 Poster: A snowHead
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achilles, I tried . . . I couldn't even drift the thread with beer . . . they're a lost cause 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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From BASI's Facebook page;
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Hi All, for the record BASI issued a statement on the case last October which I have copied in full below:26th Oct 2012
BASI Statement
“BASI is aware of an ongoing court case with regard to “ski guides” involving a UK tour operator and the French authorities.
The practice of “ski guiding” is common place in many countries worldwide. “Ski guiding” services and ski schools co-exist in harmony in many resorts throughout the world with no conflict of interest, indeed many “ski guides” provide a good source of referral business to the resort ski schools.
BASI is aware of different schools of thought: from that of the local ski school who believe that they are losing business to ski guides, to that of the tour operators who wish to offer an inclusive in-house product. Whatever the thinking, BASI promotes safety on the mountains, as this is an important aspect to clients returning to snowsports. Therefore standards for the guarantee of client safety need to be in place for any teaching or guiding service promoted to the snowsports public.
The French have approached this aspect of safety by making the snowsports industry regulated. Up until 2009, French law only permitted qualified ski instructors to be teaching clients for remuneration. This law was subsequently changed to include “accompanying clients”, so not just teaching but by implication escorting clients. This means that everyone involved in taking responsibility for client safety including that of leading their clients round the hill on marked prepared slopes is required to demonstrate by law a minimum standard.
Currently the British tour operator concept of "ski guiding" is currently illegal in France. The outcome of this case is important for the concept of “ski guides”. British Tour operators will need to find a strategy to persuade the French authorities that they are of a like mind in regard to client safety and that “ski guiding” services do not adversely affect the earning potential of the local instructors but to the contrary promote the uptake of lessons with qualified instructors, no matter what their nationality.
The outcome of the case will be watched carefully as there are implications for both small and large tour operators offering this service for their clients. ”
Issued by BASI
British Association of Snowsport Instructors
Morlich House
17 The Square
Grantown on Spey
PH26 3HG |
Should be good for another 20 pages 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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stewart woodward, interesting document.
| BASI wrote: |
| British Tour operators will need to find a strategy to persuade the French authorities that they are of a like mind in regard to client safety and that “ski guiding” services do not adversely affect the earning potential of the local instructors but to the contrary promote the uptake of lessons with qualified instructors ... |
That's obviously the key sentence, but I'd have thought that the UK operators have done exactly that and 'persuaded their backsides off'.
I used to investigate many ski accidents as an expert witness, visiting mountain accident sites and examining witness statements etc. Out of the 60-70 cases I dealt with, I can only recall one involving a tour operator host, who took a group too fast down a red run. It's therefore interesting to see some comment about hosts actively skiing ahead of their clients to avoid a 'snake formation' on the run. This could obviously encourage excessive speeds, and I'd encourage any skier to ski at the speed they can control - irrespective of who is leading them and their speed.
On the basis of the statistic above, I've never seen hosting/'guiding'/'leading' by tour op hosts as being hazardous (when restricted to the piste). BASI are taking a slightly 'elitist professional' stance here. We're talking about informal ski leading, as noted so many times. With a bit of good training any competent client-focused individual should be able to do it.
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I have seen at least 2 different senior BASI trainers suggest a training course for TO staff run by BASI to facilitate resort guiding.
I laughed out loud as 1 – Unless the course is qualifying the guys as ISTD it falls foul of French law, and 2 – All the respondents thought It was a great idea to stick it to the money grabbing ESF, and not one realised the irony of their posts.
I think BASI are right it is nothing to do with them in reality and the line
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The outcome of this case is important for the concept of “ski guides”.
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.I think this is the crux of the case what is intended by the word guide, my interpretation of it would be UGIAM guides in High mountain areas and glacial terrain, if this is the approach he higher French courts take then there is no longer an issue.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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All the respondents thought It was a great idea to stick it to the money grabbing ESF, and not one realised the irony of their posts.
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 Especially as most British ski teachers in the Alps charge a great deal more than the ESF.
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Fattes13, that's silly though as there are plenty of awards and qualifications that allow people to guide both skiing and climbing albeit recognised at national rather than international levels.
