 Poster: A snowHead
|
If the blue along the ridge didn't exist and I had to pick I'd take Bivouac and side-slip the whole thing and get in everyone's way 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
As pam w and foxtrotzulu imply: surely "groomer" is one who grooms. The slope has been groomed.
But the word "groomed" is all wrong anyway.
Pistes are not groomed: they have been scraped, pounded, and flattened. Assaulted would be accurate. Bashed is an acceptable euphemism.
Groomed they are not. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
@Jonpim, +1.
Google translate has " to groom a piste": à toiletter une piste . 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| iSnowhead wrote: |
| If the blue along the ridge didn't exist and I had to pick I'd take Bivouac and side-slip the whole thing and get in everyone's way |
See I discovered that sideslipping icy stuff can go horribly wrong, thought about turning, decided to side slip, lost edges and lay down the few extra degrees, then spent a while organising which way was up. At least it was easy to get up again. .. Proceeded onwards with carefully executed short turns telling myself to man up and get on with it. Lazy relaxed skiddy turns not effective. The culprit did have "experts only" but it was a black and several others (and the canazei resort reds - possibly as they cut up a bit) also had the sign. Cross not to have gone back and conquered it but OH wasn't supposed to be dragging me down blacks this year and he was more worried than me. My leaat favourite piste was a flat blue where you had to carry speed but was patchy ice and softer stuff so an edge catch at speed was a risk. Groomed Italian style black pistes are better than flat narrow paths! Numpty factor is lower and most are capable of skiing the thing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
I don't personally understand this obsession with black runs, I remember obsessing about it myself when I was advancing through the years (I am speaking wholly as a twice possibly three times a year holiday 'tourist' 
It was all about, 'yeah skied three blacks and two tough reds today' (what I really meant was I got down them somehow), whereas I should have spent more time on my technique on a range of slopes....
For a good few years now I go out of my way to find a decent pitch wid-ish red run where I can practice what makes me feel good - starting to try and really carve my turns at speed - I am at the very low end, but proper enjoy the feeling of being on rails and not skidding....then if I want to practice quick turns I can do that too....just find the right pitch for me and picture a channel about 3 metres wide down which I have to stay during my run, If I encounter a bisuier than I want it piste then I don't do it lol just go find another one.
Now surely that must hold true for most skiers even those super advanced - go and find something that makes you feel good....most resorts have off piste areas where you can do as you please if you're good enough (which I'm not), and if its super steep you're after the surely you would go to somewhere that can offer such things ? Verbier/Chamonix?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
I try to do at least one black run per holiday - often scouted by OH as my SIL and various others get obsessed by the colour of the poles and forget how to ski. Psychologically not building them up works for me - all his idea but works for me. He will generally wait behind me so in a position to pick up scattered possessions but doesn't follow too close so he can ski it at his own pace.
I like the challenge of getting down a long black in 1 push which generally means I'm standing up and not getting back, but also enjoy starting to carve, playing with turn shapes and so on. Also enjoy the travelling around part of areas like the Sella Ronda and 3 valleys.
Not good enough and lack the fitness and mountaineexperience for off piste but would like to learn in future. NA style resorts sound good for learning off piste skiing skills without needing to be as good in the mountain environment.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
Pistes are not groomed
|
I get the impression that's an American term. I;ve not noticed people talking about "groomed" slopes when I've been skiing. "Bashed" is the most common word (after all, they are piste-bashers), followed by "pisted". Or, if talking to French people, or asking pisteurs, "damée".
Stanton always talks about "brutal grooming" but I'm not sure he counts....
