 Poster: A snowHead
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P.S. I recall a French expression 'laissez faire'. Is it still part of the French language?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Sbutler, well done for joining the discussion and puting your side of the story. Do I understand your stance to be that you were operating illegally on purpose to provoke a court case to allow you to show the legislation about trainees was unfair and get this legislation changed?
I also understand that Facts often seem very different depending on who is presenting them. That is why we have a legal system. Both sides go to court convinced they are right. I await develpments with interest.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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yeah, thanks for chipping in simon
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Despite some of the condescending remarks from major contributors and earlier prattle on these pages, portraying SBS and Ski BB as ne’er-do-well outlaws operating in deliberate defiance of the host country’s laws and contributing to the disharmony and ‘putain les anglais’ insurgence in the area... thus risking the reputations of all British entrepreneurs in the Alps...yadda yadda [  What nonsense] I am delighted that Simon Butler has come forward to explain the situation himself.
However, I think I can speak for clients and friends that ski each year at SBS who’d endorse his claim about where they choose to go for their tuition. What justifies this support? SBS (and SkiBB) have tapped into a market (which certainly does NOT consist of xenophobic Brits who have enraged local sensibilities, but reasonable individuals and families) which takes its ski learning seriously. So, for those of us not born with skis on but who want accelerated tuition, this is where the SBS/BB product comes in. The advantage of inclusive instruction over the random classes of conventional ski schools is the consistent annual monitoring of one’s personal progress, technique improvement and gradual eradication of bad habits for those who’ve been at it a bit longer (e.g. knees glued together – Jonpim – go to Mr Butler’s clinic he will perform an excellent separation procedure on your knees).
As yet, I haven’t come across another organisation that offers this type of package. I hope they both succeed in their appeal even if entails the European court. None of us condones working outside the law but neither Simon Butler nor James Barrett-Boyce are fools: they have been running viable businesses for years in a highly-competitive marketplace and must be aware of the cost, stress and risk the impact of such action is on their livelihoods.
Good luck to them both!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Are we getting to the nub of the matter? As welcome as Simon Butler’s contribution has been, all I’m seeing is muddy water.
Mr. Butler, you were employing brits with BASI 3&2 tickets but not charging (on paper at least) for their services? Were they on an English contract or a French one? Were their duties strictly ‘teaching’?
I get a strong impression that there’s a lot more to this situation than is in this thread.
And as for customer retention . . . oh puleeez! Punters are cheap and greedy. If you’re offering “free” ski instruction, which moron is going to so ‘no thank you, I’d rather give my money to the French schools’?
I see a marketing strategy (and a very obvious one). Since we all (should) know that there’s no such thing as a free lunch, the costs to you for that instructor has been factored into your price structure.
From reading what’s been made available I’m moving to the thought that you just got ‘caught with your pants down’. But I’d welcome any background that would clarify your position both here and in French labour law.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Thank you Shutler for putting across your point of view. I particularly appreciate this coming from the person concerned, and not from unidentifiable pseudonyms, one of whom joined just yesterday to make his first contribution on this very topic.
Let's stick to the facts - as Shutler himself suggests. His initial point is that the ESF allegedly went to court because they are losing customers to SB. That is clearly an opinion of his and not a fact. It is certainly not an argument in the ESF's favour and would be thrown out of court - any court - whether in France or elsewhere. There are the best part of 20 non-British skiers in the French Alps for every Brit. The ESF isn't about to go under because a few of Simon Butler's customers don't want to ski with them.
Even if his customers don't like the ESF, well there are bona fide, fully registered, alternative ski schools throughout the Alps, including in Megève - the International Ski School and I understand from this season or next, White Sensations (a British-run operation). Is Simon Butler Skiing a ski school? Or is it a tour operator? You can't have it both ways. Register yourself as a ski school, separate out the tuition fees from the holiday costs, problem solved! And if not, why not? After all, if the competition is so easy to beat and no one wants to ski with them, where's the problem?!