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Out of the 60-70 cases I dealt with, I can only recall one involving a tour operator host, who took a group too fast down a red run.
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So "ski hosting" is not risk free and French law is correct in restricting this activity to qualified guides.
I am afraid I still fail to see why you must be qualified to guide tourists around London yet people object to the same requirement for guides in ski resorts. (OK I acknowledge that London is a lot more dangerous than ski resorts)
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Because it is an interference in adults making private arrangements that are damn all to do with anyone else.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| achilles wrote: |
| 33 pages. You lot are in a lather. Why? |
Someone used the "F" word ! Apparently the police force (s) there are led by Pol Pot. Jingoistic BS.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The Ski Club of Great Britain site says that the ruling does not affect their ski leading service because their ski leaders are volunteers. From a legal point of view, how does this work, though? If what I've read on here and elsewhere is correct, according to the French law in question, anyone leading a group is de facto responsible for the safety of that group and thus requires the qualification, whether or not they are paid for doing the leading.
I really, really hope this doesn't affect ski leading by the SCGB. France is already towards the bottom of my list of favoured ski destinations, because I generally feel I'm being ripped off there, but I did go to Flaine a while back attracted by the possibility of skiing with a SCGB ski leader there (which was a lot of fun). I would still well clear of France in the future if this were no longer possible (sadly, it would also remove the last major reason why I remain a member of the SCGB, even though it's not their fault).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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J2R, The ruling and the law stipulate PAID guiding/teaching
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Sure, I get that - it's why the SCGB says the ruling doesn't apply to them. It's just a puzzling distinction for me, though - if someone is held responsible for the safety of a group, it shouldn't make any difference whether they're paid or not, if safety is actually the issue. I was concerned that the safety issue which is purportedly behind this ruling might be extended to unpaid volunteers. If not, it's good news, but does kind of show up the ruling for what it really is about, though, doesn't it?
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You know it makes sense.
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J2R, there is a difference between being held responsible if you are negligent (which could happen to anyone really) and breaking a law which says you cannot lead a group for payment unless you have a qualification
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Haven't read all of this thread but there was some chatter about getting BASI to develop a course but there is an existing qualification run by the National Governing Body called the ASL which is specifically for leading groups http://www.snowsportscotland.org/become-a-leader
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Poster: A snowHead
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| pam w wrote: |
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All the respondents thought It was a great idea to stick it to the money grabbing ESF, and not one realised the irony of their posts.
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Especially as most British ski teachers in the Alps charge a great deal more than the ESF. |
I did quite alot of lessons with a British Ski School last year and was surprised at the cost. As someone who has done a lot of training in sailing I was amazed at the price, particularly as they did not provide a £200K yacht. Interested to see what sort of profits BASS and New Generation etc make as I am sure they do not over over remunerate their instructors (admittedly sailing instructors are paid a pittance).
Have done ESF group lessons and admit they were no better/worse that the British ones although preferred the gallic charm to dour Scots manner (PS am married to a Scot who is not dour). Had some great small (3 person) group lessons too though by an Italian employed by the British company.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Further to my post this morning detailing BASI's position here is ESF Meribels reply to a poster who says they are a 'disgrace';
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Our company is not a disgrace. You have to understand that there are laws in France, like in the UK, that must be respected. In this case the laws have not been respected therefore we had to do something. We understand that ski hosting is a part of the English culture, which is why we have tolerated one or two days ski hosting by our partner tour operators. In this case it was 4 and a half days ski hosting per week which was not acceptable.
Also, the English staff were not paid according to the French Law. As they were working in France they have to understand they have to work by the French Law. If a French company was to set up in England they would have to follow the English Laws and if they did not it is certain that they would be prosecuted and everyone would understand the situation. To conclude, this is why I feel you are not looking at the siutation objectively. |
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The majority of skiers probably go nowhere near this site.
If the people who rent our appartment are representative then I get nothing but positive feedback about ESF at Val Thorens.
My youngest daughter had lessons for the first time in years last week and had the time of her life in a great mixed Dutch/French group. The ESF instructor was very good and was great fun for a lively group of teenagers. She has stayed in 'facebook' contact with some of them.