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Randomsabreur wrote: |
| my SIL and various others get obsessed by the colour of the poles and forget how to ski. |
I know! If OH says, "Do you want to do the black or blue/red?" I will always say not black. If he says we're going down here, I just go - and don't look at the colour.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I find it hilarious that they are damée by engins de damage
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| tangowaggon wrote: |
| ...black runs that are regularly groomed are, without argument, easier to ski than they would be if they were left to build moguls as they were 20+ years ago... |
I'll prove your 'without argument' assertion wrong by arguing.  Which one is easier depends very much on the skier and their experience. I've skied more in the USA and Canada than in Europe, and resorts over there tend to leave most of their steeper slopes ungroomed; as a result, I'm much less comfortable on a steep groomer than I am on a steep slope slope that's covered with bumps or powder.
Here's a picture that I posted in another thread a couple of months back; it shows three ways down from the Sublette chair in Jackson Hole. Your options are: Bivouac, the steep single-black groomed run on the left; Wally World, an easyish double-black through the centre trees; or Cheyenne Bowl, a massively mogulled single black to the right.
I personally find Bivouac, the groomer, by far the most challenging of these runs. It's typically massively polished and icy, and a tiny mistake will leave you hurtling helplessly like a missile to the bottom. If, like me, your technique is less than perfect, you don't have a chance of edging properly on the ice-sheet and the whole thing is a heart-in-mouth horror-fest.
Cheyenne Bowl, by contrast, is a joy: soft forgiving moguls that leave you gasping for breath with screaming quads but a grin from ear to ear. If you fall, you get snow in every orifice - but nothing bad happens because the powder stops you. Wally World through the trees is much steeper and more challenging, but I still find it much easier to stay in control there than I do on the groomer.
So I disagree. There is definitely room for argument. |
I nearly made something like this point myself but decided the argument, although valid, was a bit thin. Under some circumstances where a black has been groomed ( The rest of my family are horse mad and to "groom" a horse is to brush out all the lumps of mud and other bits to leave the surface smooth and even, I have no issue with the term grooming apart from those using computers, er, oh, well, maybe not  ) when the snow has been wet, then it freezes overnight leaving a flat sheet of ice in the morning, then, yes, having a few bumps could make it easier.
For this picture, I would do it three times, once in the bumps, once in the trees and, if there was no-one else on it and the snow was softish I would do the groomer in big carving turns using the full width of the piste. In many (not all) resorts in Europe you would not have this choice, all pistes would be groomed and the trees would be fenced off as a nature reserve! (This did actually happen to one of my favourite bits of offpiste tree skiing in Soldeu)
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| tangowaggon wrote: |
...For this picture, I would do it three times, once in the bumps, once in the trees and, if there was no-one else on it and the snow was softish I would do the groomer in big carving turns using the full width of the piste. In many (not all) resorts in Europe you would not have this choice, all pistes would be groomed and the trees would be fenced off as a nature reserve! (This did actually happen to one of my favourite bits of offpiste tree skiing in Soldeu) |
Quite. I totally agree with you. We all have our preferences, but variety is the thing that makes a great day in the mountains.
That's why I find myself agreeing with the original post in this thread. I'm not interested in going to a resort that has 100s of km of me-too runs. I want variety. I want some runs with bumps and others as smooth as a billiard table. I want some runs with trees and others without. I want some runs that are terrifyingly chute-like and narrow, and others that are like a motorway. I want steep runs and shallow runs; pistes that have been perfectly prepared but also gnarly trails with natural obstacles; gullies and natural half-pipes but also something a little less challenging where I can really let rip. The only thing that I never want to see is a large crowd of fellow skiers.
Surely I'm not close to being alone? Why do so few European resorts cater for skiers like me who want it all without the need to hire a guide? Give us some genuine blacks! To quote Stanton (something you will very rarely hear me do), Stop the Brutal Grooming.
If only Jackson Hole were in the Alps...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| ... Looking through a pile of piste maps I have here from years gone by I can't see a single example of where black runs are labelled as 'expert runs.' They are labelled as 'difficult', which is an entirely different concept. |
I think you've led a sheltered career:
http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/infoandadvice/article.aspx?articleID=98
| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| ...If others have 'bitched' about experts skiing a black quickly then I presume its not jealousy, but because they feel endangered. |
I'm sure it is the latter, and my point is that if you're unable to deal with the heat, then the kitchen isn't a great place to be.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| Quote: |
Surely I'm not close to being alone? Why do so few European resorts cater for skiers like me who want it all without the need to hire a guide? Give us some genuine blacks! To quote Stanton (something you will very rarely hear me do), Stop the Brutal Grooming.
|
@Jonny Jones,
Agree with this and with the original poster.