The Eurotest was agreed as part of the international standards on May 11th 2000 and adopted on April 24th 2001. 31 ISIA member countries agreed on the same standards, including GB and France.
"In their syllabus, Basi 2 and Basi 3 instructors do not have to pass an exam dealing with safety in high-mountain off-piste, nor do they have to speak another language, both of which are quite important, especially in dealing with the potentially adverse conditions which may well continue to exist in parts of France." [ Dave Renouf, former BASI chairman, FT Article, http://specials.ft.com/timeoff/ftski/FT3D4JX5CHC.html ]
Hence the trainee system and status agreed by all 31 member countries of ISIA, for those in the employ of a registered ski school in the country concerned.
Shutler:
| Quote: |
| It is because I employ BASI Grade 3 and 2 level instructors that I have not been granted the Speed Test. |
So you are saying that you personally do not have equivalence because you employ lesser qualified instructors? That makes no sense to me. Either you were a BASI I when the Eurotest was introduced, and at least 40 years old, in which case you were entitled to automatic equivalence (see Easiski's post), or you weren't 40 and didn't take - or didn't pass - the speed test. According to the ISIA's statutes the only other problems result from non conformity, such as not taking the 2 day refresher course every two years, lacking the ability to teach in a second language, etc. In such cases, following implementation of the ISIA standards in May 2001 the individual member had two years to conform. If not membership and equivalence is lost.
Your website continues to describe you as a 'Grade I ISIA'. Is this correct, or not?
Shutler:
| Quote: |
| I am simply asking to be able to operate under the same legislation as the French. At this time there is no law which enables our instructors to work under the same rules as our French counterparts so we knew prior to the court hearing what the result would be! |
Another key question here is whether there is discrimination. Shutler raises this issue above, but I wonder if this isn't a smokescreen. Read what he says carefully. Is he saying that no flully-fledged and properly registered British-run ski school can employ BASI II and IIIs on the same basis as the French? That is how it appears at first glance.
It should not be forgotten that presumably for reasons which may have already have been touched on in previous posts (and I have just seen, by Masque, in his usual 'concise' style!), the two defendants in this case are not "ski schools". They are tour operators which Shutler himself agrees provides holidays inclusive of free tuition. He says the ESF is allowed to "employ" trainees, but he isn't. Curious. I note that he doesn't tell us why this apparent unfairness was not considered by the French Court. After all, this would on the surface appear to be an example of blatant discrimination under Article 21 of the European Directive, which states that any form of discrimination in sex, age, race, nationality is totally forbidden. France signed up to this in the Treaty of Amsterdam in 1997. I seriously doubt the French would be naïve enough to think they could get away with that.
The Ski Club of GB has been permitted to carry on with the 'free rep' system, as I understand it, on the basis that tuition is not involved. Are there not parallels here? What would happen if BASI IIs and IIIs became paid reps and the SCGB allowed them to give free tuition under the alleged supervision of a BASI I (without equivalence)? I doubt the French, the Austrians, Italians or anyone else would be too happy if this happened in their own countries. The standards of the system as a whole would be far too easily undermined. You might as well take one of Jonpim's aforementioned qualified (but with considerably less years of training) non English-speaking eastern European doctors and have them give free consultations as trainees in the employ of a British doctor, on the strength of the patient buying a £50 cup of tea when he enters the waiting room.
As Masque says - marketing strategy. Which is cheaper for your business - free tuition inclusive in the holiday, or separating the two and registering as a bona fide ski school? I think we can all guess the answer to that. Reading your post Shutler, you almost had me believing that you'd gone through all this as a matter of principle.... for a split second.
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Many more interesting points from Snobrain, Masque and PG. By the way, I believe Simon Butler's pen name is S Butler (which would be more legible written that way), not 'Shutler' (it's a b, not an h)
PG. Are you a foreign owner of French property? Bear in mind when making criticisms of others running businesses in France that the key complaint of the locals in Chamonix is that foreign (primarily British) ownership of property is forcing them (i.e. those who have to rent) out of their homes. So the exploitation issues of British-run businesses in France are quite broad.
