Interesting News regarding the Eurotest

A snowHead

So can anyone explain to me how the ISIA technical speed test relates to other speed tests like Eurotest? And what would the implications be if ISIA did adopt this? As an instructor arriving at it well after my 20s who wants to progress up the system, this is all quite relevant to me, but I must confess to being a bit confused by the different apparently parallel systems.

A snowHead

stewart woodward,

That would be a "BASI do not wish to change the conditions which they have dictated that members must comply with". Please note no mention of the law or EU Directives in my statement. In short the BASI Board (under the thumb of the those who currently 'work' in France) do not wish to restructure the rules which currently permit entry by UK ski instructors onto the gravy train. I have been present when highly placed paid employees have made statements to what is best described as, a very select body of members, that, "The BASI position is to ensure that 'you guys' can continue to earn a good living in France".

Perhaps Simon Butler will deliver the coup de gras to a corrupt leadership (both elected and appointed). The Board must have been soiling their pants at the London General Meeting. It was good to hear him quote most of the things that I have been advocating for 5 years and writing on this post for a couple of years.

AND - the Test Technique is a traditional entry requirement to become an apprentice ski instructor within an ESF ski school. In itself it does not form part of the ski instructor syllabus. That BASI did not challenge the need for those who are part of a non French instruction system to successfully complete a TT is nothing short of scandalous - but then again it is another barrier into France is it not? So why should the power people seek to dismiss it?

An improvement in the lot of the majority of members will only occur when there is a change in the people who are 'running' BASI - the encumbents are currently not acting the best interests of the members

AJD You are of course correct about a BASI race standard (not ET lite, it would be ET appropriate) which should be organised, run and controlled by BASI. As long as it is not substantially different it would be acceptable under EU Law.

And another thing - Age...... The UK Law is quite specific. The best way to tackle this is for a BASI member to challenge BASI. If BASI had any decency they would 'lose' the case. The UK government would then take France to the European Court of Justice - and win. That way one member does not have to take on the French state and BASI would not have to take on the French state. simples....

Which is exactly what should have happened with Simin Butlers case, BASI should have backed him and then the UK Government would have gone at the French. But I guess we all know why BASI didn't back him, if you don't know watch the broadcast of the General Meeting from about 30 minutes onwards. Sound quality is very poor so wear headphones.

If you want to change things then members need to change the structure at the top, including eroding the power base of the Trainers, they are after just members like the rest of us.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

^ what a load of hot air....
BASI are fundamentally very small fish in a big pond of alpine nations.
what ever you think of the "French system" it is wrong to believe that BASI are in a position to change it.

IMHO : rocking the boat, pissing off the Frenchies, and racking up big legal bills is not in BASI members interests.

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Haggis_Trap, why do you not consider it not in members interests to challenge their working rights and thus our earning potential?
I would consider that in members interest.

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@Haggis_Trap BASI won't foot rack up any bills as they won't be the ones challenging the French. Why would they? They've had long enough to do it but chose not to (not because it would fail). The challenge will be made my individuals re. Simon Butler (again). BASI are on the fence on this matter and will remain there.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

As BindingCheck points out - listen to the information in the AGM broadcast from 2nd Nov. Simon Butler, if he wins, will achieve a lot for the rank and file in BASI. He is of course doing this to protect his own business and reputation first and foremost. The BASI contribution will be a big fat ZERO for Simon's case and the membership if he succeeds.

After all it is free

Haggis_Trap,

Not hot air. Hot facts.... based on evidence not opinion.

It's not about pi**ng of the Frenchies, It is about getting them to obey the LAW. That is EU LAW not some silly little local protectionist law that they come up with to suit what they beleive to be their best interests.

Read the history. Get the facts. Don't listen to your 'betters' telling you how you must capitulate because it is their country, ie. France.

For those of you who have read my other posts please accept my apologies for this one. I am usually more measured but I find myself to be quite incensed when I read ill informed opinion being passed.

^ Dunk, bindingcheck.