It seems to me that the arguments with the OP have fallen into two categories firstly that the runs haven't become much easier and there has always been pisteing secondly that this is desirable.
I disagree with both.
I am not sure when the cut off was for pisteing but I started skiing about 30 years ago and probably started on black runs about 3 or 4 years after, certainly in the resorts I skied I never recall any being pisted and many red runs were unpisted. This is not of course to say that in no resort were any runs unpisted but I suspect it was the exception in those days to piste black runs.
Since then I have seen in some resorts bumped red runs get pisted and turned into black runs, in some resorts the majority of the black runs have been turned into ski routes, in at least one resort the difficult blacks have disappeared all together.
Is this important or a bad thing?
Well it seems there are two lots of people who imply criticism for those of us who dislike all this grooming they both imply we are willy waving one is form people who want to be able to ski the runs but cant unless they are pisted the other is from people who think that unless you can carve down a prepared run at any angle you have no right to complain.
For myself carving is something I do to a roast and though I wish I could ski a little better the ability to carve a steep piste or probably even a green properly is something I will never do and will just have to live with.
But the homogenisation of pisteing every slope means that there is far to little variation throughout the pisted slopes in many ski areas in my view. Features like moguls in pinch points gave pistes character which many entirely lack nowadays, we are skiing on piste in euorbland zone.
It is all very well saying you should get off piste for many this is not possible at all times. The majority of holiday insurance specifically does not cover you if you re off piste or off piste without a guide. Many of us ski with partners or families where the opportunity to ski even slightly more difficult slopes can only be taken alone, skiing slopes that are off piste or not patrolled or safeguarded is not always advisable. Some on sH: suggest you should never stray a mm off piste without avalanche transceiver probe and shovel, not within the budget of everyone skiing. Where do you send your kids for the afternoon who are competent skiers but cannot assess the dangers off piste.
Lets cut back on this grooming that is turning far to many resorts into blandness unless you stray from the piste.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
@Jonny Jones, @T Bar, whilst go1996 possibly had a point that I initially came across as a bit of a knob, you both sum up my point really well. It's alright saying go to N America but that's out of my price league and the resorts in Europe that I visit are often dictated by where others are going, despite what I have said, I would rather ski with good company on mediocre pistes than on my own in a top resort.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
@foxtrotzulu, Fair enough comparison because normally everything groomed turns into ice after a certain hour unless it's warm.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
My $0.02's worth: black runs are now groomed for the simple reason that they can be. Before the advent of winch cats, it just was not possible to groom those steep slopes.
Whether or not that is a good thing is a matter of opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
@ulmerhutte, The Chamossiere black in Morzine was being winch groomed (infrequently) at least as long ago as 1988.
@T Bar, - firstly. I totally agree with the sentiment of your post... - I started skiing ~44 years ago (admittedly only in Scotland until my teens) - the first time I recollect consciously noticing a corduroy piste was the White Lady, Cairngorm in (I think) 1985. I don't recall Cairngorm leading the way in technology other than snow fences.
I think you need to quote examples. I can't think of anywhere that has regraded red to black. Not that I've been everywhere of course! I can't think of anywhere that I frequently ski where black runs have become itineraries.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
On further reflection; I guess resorts groom extensively because their mgt believes it creates a more attractive product. At least some presumably check that belief with customer surveys.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
[quote="Jonny Jones"]
| tangowaggon wrote: |
Surely I'm not close to being alone? Why do so few European resorts cater for skiers like me who want it all without the need to hire a guide? Give us some genuine blacks! To quote Stanton (something you will very rarely hear me do), Stop the Brutal Grooming.