Wouldn't it be better for tourism generally - globally - if we travelled and stayed in locally-owned properties, using exclusively locally-owned businesses and trades?
Masque. I know someone who recently travelled to France and apparently fixed up some plumbing and electrics, arguably at the expense of local tradesmen. Do you have a view on these freelance activities, or are we purely focussed on ski teachers here?
Incidentally, before I'm accused of hypocrisy in asking these quesions, I've worked as in instructor in an Italian ski resort for a ski club based in England, thus arguably denying work to local Italian instructors. But would the club have taken its members to that resort if it couldn't take its own instructors? Undoubtedly not.
We're all in the game to a greater or lesser extent, aren't we? Hands up those who're not.
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David Goldsmith, Well, never one to shy away from a bit of controversy (as you've probably realised by now ), I'm happy to go over the property issue again - although we've already discussed this previously, and I don't think this issue should be confused with the current discussion.
To respond, I don't believe that this is "the key complaint" of locals. It is a matter of concern, certainly, and one - as every reasonable Frenchman is fully aware - that stems from two main causes.
- there is a shortage of property in certain boom areas, and planning restrictions (currently undergoing revision) hinder things further.
- There is increasing demand not just from Brits but from other European countries and nations further east... but equally importantly, from other areas of France.
However,
- Sensible locals are perfectly aware that the boom wouldn't have happened and a large number of them wouldn't have their jobs if the tourism industry in the regions concerned hadn't developed to the extent it has. Their kids wouldn't be living there in the first place to need accommodation - they'd all have gone off elsewhere to look for employment.
- These same locals are under no obligation to sell to foreign buyers in the first place and are perfectly entitled to stick to their principles and sell at a lower price if they so wish.
- The 'own your own property' culture is not so prevalent in France. Many French people, in all walks of life, are content to rent. Prices - even in the most expensive areas - remain well below prices in certain parts of the UK. The French have more or less the same standard of living as in the UK, but are not keen on mortgaging themselves to the hilt for the dubious honour of owning their own property. They prefer to spend their money on other things.
- Property prices will never be under the same upward pressure as in the UK. The same size population in a country more than twice its size, and spread far more evenly (84% of the UK population concentrated in England alone).
When I moved to Provence I employed local labour - builders, electricians, plumbers, heating engineers.... the list is huge. They worked; they employed more labour, the local economy benefits. Swings and roundabouts, as all concerned were perfectly aware. And as for those locals who continue to own the vast majority of property in the area, and no doubt in Chamonix - well I don't hear them complaining!
One final point - this and other similar issues have been blown up out of all proportion by the media, especially the British media, and more particularly the agenda-driven element of the British media which is clearly in cahoots with the anti-Europe lobby. Of course it helps to actually be English and living in France for that to become obvious.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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David Goldsmith, a very fair point, but my work was a one-off quid-pro-quo and non fiscal and as a result of local artisans not being available or able to sort the mess. (unlike ski instructors). If I go back to do it on a more permanent basis, it will be within french employment law. And whilst the tradesmen were busy elsewhere the local shops and DIY sheds certainly got their monies worth!
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
snip
Incidentally, before I'm accused of hypocrisy in asking these quesions, I've worked as in instructor in an Italian ski resort for a ski club based in England, thus arguably denying work to local Italian instructors. But would the club have taken its members to that resort if it couldn't take its own instructors? Undoubtedly not.
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David Goldsmitha few posts back I linked to a page from Alto Adige where conditions under which a foreign instructor can teach are listed, those are presumably the same in other regions of Italy. Were you abiding those rules?
If not, then IMHO you were at fault, of course I don't know all the facts, I base my judgment entirely on your aforementioned sentence.
You simply obeyed the 11th commandement: "never be caught at".
in the years past, similar behaviours were tolerated, this is my undertsanding (my ex-bro-in-law is a German ski instructor who used to pay his skiing holydays by travelling with groups of Germans)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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David, good point, as the owner of a French property, a shareholder of a French company and the director of an English based holiday company offering skiing and other activity holidays in the Alps I think I'm reasonably well qualified to comment.