Simmer down : Britain hasn't had an empire or ruled Europe for a very long time Wink

The fundamental fact is that BASI are very small fish in a big pond : they are simply not going to change the French system.
Rocking the boat with expensive EU court cases would very quickly ruin the reputation, and financial health, of BASI.
I am listening to the facts. And I choose to disagree with your viewpoint and agenda.

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Haggis_Trap, I think you are lumping several things into the "French system". There is EU law, French law and French practice. Not all French practice is enshrined in French law and EU law trumps everything. I can't see why BASI shouldn't go into bat on behalf of a very significant slice of its membership if the latter is being flouted (for which Simon Butler produced much prima facie evidence on Saturday).

It's got nothing to do with the British Empire, it's the EU that counts (which p...s off British people just as much, but that's what we've all signed up to). Talk about hot air!

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^ Maybe the French are in the wrong : however it is not in the interest of BASI to spend time / money / energy trying to dictate changes to their law via EU courts.
Doing so could only end badly in the long run and damage relationships even further.

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laundryman, a whole-hearted +1. And before you get any wrong ideas, Haggis_Trap, half my family is French and you could not find a more enthusiastic Francophile than me - I love them, warts and all, and feel at home there. But they are deeply wrong on this issue. Of course, whether it is tactically a good idea for BASI to fight its legitimate corner is a whole other issue, on which I'm unqualified to comment.

Haggis_Trap, It is not about changing the "French system", it is about all EU citizens being treated equally.

You know it makes sense.

^ come now : be honest. Equality is only a small factor.
Its actually about people secretly hoping the dreaded Euro Test will go away one day in the future Wink

Either way my simple argument is that BASI, as a small association with limited influence, are quite right to continue sitting on the fence : pro actively rocking the boat, and antagonising the French would only result in big legal bills and ill feeling.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Doug, really surprised that you think the small guy standing up for equal rights is not the thing to do. Puzzled

or have I totally misunderstood your simple argument?

A snowHead

^ The whole ET issue is more complex than that.

A snowHead

Being in my late 40`s and going through my ISIA I have kept a keen eye on all the talk on the eurotest. it`s not my intention to work in France but I know a lot of people who do want to work in France, and obviously the eurotest is a huge obstacle in a lot of cases preventing this happening. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the test and reasons it`s in place, if the law states it is not required (as I think Simon Butler was pointing out at the AGM) then surely the law has to take precedence.
I know this is an emotive subject for the French,English and other European instructors but we have to obey the law. If this indeed turns out to be correct I would hope that BASI supports it members in pursuing their right to work within France within the law.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

^ Some interesting historical reading below about Simon Butlers specific case.

http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=38237&start=200&sid=fe2a5c0eda079c640e371a2108f06251

A big issue seems to be that he employed BASI L2+L3 as trainee instructors at his ski school in France ? Which under French law is obviously illegal.
I have sympathy with Simon Butler and his noble cause : however from the link above it should be obvious why BASI considered the bigger picture and haven't backed his fight.

It is naive and simplistic to think BASI are in any position to change the ET : they are a small association with limited resources and influence!
Members are better served by the association engaging with other nations (for example via ISIA membership or obtaining French equivalence for L4) rather than rattling the cage (via EU court cases).

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As I understand it there are 2 separate issues here:
a) The requirement of the EuroTest to be considered fully qualified by the French (and hence BASI)
b) The eligibility for non-French schools to take on Stagiaires

Simon Butler seems to have produced evidence at the AGM (I've yet to listen to the full webinar) about a), and at the same time seems also to be challenging b).

From my perspective, I think b) is the biggest abuse of EU law. If the British ski schools could take on L2+ stagiaires having taken some sort of TT or equivalent I think that could change the market considerably. In short order, Snoworks, NewGen, BASS etc would have the capacity to be able to satisfy the demand from Tour Operators for native English speaking ski tuition.

I'd certainly give it a serious look.

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Well worth watching the recording if you are a member and have not already done so.