If only Jackson Hole were in the Alps... |
I'm with you here. I think for too long most European skiers have seen skiing as purely an 'on piste' activity, as there's very little encouragement from resorts to ski anything else, and racing was always seen as the ultimate challenge. It's mainly been manufacturers, films and magazines who've brought ungroomed stuff into the spotlight.
However in the last couple of weeks the resorts here (Montafon) have been putting up new ski route markers to show people where they can ski ungroomed safely - previously I think they were marked on the map, but definitely not on the ground. And - I'm well aware I'm being selfish here, but I don't particularly care - this has turned what used to be almost never skied powder stashes into massive bump runs. I LIKE bumps, but I like untracked snow much more!
Though frankly by far the scariest things I've skied have been groomed, polished, shady black runs first thing in the morning following warm spring temperatures the day before (especially Dolomites last year). It would be fine (though still not my idea of fun) if they were empty, but they're generally full of people sliding around with no control, and a total inability to get an edge in - even on piste skis. I just don't see the fun in that. Same slopes with bumps would be much more fun, and would prevent all the out of control death slides of people hurtling sideways at you. Apart from the very small percentage of skiers (almost always locals) who use real or near race skis, I don't think anyone really gets much enjoyment from slopes like that?
OTOH, there are places in the Alps with no/little grooming, though not really the big resorts. Zwolferhorn in the Salzkammergut regraded all their pistes to ski routes so they didn't have to groom anymore 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
@ulmerhutte, this might be backed up the number of recent threads bemoaning the lack of piste bashing during times of heavy snow this season.
I've seen a number, here is one I could find.
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=2666522&highlight=kitzbuhel#2666522
There is quite clearly more than one camp in this argument, maybe there is a middle ground?
My suggestion would be that at times of heavy snowfall, except in situations hazardous to safety (avi control etc), that 75% of black pistes at any given resort should be left 'au naturale' for a period of 3 days? (more or less??)
If there is say a 'significant' (10cm+?) level of snowfall on day three then this period is reset and it won't be groomed for another 3 days. However, if no significant snowfall occurs then the tracked out, icy, mogully piste which at that point could be quite unpleasant (at least to myself) is groomed until a significant snowfall occurs. This would mean that the piste should stay in condition for the later season and also give more potentially easier skiable area when conditions lack in other areas of the resort.
Just a thought and maybe highlights the reasons why pistes are groomed. Looking after the pistes by grooming definitely helps to elongate the resorts season length and having more open and in good condition pistes late in the season is definitely a motive for skiiers and resorts alike. (how many people ask on here about late season choices?)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Calling a black run a black is pretty arbitrary and completely dependent on conditions.
In Val Thorens, goitschel the black run, after a bit of snow is a relatively easy run. It can be hard if it has been used a lot when there has been no snow for a while. Whereas The Col, which is a red run, after a strong wind has blown the snow cover off to leave ice can be a very hard run. Much harder than Goitschel. They often leave signs out 'for good skiers only' in those conditions.
I suspect that they make Goitschel black, partly for its steepness but also because people like going back from their holiday saying they did some black runs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| emwmarine wrote: |
I suspect that they make Goitschel black, partly for its steepness but also because people like going back from their holiday saying they did some black runs. |
😄 I suspect that there is quite s bit of truth in that - and resort mgt knows it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Quote: |
I can't think of anywhere that has regraded red to black.
|
In Les Arcs Rouelles used to be marked as red and now it is marked as black.
Mind you Reches used to be black and is now red
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
There are too things that are taken into account during grading - steepness and exposure, conditions are generally not taken into account since they change neither steepness nor exposure, although warning signs are common when conditions demand so. Plus runs are rated relative to each other, so blacks in one resort can be less steep than reds in another. Some blacks seem to be rated so that to flatter visitors, but then it usually happens in resorts with generally easy skiing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
I'm not sure what difference do colours make? I just find a steep piste and have fun on it (or not) regardless of what it is graded at. Sure, my ego was boosted when I did my first black ever, but since then it has been irrelevant. I always ski the whole resort anyway.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| Quote: |
I always ski the whole resort anyway
|
Not sure if I have ever managed that. There is always at least one run shut (normally the race course) and several runs that just don't seem worth it.
