical, less tiring and very enjoyable ways of doing long European tours.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@kitenski, nobody has ever provided any reasonable evidence to me that a EV vehicle capable of frequent stops on a long journey and then long charge cycles is an enjoyable alternative to diesel/ petrol car for trips to the Alps, I certainly wouldn’t consider it based on current tech and infrastructure.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
kitenski wrote:
Quote:
Sadly the only ways I can see for electric vehicles to be practical for anything more than school runs and commuting (which to fair is all that most car journeys are) are for either a battery exchange system.
As has been proven on here many times, that is completely incorrect, modern EVs are highly practical, less tiring and very enjoyable ways of doing long European tours.
I've had an EV since the beginning of March. During Spring and Summer temperatures since then I've averaged a real-world range of about 305 miles for a 'full tank', which is for a fairly typical driver of 14,000 miles p.a. with a mix of motorway and urban driving. It's rare that I do more than 275 miles in any single day's driving, so since I've owned the car I've only charged it while I've been away from home on three separate days, with the longest charging period I've needed of 22 minutes. I'd say that for the vast majority of days it's actually more convenient for me to refuel my EV compared to previously owned petrol or diesel power as it takes me a few seconds to plug the car in at home, with no need to visit a petrol station at all. On those days when I've needed to charge away from home the car has planned the route to include charging stations, told me how long I'd need to plug the car in for, monitored whether the chargers were in service or not, and monitored how busy it was as I was driving my route. It couldn't have been easier. The reality of these very short stops for charging is that you don't have enough time for a sit-down meal if that's your intention. Once the car has reached the required level of charge it's likely than you need to return to it and unplug otherwise you might have to pay idling fees, disrupting a longer, more leisurely break.
I've not driven the EV to the Alps yet, but will do so in early December. All the route planning apps I've used indicate that it's easy to do the drive in a single day, arriving in Les Arcs around 8.30pm rather than 7pm as I normally did with my previous diesel cars. In the grand scheme of things that time difference is irrelevant even if the real world journey adds another 90 minutes to an already conservatively planned timetable. Perhaps I'll even feel a little less tired as I've taken more rest time on the journey that I used to. On the drive to the Alps there are a dozen or more high speed charging stations along the way, and at my destination there are six slow speed chargers within a few minutes walk of my apartment should I need a top-up while I'm there.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Markymark29, read this thread, plenty of evidence that it works, is enjoyable, doesn't need "frequent stops" and isn't pumping dangerous particles into the atmosphere. Granted it may not be for you, but for others (myself included) it's a much more enjoyable, relaxing drive. I've done 20k miles in my Tesla, still waiting to experience "long stops" to charge, mostly by the time I've been to the loo and got a coffee/lunch the app has told me to return to the car as it's ready to go! With the new v4 chargers and the huge Euro charging stations around I'm actually looking forwards to a Euro trip.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Having driven last year for the first time and actually enjoying it over flying for various reasons, we’ve now switched to a Model Y so will be interesting to see how it goes. We split the trip already so don’t have any massive drives. Looking at the planner it’s going to add around an hour to the longest leg but then we would normally be stopped for that long for breakfast / lunch etc. Now the fun job of trawling all the threads for hints and tips
Dreadful experience for my wife yesterday, I’d driven the car leeds->Manchester and back before she then went to Nottingham & back yesterday so needed a motorway charge. Didn’t even have time to get a cup of tea in Starbucks before the car alerted her that it was ready to go! Too fast charging and only a 250kw Tesla station
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@kitenski, I’m not saying it isn’t for me, I’m saying the infrastructure and battery tech isn’t there yet and as such I don’t consider it an option,much in evidence by the queues at motorway charge points in Germany. I filled up in Austria and once at an Autohof near Mosel and we stopped a couple of times for comfort breaks when I saw the queues at the autobahn charge points. Just arrived back in North Yorkshire and have half a tank left having achieved brilliant mpg in my diesel car, with bikes on top adding drag, and never went above 130kph.