You quoted laissez faire earlier but there is another expression that's equally valid 'When in Rome - do as the Romans do', what we see as excessive red-tape the French see as being correct. Anyone who has lived or worked in France for any length of time understands this and Simon Butler said he's been in Megeve for 21 years.
He also claims to be a BASI 1, but BASI do not list him as such. Could there be an issue here of making a false or misleading statement?
In my experience the French authorities do not spend their time excessively checking on businesses but if someone has informed the authorities that some sort of non-compliance is going on, then they are duty bound to investigate. Much the same as England or anywhere else for that matter.
I get the impression that there's something else happening here and I can't help but wonder who Simon Butler has upset or what he has done to annoy the authorities to such an extent.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Matteo. I'm going back to the mid-80s here. Ancient history. At that time and before, attitudes to freelance instructors working in resorts for clubs etc. were more relaxed than they are now.
In my humble opinion I am a thoroughly law-abiding citizen. All around me I see scoundrels, hucksters and swindlers making obscene amounts of money out of the ski business, while I earn pennies from my honest scribblings.
Returning to the original subject of this thread (and it would be interesting to hear from James Barrett-Boyce too) I'm wondering if Simon Butler's difficulties with the locals and French courts are in any way connected with his generous hosting of Gordon Wood, the arrival of the Australian police in Megeve, a press conference Simon apparently organised in a local McDonald's and....
...March 2004 in Megeve seems to have been quite an eventful month! Simon, please tell us about your press conference in McDonald's and any other entertaining aspects of your life.
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David Goldsmith,
| Quote: |
| it would be interesting to hear from James Barrett-Boyce too |
Perhaps we already have, who knows. Not everyone is brave enough to wash their dirty linen in public... and some might consider doing so to be a pointless'no-brainer'...
I doubt the issues are directly related. The G. Wood affair is relatively recent, while no doubt the preparation of the court case has taken a considerable time, as usual, and the French system is somewhat ponderous at the best of times.
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You know it makes sense.
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Wow, isn't this a ramified discussion!
On a quick overview, at stake seem to be:
- appropriate qualifications for teaching skiing;
- the right of a country to impose its own such qualifications, even if inappropriate;
- labour market flexibility by reference to foreign workers (skiing and general);
- strict / creative / no adherence to local legislation;
- whether the legislation itself is any good (hence moral point about obeying bad legislation);
- differences in the cultural attitudes of the French and the British to administrative and economic issues;
- the definition of a ski-school;
- ... (I'm sure there are many more).
Is there any surprise that the argument meanders and it's hard to pin anyone down to a position? I presume that if you dig deeper you'll realise that the differences in opinion stem out of opposed economic / social / philosophical outlooks...not much chance of an agreement there. Though it would be interesting to see whose views are internally inconsistent.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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David Goldsmith, if you're talking about the '80...then it's totally another story, as you say, things were a bit more relaxed. And I was still attending
school. Ah, those were the days!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Cedric, Perhaps there are different economic philosophies which seem to be the common thread in some posters’ comments, although it’s difficult to divine from such brief glimpses of people’s points of view; they may simply be playing devil’s advocate!
Of course we shouldn’t accept media reports at face value, interpret them in a particular way, without further research. It is easy to accept posters’ comments on the same basis. Sbutler for example told us that he had been taken to court by the ESF. This is misleading as I understand that it was not the ESF that took him to court, but that it was a state prosecution, with others invited to join the prosecution as interested civil parties.
That may appear to be a minor slip, but in this context the difference in emphasis is important. As Mr. Butler himself says: “Get your facts right!”
It is a complex affair, and I hope Simon Butler will continue to post here to put across his standpoint. In the meantime I have one more question for him, particularly as his original contribution seemed to portray this whole business as a kind of anti-British witch hunt orchestrated by the ESF. Does he believe that the bona fide fully accredited British BASI I instructors who work in France support his stance? How about BASI itself?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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As a (presently lapsed) member of BASI, I think I can answer that. BASI wouldn't support his stance now - having joined the ridiculous international speed test club - but they would have supported his stance a few years ago.