Actually talking about steep bashed runs I have never done the flying K at Les Arcs. Thinking about I cannot recall seeing it open for a number of years now.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
Actually talking about steep bashed runs I have never done the flying K at Les Arcs. Thinking about I cannot recall seeing it open for a number of years now.
|
I might have tried this on my old 200cm super g skis but not on carvers! 
| Quote: |
Looking after the pistes by grooming definitely helps to elongate the resorts season length
|
Whilst getting the early season snow consolidated by grooming definitely helps to establish the snow base, I have often seen 6" of new snow quickly scraped off a steep groomed piste wheras moguls naturally hold the snow.
| Quote: |
There is quite clearly more than one camp in this argument, maybe there is a middle ground?
|
@AthersT, Your solution is rather complex, the solution for me would be that all resorts have at least small percentage of their runs as never groomed (other than early season consolidation) these runs would not be major "route" runs and easily bypassed, they would also be clearly marked on maps and signs as such. 30 years ago, if you saw a black on the map you would expect it to be top to bottom moguls when you got there, now, you would expect it to be flat and moguls would catch you out.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| under a new name wrote: |
| I think you need to quote examples. I can't think of anywhere that has regraded red to black. Not that I've been everywhere of course! I can't think of anywhere that I frequently ski where black runs have become itineraries. |
Back to my Saas Fee example where someone else already picked up that a couple of blacks had been lost to the mountain/glacier, even just digging through old piste maps, we bought there in 2010, and on that map I have 15A, 10C, 7 and 6A marked black, all of which are now marked yellow (ski route). There are also now blacks missing from the top of Egginer down to the bottom of 15A. Notable blacks are now one down from Spielboden (easier than the following red as always groomed, and the plattjen black section, again always groomed and usually therefore pretty icy by lunchtime. That's about it, plus more like 7 or 8 ski routes, so more ungroomed than groomed blacks if you look at it that way, based on a piste map 4 or 5 years old.
There are also short sections of red (where there is a route round), that were Red when I skied at Xmas, and then marked black in Feb of the same year. (much to the shock of one in our party who is obsessed by piste marker colour rather than the slope itself). Can confirm slopes were no different.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
@under a new name,
| Quote: |
I think you need to quote examples. I can't think of anywhere that has regraded red to black. Not that I've been everywhere of course! I can't think of anywhere that I frequently ski where black runs have become itineraries.
|
I honestly think that the majority of resorts that I have skied on more than one occasion (though not absolutely all) have examples.
I first skied Tignes /Val D'Isere in about 1985 Within the Tignes sector I can only remember two black runs. One was Trolles which extended from Mur de Parquettees the other was Vallon de La Sache. Since then Leisse, the runs from Col des Ves, campanules and silene have all been upgraded from red (silene has also had its name changed from the rather more controversial cocaine.)The 1989 Good skiing guide also states that the Sache was upgraded to black so I presume it had been red.
There were upgrades in V D'I as well.
In Zermatt virtually every black run on the map which was in place when I first went (about 1987 I guess) is now a ski route, one of the trickier reds is as well. There are a couple of balck runs marked which I seem to remember as red but cannot be certain. On the last trip I went the black runs that existed were pisted flat. There are on a quick look at the piste map now 12 itinaires in Zermatt most and probably all of them were marked pistes on my first visit ( I remember some as being distinctly tricky).
I first skied Davos in 1990 on my last visit all the difficult black runs from the top of the Klosters cable car had quite simply disappeared, nothing marked at all. There had been two or three Drostobel and something else from memory. A previous bumpy red run that I skied there became successively black and then a ski route which was actually pisted on one visit.