We did 600 miles in 9.5 hours St Anton to Europoort Rotterdam on one of the busiest days of the years in Germany, the key to it imv is keeping moving rather than queueing and drinking coffee whilst waiting - so no I don’t believe that type of journey timing would be possible in an EV. France may be ready, Germany it appears less so.
Also possible to charge on P@O ferry or is that another stop in Holland before boarding?
@Markymark29, Actually I probably agree with you for certain EVs, but not for Teslas, they really have spent time and money and thought on their infra and battery tech/car efficiency. The car tells you when and where to stop, dynamically, so if a Supercharger station is looking likely to be busy it will give you the opportunity to re-route.
This is a screenshot from 13:44 showing live availability of charging slots from an area of Germany I quickly scanned. The numbers in red are currently fre stalls., the one I clicked has 20 stalls each with 250kw max charging so a tesla would be stopping their 10 mins maybe for a standard charge on a journey.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@Markymark29, oh and looks like it would take you an hour longer overall today with 2 charging stops (I don't believe you can charge on the Ferry). It definitely is driving with a different mindset IMHO, but lots more relaxing & enjoyable IMHO, but understand it's not for everyone.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@kitenski, I certainly wouldn’t be happy of having 7% charge left with potential Autobahn holdups.
Also leaving mid afternoon on a Sunday is completely different to peak time departure Saturday morning on the last holiday weekend. I know it could be argued that why travel at peak times but work return dictates!
We’ll agree to differ, hopefully in 5-10 years it may be different but until then it’s not a viable option for me.
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@Markymark29, yup get that, it's not for everyone, those % are always taken with a huge pinch of salt and the car will dynamically re-route if it needs to. I'm sure things will change massively in 5-10 years and there is no way EV will be the *ONLY* solution going forwards....
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
I don't believe it's correct to say that the charging infrastructure isn't there in Europe. In my experience, it's significantly better on motorways that in the UK. Plus Tesla have opened up some of their chargers (including Albertville) to all EV users.
5-10 years is way out for a reasonable timetable, it's changing dynamically by the month
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Markymark29 wrote:
@kitenski, I certainly wouldn’t be happy of having 7% charge left with potential Autobahn holdups.
When we first got an EV, this was a concern of mine, but I learned over time that it’s not the problem to be. Part of the mindset shift that kitenski refers to.
Generally, heavy traffic means much slower travel, which means much greater efficiency and range. If your car thinks it’s down to 20miles of range at 80mph, and you hit some 10-20mph traffic, your range is now over 50miles. If it’s very hot or very cold, you might have to tweak the climate control settings, but only on extreme temperature days. Apart from that, an EV in heavy traffic is vastly better than an ICE in heavy traffic.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@snowdave, I've also found (at least with Tesla) it seems to charge more than is really needed, so I often get home with more charge than it was telling me I'd get at the start of the trip. I've also had trips where I was avoiding charging and the car at one point said stay below 70mph to avoid charging.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
snowdave wrote:
When we first got an EV, this was a concern of mine, but I learned over time that it’s not the problem to be. Part of the mindset shift that kitenski refers to.
+1.
None of the concerns I had before buying an EV have been realised in the six months I've owned one. I agree that you need a different mindset about using an EV as your main vehicle, but it's different not worse compared to how I used my previous ICE cars. For days when I drive less than 250 miles (a very large majority of my time) it's actually more convenient than driving an ICE. For days when I drive more than 250 miles a bit more forethought is required, but with a multitude of helpful apps plus the car's navigation system this planning takes almost no thought at all. If your concern is a long drive from A-B, in the UK or to the Alps, I don't think there's any problem as high speed charging infrastructure is already very good, especially if you have a Tesla, and is improving at an accelerating rate. It's even better on the Continent than it is in the UK at the moment. I know a few people who have made several ski trips to the Alps in an EV without any issues at all, so I'm not anticipating any problems when I do the same this winter.