I salute the French for winning this speed test argument, but I deplore the international ski instructing community for sheepishly falling into line. As I've said before, ski instructing (especially on piste) is not rocket science and it shouldn't be forever pursuing an elitist professional standpoint.
Lots of people should be teaching skiing. It needs to be cheap, accessible, fun. Lots of people should be taking lessons, so that the slopes are safer. And people should probably require a licence to buy a lift pass...but maybe that's a topic for another thread.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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That's a good point that I'd never thought of DG, and kind of contradicts something I said earlier.
As a consumer, I believe it should be your right to be able to purchase what you want (assuming it is legal). Therefore, if you are willing to have a relatively inexperienced or less qualified instructor - at a lower price - I don't see the problem of making them available.
A bit like getting your car serviced - if you want to take it to the dealer, you pay a premium because they should be better (arguably not though), whereas a lot of people don't care about the stamp and will just take it to their local grease monkey. You pays you money...
If skiing instruction were considerably cheaper, perhaps more people would take it, resulting in the slopes generally being a better educated place - fewer people disregarding (or not even knowing) the FIS regulations. Just a thought.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I think we've done that one David! (Still, would have liked to know your opinion on why a fit young, skilful, would-be instructor should not be capable of carving a fast and accurate trajectory through a few GS gates....) And as the former BASI chairman himself said in the FT article "I think there's a touch of sour grapes here".
You compared the *Eurotest demands to requiring a driving instructor to be of GP standard. Well if finishing over 10 laps adrift of Michael Schumacher in a 60 lap race, using the same car, you consider to be GP standard, then I reckon the various racing stables will be glad you're not out there looking for future talent on their behalf!
(* The Eurotest requires you to finish within 18% of the '0 FIS points' time, recalculated according to the penalty of the forerunner. Of course if the opener has 'a bad day', that margin could increase.... )
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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PG. Interesting that you included the adjective 'young' in that description. Some candidates on ski instructor courses are middle-aged. Is that acceptable?
I'm a 50-year-old BASI 3. Am I capable of teaching somebody to ski? My cousin took her first ski lesson at the age of 50. Was that old, brave, crazy?
I fear that this argument is far from over now!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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masopa, that's the crux of the issue. Why are certain professions regulated and others not? Would you accept that you should be able to buy an 'inferior' product from the medical profession, for example? Get a diagnosis from a first year med student, instead of your GP? David mentioned 'laissez-faire' - well surely that can only go so far. We're not talking about getting your car fixed on the cheap in a local lock-up - BASI I Easiski commented that at long last she was no longer being called a 'ski bum' behind her back, her skills and experience - thanks to the French/Austrians/Italians - now received due recognition. Mountains are dangerous places, the French and other main Alpine states simply believe that standards should be high.
And as for the 'cheap' tuition David suggests should be available. Well cheap tuition = low pay. Don't forget that we are talking about a seasonal profession, and one where instructors who through injury or health problems may only have a relatively short working life. How little do you think they should be paid, David?
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PG. That's quite wrong. The big hurdle for would-be ski instructors is the huge cost of obtaining a teaching qualification. In May 1975 it cost me £95 for a fortnight's BASI 3 training, lectures, exam, excellent board (including dinner) at the brilliant Glenmore Lodge outdoor training centre at the foot of Cairngorm. and coaching (in my lucky case) from the legendary Ali Ross.
What does it cost nowadays to teach people to slide, brake, snowplough, parallel, traverse, sideslip, ride a ski lift? Yes, I'd like to see more ski schools, more instructors, and perhaps a statutory requirement for people to learn.
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David Goldsmith,
| Quote: |
| Interesting that you included the adjective 'young' in that description. Some candidates on ski instructor courses are middle-aged. Is that acceptable? |
Fraid not David, you've missed the boat. Unless you think they should include a special dispensation just for you! Or perhaps you think once you hit middle age, to work as a lifesaver on the beach you should only need to be tested on your ability and speed in swimming 100 metres and not a mile!