Ischgl which I first skied about 1993 has upgraded at least a couple of runs from red to black most recent being 14b.
In St Anton several of the runs off the Valluga and elsewhere were black pistes and have been upgraded to high mountain routes . On my first visit this had happened and there was only one black piste left in the resort following these upgrades, there are now several. I last went a few years ago and don't really remember what the black runs had been or if they were new but they certainly were not as steep as the Valluga runs.
In Verbier I seem to remember the red run from the top of the Mont Fort cable car has been upgraded to black and the route from the col de Gentianes to Tortin was once black and is now an Itinaire
3V have not visited for a long time other than Val Thorens but I seem to remember that there were three couloirs from the top of Courchevel all of which were black pistes now there is only one marked, might be wrong as I never skied any of them?
Serre Che first skied this in 2000 and in all honesty it is about the most unchanged place I can think of though even here the Isolee piste has been rerouted to avoid a tricky bit. Most of the blacks are bashed and a couple of blacks have gone though this is due to the lift going.
Val Cenis had a black removed from the top of the area down towards the lac after my first visit.
There are others I could name but will that do as a start? Mos of these are from memory but some backed up from old copies of The Good skiing guide so memories are occasionally fallible but I am pretty confident the majority are accurate.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
I've kind of lost the thread, but that's actual data, which is nice. I'm surprised at the Zermatt stuff - it looks like they simply switched all their harder stuff to be "itineraries"? Does that mean they're not controlled/ patrolled? If they do that, then the OP's question is simple: all the blacks are now "itineraries". I claim the prize.
Looking at this though, which is American focused, perhaps gives another clue:
http://www.skinet.com/ski/galleries/top-ten-resorts-grooming
They're all basically flat resorts, not where the hard core go. Go there and whine here, or just go somewhere you like?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Some un-pisted black have become pisted due to the growth of winch-grooming (mainly pandering to the egos of the not-quite-good-enough).
Some blacks have become itineraires since the "freeride" scene arrived and it's seen as more appealing to the twin-tip teens.
Some blacks have been abandoned for operational or budget reasons (the resort can't be bothered to support them and don't believe their loss affects ticket sales).
Some blacks have been sanitised by "re-profiling" of the mountain to the point where they have to be downgraded to red (Nyon in Morzine for example, RIP).
The sum total of these changes has impacted I would say 1/4 of the blacks in the PdS in the last 30 years.
Most people don't miss them because if you're good enough to enjoy them you'd rather be off-piste.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
@cameronphillips2000, Doesn't look that steep to me
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
As you can see, they're not so keen on the groomed pitch, grazer's left
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| shep wrote: |
| Some un-pisted black have become pisted due to the growth of winch-grooming (mainly pandering to the egos of the not-quite-good-enough). |
I've seen winch anchors alongside red pistes in Chamonix, so either winch grooming is common across all grades of pistes or Cham red pistes are as steep as black pistes in other resorts.
That said, because of the poor snowfall this season, the Marmottons blue piste at Brévènt was closed until a couple of weeks ago. Since this left only one blue piste open on that mountain, one of the red pistes was turned into a blue by way of acquiring blue piste markers (it remained otherwise unchanged from previous seasons).
All of this just indicates the fluidity of piste grading not only across resorts but within the same resort.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
No doubt some macho forum armchair skier will say 'Doesn't look that steep to me' |
Have to confess it doesnt look very snowy to me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Health and Safety rules have obliged winch grooming all over the mountain. It's safer for the operator, but has led to the ban on using the pistes at night, since a cable strung across the piste at neck-height is not conducive to safe tobogganing  .
I've seen runs change colour when the piste-side restaurants change hands. No-one wants a restaurant on a red run!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| T Bar wrote: |
| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
No doubt some macho forum armchair skier will say 'Doesn't look that steep to me' |
Have to confess it doesnt look very snowy to me. |
Hasn't been bashed to make it more gnarly....
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