There is a small group of completely anti French sentiment people on here and also a group who demonise ESF.
I like the french, perhaps because I can (sort of) talk to them in their own language.
I like the service that ESF have provided my family over the years and also my customers.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I fully agree that some expensive ski lessons might be better value than some cheap ones. I was just amused at people referring on a BASI thread about the "money grabbing ESF". That's a bit like Waitrose accusing Lidl of being "money-grabbing".
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Funny how those with a vested interest in French skiing are the most vocal in defence or not funny at all when you think about it.
I will agree that a countries laws are to be followed and if you don't like it go else where.
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| slikedges wrote: |
Summary:
Tour ops have staff showing customers routes round some easy pistes whilst chatting in a relaxed manner.
ESF complain that French law "states" that you need to be "qualified" if employed to take people round some easy pistes whilst chatting in a relaxed manner.
Ministry of Justice takes it up.
There is no such relevant qualification (10 minutes with a piste map and highlighter and list of what you're not allowed to do).
Only related qualification is FEMPS Euro Pro cartel fully qualified Moniteur National who has trained for years and done ski racing.
Will have to make it that then. |
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Am currently in Tignes and this is biting a bit for the TOs apparently. The TO I am with is doing everything they can to continue hosting, from going "covert" to now planning routes with guests but not actually accompanying them. Petitions being signed etc but I guess you do have to obey local laws. Are they protectionist laws? I don't know enough to judge, however it was explained to me by an (ex-) ski host that to get the qualification (i.e. instructor) isn't just about doing a course, you also have to ski as fast as the top 20% of the World Cup competitors (or some other equally improbable thing). He may have been tweaking this guest's leg of course, but I think the principle of differentiating between instructor (ski technique) and guide (geographical knowledge) isn't unreasonable.
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which is just as silly as saying you hate the French - some of them are nice, some of them are gits. Same as everywhere.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Funny how those with a vested interest in French skiing are the most vocal in defence or not funny at all when you think about it.
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Pretty self evident that the people who ski mostly in Austria do so because they like it, and ditto with France. Hardly worth commenting on that, really.
However, that is not to say that we should be uncritical. I have said several times that I think the French response to competition is somewhat pathetic and the ban on ski hosting unfortunate. I have also asked for any evidence that any of the other skiing nations have been more open to outside competition from foreign owned businesses - the answer so far has been a big fat zero. So, my assertion that the French are the best of a bad lot stands.
I will add a further assertion that the "French mafia" SHs are far more likely to be critical of aspects of French skiing than the Austrian mafia are of Austrian skiing.
I have no "vested interest" in French skiing beyond spending a lot of time there. As for ski hosting by TOs there are, thankfully, no British TOs and few British skiers in my ski area and the longer it stays that way the better. 
At least skiers in the big French resorts have a wide choice of ski schools with lots of different styles and prices.
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| pam w wrote: |
| I will add a further assertion that the "French mafia" SHs are far more likely to be critical of aspects of French skiing than the Austrian mafia are of Austrian skiing. |
[gross generalisation alert] That's because the "French Mafia" haven't been to Austria but the "Austrian Mafia" have sampled France [/gross generalisation alert]
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Bode Swiller, generalisation apart, you seem to have missed the point. Why is the ability or willingness of people to think critically about Austria affected by their experience, or lack of it, of skiing elsewhere? 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I have to say, I really don't like the off piste bit: Things have changed I know, but I still have real reservations about the competence of someone with 2 weeks training (with only a couple of days off piste, to take people safely off piste. (Or 3 OR 4 or more!) In my view it needs meaningful training and an exam plus logged experience.
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I agree and disagree, but must also say that the BASI Level 3 and 4 off-piste safety training isn't exactly extensive.
Level 3 Mountain Safety Course 6 days
Level 4 EMS Training course 4 days
Level 4 EMS Assessment Course 3 days
Logged days touring 6 days
Total 19 days
I realise that many Level 4s will have gained personal experience, but so will ski club reps (who are graded and lead in resorts that match there experience ie. lower level of competence Andorra, high level of experience Chamonix).
