Good steered turns vs. good carved turns - which is harder?

A snowHead

meh,

A snowHead

Masque, personally I think that "half truth" pitches the explanation at the right level. Your take seems more like trying to describe chemistry using physics. Perfectly feasible but far too verbose and misses the wood for the trees.

Plus with the initial reaction you gave to jimmer's post it's very hypocritical to complain about people making devaluing posts.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

meh, I posted a reply in kind with disrespect to the individual(s) rather than disrespecting the whole thread. What is the "right level" when in already quite informed discussion on the difficulties and differences between carved and steered turns? Posting a dubious 'half truth' or better described as 'mostly bоllосks' by someone who DAMM well knows better devalues the whole thread.

I don't pretend to tell someone 'how' to turn and while I may be verbose . . . an animated illustration would do the job in 3 mins but take 3 weeks to draw and render, not got the time right now . . . it is the shape of the ski and the physics involved that ALLOW your input to steer or carve a turn. Ignore them by all means, just don't let a steaming turd of a post point people into doing something contrary to the physics and has the potential to hurt them. A remote potential, but there are plenty of readers who don't post and may well go away and try what they've read here rather than get instruction.

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Masque, two wrongs don't make a right. Why not behave as an example? There is no need to act the back bottom all the time.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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jimmer,

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Masque, this whole thing seems to about a lack of reading comprehension because nowhere does jimmer say anything like the things you insinuate.

Yet again your answer to perceived rudeness is to be rude yourself... rolling eyes

After all it is free

meh, having re-read the thread . . . I don't believe that I have miss-interpreted jimmer's original post. I am harsh with him as I've read some of his posts where he's demonstrated an understanding of the sport but here he's just been a dismissive **** in a thread that will be read but not commented on by many readers struggling to understand the language and physical demands of our sport. He's repeatedly insulted and made assumptions in regard to the OP and posted truly crass and unsuitable advice on what everyone here describes as an 'advanced' skill. I've gained the impression that he knows what he's doing on the hill and he's fuelled my ire on his apparent insouciance toward the OP . . . Of course it may be that all he knows about adjusting a carved turn is to "incline more" . . . in which case . . . Why the **** is he posting here?

Perhaps I need the love of a good woman to dull my edges wink

. . . Na, booger that, I just need more snow time Toofy Grin

Masque, I really don't think you have re-read the thread as the insinuations you've made are not supportable.

Given you're complaining about rudeness towards someone don't you think your behaviour is deeply hypocritical? Particularly as the pair of people actually involved made up almost immediately.

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meh, I'll turn it down to '10' Little Angel

. . . still doesn't make his humbug about carving any better, or any less potentially harmful rolling eyes

I feel that his original rudeness extends to all reading this thread who are struggling to get onto their edges from steered turns.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

Masque, this will be my last post in this thread as it's getting a little silly now. You have accused me of 'repeatedly insulting the OP', I only questioned whether she could carve once, is that an insult? It's just a question, and one very pertinent to the topic of this thread.

The comment about inclination was not to describe how to do it, but explain that tightening the radius is possible.

Your posts are full of contradictions - you're angry that I was 'rude' to megamum, yet you are much ruder to me, you ask 'why the **** am I posting here' if I don't know what I am talking about, yet defend the OP's right to post here. And most of the rest is just putting words in my mouth and creating ridiculous strawmen, as meh says, I think you struggle with reading comprehension.

The whole topic of this thread was not how to carve, but whether it is harder than a skidded turn, I answered appropriately to that question.

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Masque, I can't be bothered with this thread any more either but I have to say that I agree with jimmer's, analysis in that final post. The initial question was a simple one and I think it's true to say that there an almost complete consensus amongst those who have posted, from instructors and experts to ordinary punters such as The Flying Gooseberry and I that carving a turn is harder than steering a turn. Simple question, simple answer. It's not insulting to suggest that somebody can't carve a whole turn. I freely admit it, and I've been skiing a lot longer than the OP. And you can't blame instructors who are prepared to put in time on this thread for being a trifle exasperated if people suggest they don't know what they are talking about.

pam w

I'll defer to your gentleness. It's frustrating to get into an argument/discussion with someone who cannot or will not support their end of it so yes it's time to end it.