I think more of a problem is the relative lack of slow-speed 'destination' chargers if you intend a driving holiday based in a rural location as there are still too few holiday properties geared up for overnight charging for their guests. I'd exclude major ski resorts from this definition as I think they are installing these facilities pretty quickly. In some rural places this could mean major diversions just to charge the car, so looking for a hotel or AirBnB which has dedicated charging facilities would be first priority in those circumstances (or the ability & permission to plug in your 13-amp granny charger). None of this is impossible just requires a bit of planning, part of the mindset change that @kitenski refers to.
That's not to say that EV owning is right for everyone. At the moment I'd say it only works for those people who have a dedicated parking space & charger that they can use on a regular basis, at least three or four times a week for four hours or so, either for free, perhaps through work, or at cheap domestic rates. Relying on public charging for week by week driving is going to be too expensive and too inconvenient for most people. I'd certainly not do it, and I'd recommend nobody else does it either. It's great to see supercharger stations popping up left right and centre, but I think we need much more investment in kerb-side charging in residential areas if EVs are to become normalised for most personal cars.
Of course, it's not as if driving a petrol or diesel powered car to the Alps is 100% guaranteed to be hassle free. I've had a couple of trips were I've been very concerned about fuel shortages across France, and had to spend more than an hour in a queue in Bourg St Maurice to fill up for the drive home. In the UK the last time there were fuel shortages we weren't able to use one of our cars for six days because we couldn't get petrol for it. Frustrating for sure, but not a good enough reason to say that ICE cars aren't a viable option for me.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I've just realised that ICE no longer refers to In Car Entertainment.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
johnE wrote:
I've just realised that ICE no longer refers to In Car Entertainment.
Took me a little while as well, when I first started to think about ICE v. BEV.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
rob@rar wrote:
kitenski wrote:
Quote:
Sadly the only ways I can see for electric vehicles to be practical for anything more than school runs and commuting (which to fair is all that most car journeys are) are for either a battery exchange system.
As has been proven on here many times, that is completely incorrect, modern EVs are highly practical, less tiring and very enjoyable ways of doing long European tours.
I've had an EV since the beginning of March. During Spring and Summer temperatures since then I've averaged a real-world range of about 305 miles for a 'full tank', which is for a fairly typical driver of 14,000 miles p.a. with a mix of motorway and urban driving. It's rare that I do more than 275 miles in any single day's driving, so since I've owned the car I've only charged it while I've been away from home on three separate days, with the longest charging period I've needed of 22 minutes. I'd say that for the vast majority of days it's actually more convenient for me to refuel my EV compared to previously owned petrol or diesel power as it takes me a few seconds to plug the car in at home, with no need to visit a petrol station at all. On those days when I've needed to charge away from home the car has planned the route to include charging stations, told me how long I'd need to plug the car in for, monitored whether the chargers were in service or not, and monitored how busy it was as I was driving my route. It couldn't have been easier. The reality of these very short stops for charging is that you don't have enough time for a sit-down meal if that's your intention. Once the car has reached the required level of charge it's likely than you need to return to it and unplug otherwise you might have to pay idling fees, disrupting a longer, more leisurely break.
I've not driven the EV to the Alps yet, but will do so in early December. All the route planning apps I've used indicate that it's easy to do the drive in a single day, arriving in Les Arcs around 8.30pm rather than 7pm as I normally did with my previous diesel cars. In the grand scheme of things that time difference is irrelevant even if the real world journey adds another 90 minutes to an already conservatively planned timetable. Perhaps I'll even feel a little less tired as I've taken more rest time on the journey that I used to. On the drive to the Alps there are a dozen or more high speed charging stations along the way, and at my destination there are six slow speed chargers within a few minutes walk of my apartment should I need a top-up while I'm there.
I had a EV (Audi Q4) as a company car for about a year (handed it back when i switched jobs in June this year), and agree with most of what is said here.