Generally Ski club reps employ a guide on there more robust off-piste days typically 1 or 2 days a week.
I presume we are talking safety in the hills here rather than pure ski technique (of which yours and other level 4s is enviable), so if in future they followed and carried out the above training would you agree they would be competent.
I'm trying to throw the cat among the pigeons here as there seems to be a lot of elitism and protecting ones own market and rubbishing of others ability.
The British Mountain Guides course is far more extensive and comprehensive (visit bmg.org.uk), but you never here the rubbishing of others ability, or 'only guides should be allowed to guide off-piste'. May be a culture thing?
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[quote="mountainmaster"]
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BASI Level 3 and 4 off-piste safety training isn't exactly extensive.
Level 3 Mountain Safety Course 6 days
Level 4 EMS Training course 4 days
Level 4 EMS Assessment Course 3 days
Logged days touring 6 days
Total 19 days
The British Mountain Guides course is far more extensive and comprehensive (visit bmg.org.uk) |
So following the BMG training flowchart on their website and selecting days containing some avvy type material we get:
5 days avvy training & assessment
2 days including avvy stuff (amongst other things) on Winter induction
2 days including avvy stuff (amongst other things) on Winter assessment
5 days ski touring training
6 days ski mountaineering assessment
Total 20 days...
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You know it makes sense.
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| Dwarf Vader wrote: |
Funny how those with a vested interest in French skiing are the most vocal in defence or not funny at all when you think about it.
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No, that's not true. There are a couple of British chalet operators in France - with a great vested interest in French skiing - who've commented on this subject on snowHeads and they are definitely not defending this ruling because it will have an adverse effect on their business. Then you have people like me and Pam, who own places in France where there are no TOs and, therefore, no hosting... and Pam, unlike me, doesn't even run a business in France so definitely has no "vested interest."
I have also stated that I hope some compromise can be found because I can't see what harm ski hosting is doing (not that I've ever used a ski hosting service in any country but it sounds like those who do use it really like it).
I dislike the gross generalisations about nationalities as much on this thread as I do on any other thread that makes gross generalisations about nationalities, be they Russian, Chinese, French, German, Romanian... and so on.
I genuinely wish disgruntled Brits would turn their back on France and go and ski in Austria (or Italy, Switzerland, Bulgaria, Canada... anywhere but France). I have little time or sympathy for people who voluntarily spend more than one holiday in Britain and grumble about it or who now have turned their back on Britain and still bang on about the negatives rather than just getting on with their new, improved Britain-free life - I'm not going to feel any differently about people who do the same with respect to France or any other country.
ps I said earlier in this thread that the lift company in this area paid for ambassadeurs, but apparently it's the local village who pay for them, not the lift company.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| mountainmaster wrote: |
| The British Mountain Guides course is far more extensive and comprehensive (visit bmg.org.uk), but you never here the rubbishing of others ability, or 'only guides should be allowed to guide off-piste'. May be a culture thing? |
I can think of one guide who will talk quite extensively on this topic given half a chance!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Currently the British tour operator concept of "ski guiding" is currently illegal in France. The outcome of this case is important for the concept of “ski guides”.
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If the French want to come up here and guide their clients at any of the English ski centres , we don't have any restrictions. They just need to buy a lift pass like everyone else.
Can we not reciprocate on that basis ? free movement of EU nationals etc 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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There is just the French apply a different minumum standard
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| Fattes13 wrote: |
There is just the French apply a different minumum standard |
Which, as I see it, is actually the crux of the matter re the hosts. If France applies ISTD as the minimum standard, then it's a question of proportionality. ISTD is something of a sledgehammer to crack a nut in respect of "there's a really good restaurant here, but the piste map is a bit confusing so I'll show you the way, don't worry it's blues all the way". And why would any ISTD want that sort of role when it's not what they spent thousands and years to train for?
Now, if ESF develops a "hosting" qualification, then that would surely bring ASL into play? But who is it in France that defines what that "minimum standard" is?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| PJSki wrote: |
| Billy Whizz wrote: |
| PJSki wrote: |
| codger wrote: |
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PJSki wrote:
Boredsurfing wrote:
So SCGB leaders paid or unpaid?