AND!!! that just sounds like me trying to get the last word Evil or Very Mad

jimmer, no need to reply. How I interpret your posts is my subjective right. But I certainly know that I am not necessarily correct. I have spent an inordinate amount of time and study into how the sliding environment, the physics and our bio-mechanics interact with each other and our mental processes when we go out to play on the mountain. I have qualified expertise in parts of the equation and am just an enthusiastic lay person in others and I welcome a good smack-down . . . as long as it has substance. The more information available the better to evolve and test a theorem and I/we should never stop learning.

I have a huge and very genuine respect for the many far more experienced skiers than me and the instructors who post in BZK and I believe this part of the forum should be considered a serious place and all posts should be able to be supported with some sort of rational explanation or thought. I approach our sport from a differing and other sports qualified viewpoint than many, that alone may/has/will ruffle feathers.

I will not apologise for challenging you . . . I do apologise most sincerely for being a dick in the manner I have done so. Pax, John

You know it makes sense.

Masque, err no, if you think you've misinterpreted something someone has said... ask them! You certainly don't have the 'right' to infer any old dangly bits just because it might not be clear. In fact even if you don't think you've got it wrong, still ask to make sure. That's how you get less than perfect communication right.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I think a controlled, mostly-steered (no such thing as a "pure steered" turn; that's a pivot slip) is a difficult maneuver. I don't know whether it's more or less difficult than a pure carved turn, but it's tough. Controlling the rotation of the femurs in a consistent, parallel way is challenging for most people. The primary difference between a gliding wedge turn and a steered parallel turn is the rate of rotation of the two legs (in a wedge, they are not the same speed, in a parallel turn, they are). Given that many PSIA full-cert candidates find the wedge one of the more challenging maneuvers, I think we can say that doing a steered turn well is quite challenging.

While all turns are a mix of skills, carved turns rely primarily on tipping and pressure management while steered turns rely primarily on rotary and pressure management. As a result, those with strong rotary skills can likely do steered turns more easily than carved turns. For some of us (I include myself in this group), our tipping skills are more developed, and we find carved turns considerably easier than a well-executed steered turn.

There are also various non-carved turns that I would not describe as "steered." A counter-rotated turn, a turn created by upper-body rotation, and so on all can look like "steered" turns because they aren't primarily shaped by the use of the skis' edge and sidecut, but they aren't "steered." Steered turns are created by the rotation of the femurs in the hip sockets with the skis' edges tipped gently allowing the skis to pivot smoothly.

So, yes, as lower-level and "intermediate" skiers begin to learn to steer, doing so actually can be more challenging than using the edge like in a railroad track drill.

A snowHead

What ever one you've practiced more is easier. For me a clean carved turn is easier than a GOOD short radius non-carved turn, but only because I've been trying to perfect the carved turn for the last 30 to 40 years, and during that time I didn't give a rat's adz for any non-carved turn. There are a lot of folk with all kinds of official credentials that are amazing skiers and can make beautiful short radius non-carved turns, but can't make a GOOD CLEAN carved turn. Yes, I have high standards.

A snowHead

Having followed this thread with interest, but complete ignorance, I wondered what the advantages of either would be to a recreational skier? Are there 'normal' circumstances where one would be better than the other?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

CaravanSkier, carving is quicker and has a lovely feel but you can only make turns as tight as your ski and physical prowess allow. Which means you need a bit of space and speed control is more limited. Steered turns give you much better speed control and you can turn the ski within its length if needs be.

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Thank you meh,

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Ghost, great to see you here, my friend! Yes, I know your focus on arc'in' 'em, and know what you're capable of doing. I agree with your assessment, and trust that my carved turns would make your grade...

CaravanSkier, I tend to use pure carved turns for the feeling (I love how they feel!), but I use them for practical situations when I need to limit the amount of speed I lose while still changing direction (skiing a cat track, flat green terrain, run-outs). On the other end of the spectrum, I use mostly steered turns to aim my tips at a particular spot on the hill, to scrub speed while continuing to enjoy the terrain. One of my coaches said about skiing very steep moguls: Lose altitude throughout the entire turn. The only way to do that is with steered turns.

Hope that helps...

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Ghost, ha ha ha, I know what you mean. The search for the perfect turn. A much more interesting journey on "old school" "straight" skis.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

informative answers, thank you.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

By the way, I observe that a number of the contributors to this thread don't understand the difference between a "good steered turn" and just any old turn that isn't carved. A "good steered turn" is a challenging ski movement for many people, and Megamum was right to ask if you were truly answering her question--because you weren't! As Stephen Covey wrote, "Seek first to understand, then to be understood."