Driving an EV is a practical experience, but you do need to change your way of thinking / driving / planning journeys. I did, and I enjoyed the experience.
One point I would highlight though, rob@rar quotes "during spring and summer temperatures" as his real world range. In my non-Tesla EV experience, the real world range does take a significant (circa 20/25%) hit in the cold winter weather. This would need planning in, and accepting that it will likely add an additional stop en-route to the Alps.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@jellemr, Maybe a crazy question but I've heard this a lot - is the 20/25% drop off in winter due to more heater usage etc, or because the batteries are less efficient in cold weather? Perhaps they could be better insulated? Either way not good given that i'd be wanting to bash the autobahns in winter, and one of the reasons I feel the tech isn't there yet.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Markymark29 wrote:
@jellemr, Maybe a crazy question but I've heard this a lot - is the 20/25% drop off in winter due to more heater usage etc, or because the batteries are less efficient in cold weather? Perhaps they could be better insulated? Either way not good given that i'd be wanting to bash the autobahns in winter, and one of the reasons I feel the tech isn't there yet.
Personal experience only (I'm not technically minded!), battery efficiency related rather than heater related.
I used to have aircon on throughout the summer, and then a heater on in the winter, so am (probably wrongly) assuming that they would impact range in a similar fashion.
"Wanting to bash the autobahns" isn't wise in an EV. I found that speed had a massive impact on range - , maybe 10/15% difference in range between driving at 70 and 80mph.
It varies, depending on whether the car has a heat pump as one example plus its efficiency etc. what car did winter testing the Tesla model y lost about 10%. Ice cars are similar, crank the heat or aircon will reduce mpg.
@kitenski, Like my first old style mini in 80's....had to turn off the aircon/ heater when I wanted to overtake going uphill (yes someone had retro fitted a/c in it).
@jellemr, 80/85mph for 2-3 hour stints between WC breaks, 2 people sharing the driving, 600 miles in 9/10 hours, one fill up half way there is my measure of where a car needs to be if driving to the Alps. Going over old ground clearly, apologies - like I said somewhere above its a 5-10 year timescale I think to achieve that with current EV tech.
@Markymark29, cold affects different batteries in different ways due to different chemistries. These things change very quickly and new, more advanced, solutions are being rolled out as we speak.
Tesla is not best in class despite all the hype. It pioneered many solutions but implementation is far from what tesla claims to be. The best thing with tesla - it pushes legacy makers forward. I would look at something else than a tesla and with more engineering pedigree and experience - eg tesla’s y direct competitor mb eqb or others. Eagerly awaiting the new audi q6.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Still to migrate to BEV and been on a fence for the last 2 years. Accidentally my brother got his MB EQB as a company car, a switch from a high powered ICE suv. He was “nervous” about the switch but only after 10 days of daily use he is a happy bunny and surprised how quick and easy the transition was for him
After all it is free
After all it is free
Quote:
Eagerly awaiting the new audi q6
@mooney058, Mmm - sounds expensive!
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Markymark29 wrote:
Quote:
Eagerly awaiting the new audi q6
@mooney058, Mmm - sounds expensive!
I would think VERY expensive.
I really liked my Q4, but I certainly wouldn't have put £52k of my own money into owning one.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
mooney058 wrote:
@Markymark29, cold affects different batteries in different ways due to different chemistries. These things change very quickly and new, more advanced, solutions are being rolled out as we speak.
Tesla is not best in class despite all the hype. It pioneered many solutions but implementation is far from what tesla claims to be. The best thing with tesla - it pushes legacy makers forward. I would look at something else than a tesla and with more engineering pedigree and experience - eg tesla’s y direct competitor mb eqb or others. Eagerly awaiting the new audi q6.
I would say the best think with Tesla is the charging infrastructure - they have it absolutely nailed, and it is far superior to everything else available (in the UK at least).
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
Took me a little while as well, when I first started to think about ICE v. BEV.
(yes someone had retro fitted a/c in it).