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stewart woodward They did back that particular issue. Did that come before or after German instructor who took it to the EU, and won.

After all it is free

Watch the AGM video, it will explain it. The current situation is not about who can employ stagieres or ET. It's about who can work in France and at what level of BASI qualification. Don't get tied up in BASI legal cost; that's a mute point, unless BASI are funding Simon's case? No, thought not.

Haggis_Trap - 'It is naive and simplistic to think BASI are in any position to change the ET' : again, BASI don't have to fight to change ET requirements. It's being done for them. Strange, don't you think? An organisation can't challenge (unwilling) the situation but a member of the organisation can.

French authorities told them what they wanted them to do and they did it. Now others are challenging the legality which appears to have been interpreted wrongly. Naievity doesn't come in to it - BASI are doing nothing about it and I for one don't expect them to rattle any cages despite it being clear that they could and would most probably win. A precedence has been set by others. It's more naive to think nothing at all can be challenged to help level 2 & 3 instructors without TT or ET do some work in France.

If the law states you need ET to be equivalent then so be it. If the law states you can work in the country without the ET then that should apply also? Why be selective in which laws can be used for the benefit of BASI members.

^ so just watched the video.... (34-54mins is where the fun starts)
good luck to Simon Butlers fight - potentially interesting for L2 & L3s *if* it is true *and* he wins the battle.
however don't forget that he has been fighting the French, and the ET / stagiere system, in various court battles for over 8 years. very interesting test case, however I wouldn't bet on the outcome despite the compelling evidence presented.

http://www.snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=50772&start=1200

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skison, And it's not just France. Recent changes in Spain has stopped L2's working where they had otherwise worked quite legally until recently.

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Just to be pedantic (but it is important ) Andorra is not Spain nor is a member of the EU

Spain, actually Catalonia.

The rules regarding Andorra have been in place for some time.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

not just Brits complaining about French requirements. this seems (my French isn't great so I may have got the wrong end of the stick) to be a blog by former world freeride champion Arno Adam (no relation) about the lack of recognition given to his achievements by the French system, on the basis that freeride isn't an Olympic sport:

http://paroledeslecteursdunouvelobs.blogs.nouvelobs.com/archive/2012/07/09/ski-free-ride-savent-ils-au-moins-par-arno-adam.html

A snowHead

Arno, What does that guy know about skiing? Far better to have scraped around the world picking up scrappy FIS points in sideshow races like Iran as at least that means you're a "proper" skier.

A snowHead

Just stumbled across this very interesting thread. I would be grateful if someone can explain something to me please: - if the relevant bodies in the UK decided that in order to be fully qualified and able to work professionally as a medical doctor in the UK you had to pass certain tests in order to keep standards high, would they not be perfectly within their rights to do so? The fact that this made it difficult for some doctors from other countries to work here would surely have no bearing on the matter. I am assuming that this example holds no water in the area of ET and the ESF etc so can someone explain why please?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

If you go back through all of the prvious pages I am sure you will find an answer. I cant give you one right now because I don't understand the question you have posed.

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My question is quite simple: - if the French want to set a high standard in order to qualify as a ski instructor to work in their country it is surely their prerogative, so why all the fuss?

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idkwia, French employment law has to comply with the relevant EU legislation. There is an active discussion on the BASI Members Group on Facebook which goes in to the matter in great detail. Might be worth you having a look.

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Jean-Marc Bosman challenged through the EU courts.

Mind you....... He ended up skint. Not one footballer who benefited helped him out.

So it could be very expensive.

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After all it is free

The irony is that France is loosing out as a result, if the numbers for French people in London starting businesses are correct.

Again I fail to see what the argument is here. If your qualification is not on a par with the French system you cannot get a job in the same way as if you want to work in a profession in the UK, if your qualification is not considered equivalent you cannot get a job. This is perfectly clear and perfectly fair.

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idkwia, It's when the narrowness of 'equivalence' effectively closes the door to all but the original . . . there is no equivalence.

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Interesting News regarding the Eurotest

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