She didn't deserve the treatment she received. Examine your motivation for doing so. Perhaps it will serve you in other endeavors. Frankly, I hope that the treatment doesn't keep others from asking and insisting that we who are "professionals" understand the questions they are asking. It is our job to do so.

That said, yes, Megamum, a "good steered turn" is a challenging maneuver, for some even more challenging than a pure carved/arced turn.

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Carved my first black run this morning - snow conditions were perfect, it was empty, and I was able to get angulated, rail-like turns in for several hundred metres, only steering to slow down. Was able to play with speed and turn shape using pressure, bleeding off speed by turning up the hill. knees nice and bent - I could really feel the front of the skis hooking in and my legs soaking up the lumps and bumps.

It felt amazing! Very, very fast, though...I frequently carve on blues and even the odd red, but this was steeper. Took a bit of talking to myself before I tried it; glad I did!

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It’s probably bad form to revive an ancient thread, but as a newcomer I found all this fascinating. My two pennies worth:

1. Carving as I see is the extreme (edge Eh oh!

) case of steering by tipping to bend the skis.

2. But of course once a skier knows how to do this, they can and will use it not only to carve (the 100% case) but in combination with rotation - eg BASI short turns which will have a blend of the two. So in a sense the question is meaningless because all advanced skiers will blend (where the mix varies from 100% rotary to 100% tipped depending on the conditions steepness et cetera)

3. Almost by definition, intermediate skiers do not know how to steer by tipping. So not only can they not carve, but they can’t blend. They are entirely limited to rotary turns. In fact I would say that that is the very definition of an intermediate versus advanced skier.

4. (Of course rotary turns also involve using edges - but in a different way - the edges are used to create a braking force which allows for turning and speed control).

5. Now coming back to the OP’s question … pedantically if you don’t know how to steer by tipping then carving is not only difficult, it’s impossible.

6. Which is easier to learn? Rotary steering or steering by tipping? I don’t know. The conventional progression
teaches the former first. This could be either because it’s easier or because it is such a critical skill. I suspect it is the latter more than the former.

7. Learning to steer by tipping for a long established intermediate can be hard because it involves an entirely new movement - rolling of the ankles to tip the ski. But on the other hand it is simple to explain and teach (traverse .. garlands … linked carves …) and east to tell if somebody is doing it right (they will feel it and you can see the tracks). I taught it in half a day to a keen young fit intermediate who described the new sensation as “amazing“

8. I think there is no issue that once you know how to steer by tipping, then on a suitable moderate slope with good snow, carving is glorious, easy and feels superb.

9. However once the slope become steeper, carving becomes progressively harder and harder until there comes a point at which it is dangerous and / or you have to be a racer to be able to continue doing it. Assuming good snow, that point comes somewhere in the red run range. Beyond that, advanced skiers will blend and intermediates will just rotate.

10. Does this mean that carving is harder than rotary? As I said at the beginning, in a sense the question is meaningless because all advanced skiers are able to tip and rotate and will simply blend them as appropriate. I’ll say this though. A beautiful blended short turn (ie not pure carved) that combines rotary and tipping is a sight to behold And certainly isn’t easy to do well

11. But then again you could say exactly the same thing about fast high edge angle carved turns Eh oh!

So I guess that as with so many things in skiing, The answer to the question is “it depends what you mean“.

You know it makes sense.

Golly. A Megamum thread. There's a thing!

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@Davidgdg, an 8 year resurrection is barely deserving of the necro-bump tag. Laughing

Especially when it brings back snowheads gold - OP with a fairly simple and clear question, a few helpful answers then the thread degenerates rapidly with tenuously related drifts, random abuse, some good old-fashioned misinterpretation of text (and multiple posters weighing in, despite the original protangonists pretty much settling their differences), a flounceo (perceived or otherwise), discussion of fat vs skinny skis...and an almost necro-bump.

I thoroughly enjoyed re-reading all of that (well, nearly all, I could live without the random abuse part) and I can't help but feel that many/most of the posters (including several who I think really know what they're talking about, and are very very good skiers and instructors) did actually misunderstand what Megamum was trying to describe!

Help!!

Good steered turns vs. good carved turns - which is harder?

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