I understand an ex-rep (sacked for being a danger to others) is out in the Alps doing 'favours' for skiers in return for a free lunch and a bit of cash. Legal?
Rarely do I agree with you but on this one you are spot on. Nope, when it's for cash that is totally illegal and dangerous.
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I have skied with the ex-rep on a number of occasions, and confirm cash has never changed hands. You are under no obligation to buy lunch. It is up to the individual if they wish to buy lunch for anyone else. |
What kind of wood do you want your coffin made out of? |
I'm with codger on this one. I ski with the person, my mate, a lot. Don't know anyone with a more pro active attitude to mountain safety. Cash doesn't come into it. Isn't a drinkie or a bite to eat just good old fashioned courtesy for a day well spent? |
You carry on then, son, but just remember he was deemed to be unsafe and given the boot. Some would even go further and say that he's been proven to be unsafe. Maybe he's improved, I don't know and I don't care. But you are correct in that is long as you only cover his expenses he is within the law. |
Bit too old to be your son I think, unless you're a really old chap?
It's really important to choose your backcountry ski buddies carefully and not rely on hearsay.
I'm really picky!
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I actually went a few times to ClubMed knowing that there are always ESF groups that are exactly "guided tours" with lift line privileges on top (usually french speaking groups, made up from parents with kids in the MiniClub). it was always very clear that the instructor was there to show us around and be entertaining (last time, three years ago, this included passing around a generous flask with his home made genepi, maybe to balance the home made plum brandy from the guests).
In earlier days, ClubMed's own GO's (hosts) used to entertain guests and "guide" them on the slopes, until the ESF stopped them, using the courts. Had I known that british TO's offer "social skiing" than maybe I would have looked into booking with them.
So it would seem to me that the ESF would very much like to reach a similar agreement with the british TO's. I also doubt that ClubMed pays anything close to sticker price for these weeks, after all.
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I still find it ludicrous that the ESF who, despite what they have said, have put a lot of energy into this case yet are quite happy to plonk pre-school kids on a chair with strangers to look after them (and I'm refering only to their physical safety on the lift rather than anything more unsavoury). If they are going to show some responsibility in terms of people's safety then it there should be at least 1 instructor per 3 kids on a chair; especially given what happened recently in Claviere. But then that would hurt their business model and we wouldn't want that, would we.
I'd like to hope that there would never be a repeat incident in a French resort but if there ever is then the ESF will have no defence.
Make no mistake. This is nothing to do with safety and everything to do with money and vested interests.
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But who is it in France that defines what that "minimum standard" is?
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Probably the ESF or the Minister of Sport I am guessing though.
As previously mentioned I think the ISTD model the French employ is excessive in terms of teaching never mind guiding.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hypothetical - if a TO ski host is part of a group, but not leading it, who is getting arrested, the host, the person at the front (an unpaid guest sharing with other unpaid guests in the chalet who happens to be the fastest and probably most experienced skiier in the group) or are they planning to listen to every conversation where the host tells the nominated "guide" which way to go when they get to the top of the lift they are sharing?
Host is at the back of the group, playing sweeper because they have (on paper) the most pressing duty of care in the event of an incident, compared to the random guest who is at the front and is merely following instructions and stopping at every junction on the way down the mountain to make sure everyone goes the right way.
That's how I'd do it, and if the TO merely happened to offer a significant discount to one person booking on to a holiday, that would be their decision to make.
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| Mistress Panda wrote: |
Host is at the back of the group, playing sweeper because they have (on paper) the most pressing duty of care in the event of an incident, compared to the random guest who is at the front and is merely following instructions and stopping at every junction on the way down the mountain to make sure everyone goes the right way.
That's how I'd do it, and if the TO merely happened to offer a significant discount to one person booking on to a holiday, that would be their decision to make. |
It's already been done like that by (dare I say it) most TOs. Certainly was by the one I worked with in Les Arcs season of 2009, host didn't wear a company jacket either. It has always seemed to me that Mark Warner were in the minority having fully logo'd hosts.
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FAQ