I was referring to the vast majority of those who are considering a career in this field, mostly school-leavers or in their early twenties. Although, that said, racers are quite able to compete at the highest level until their mid-thirties. Take a look at some of the Masters races - they are no slouches either!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Oh I can't stop from plunging in.
My tennis instructor in Romania was arguably one of the best in the country. He had coached for several years a girl who later went on to become Romania's no. 2 and briefly around No. 20 worldwide (before anyone gets a wrong impression of my own standard - I was an amateur, just sparring with younger kids playing competitively).
The coach played awfully, though he was still young(ish). Part of that was due to his bad back, but he simply couldn't come close to his pupils in doing the right movements.
I'm not sure Nick Bolletieri ever was a great tennis player. My apologies if I'm wrong. He turned out quite a lot of great players from his academy, though.
I don't think that being able to DO something is necessary to teaching it...IF you know how to teach it.
I'm not arguing about the merits of this particular case. As I was saying above, there are MANY other issues there. But the general point of what should be the appropriate tests for ski instructors can be debated regardless of what they are NOW or of what the current law says.
Let's look at high-school or even university professors...how many of them come anywhere close to the true experts in their fields?
Or on a different facet of the argument, why isn't there a big-mountain freestyle test and a park/pipe test to qualify as an instructor? I think instructors should be able to drop cliffs heights within 18% of Jamie Pierre and Seth Morrisson. Many advanced skiers may be more interested in that kind of adventurous skiing than in perfect carving or in racing gates (see the tgr forums for vocal proof of that).
(To clarify, I think that racers are great professionals and perhaps those with racing abilities could be recognised as higher-class specialised instructors. It just may not be the best across-the-board test).
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DavidG: BASI wouldn't support his stance now
Why on earth not? His stance would have great benefits for Basi National and Trainee members. I suppose the Basi sees a benefit in keeping people on the training mill until they have International status?
The ESF is also run by the French state. So ESF, courts, police are all civil servants so may see some kind of common interest. However I believe the local ESF's are franchises, a bit like Mcdonalds.
I looked at the French ski diploma. I didn't fully understand the syllabus so correct me if I am wrong but the Eurotest seems to be an entry requirement rather than something you do at the end. There are not the different levels that the Basi has. You can also get a diploma to teach skiing, but as a volunteer. It would also seem that even if your company is offering 'free ski lessons' you need the full diploma, for example teachers in the UCPA and Club Med need to be duly qualified even though ski lessons are 'free'.
I can kind of see the point about trainees from the French point of view, they are saying you can come and work in France when you are qualified but you must train through your own structures in your home country.
Kinds of puts Scotland at a bit of a disadvantage though. However I don't see why Mr Butler couldn't employ British instructors who were in the French diploma system working towards the French exam. The only problem, you seem to need the Eurotest to start down that track. What are the French saying? You have to be a French national to be a trainee or signed up to the French training program or working for a French ski school. This is still very unclear.
Couldn't Mr Butler just arrange to take the Eurotest and be done with that bit of hassle?
Mr Butler's post has pointed us in another interesting direction but I think all the comments have helped improve our understanding of the situation. Mr Goldsmith has raised the question of just how good a skier you need to be to teach which other posters have debated. There is the question of insurance if you are using an instructor that is not recognised by the local authorities. There is the continuing question of whether the ESF is a big monopoly bent on dirty tricks and there is the side issue of Brits in the Alps.
I have nagging thought about all this. The season is around 4-5 months at best. From what I'm told fully qualified instructors may earn 20K during the season. They often have to pay for accomodation etc so they don't come away rich. I can hire an instructor for less than 200 quid per day, even less in the little resorts. So they are not exactly coining it in. Could this move to rely more on trainees be less about their welfare and more about increasing revenue for ski schools?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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This is totally ageist, PG. You should know better. Why shouldn't a middle-aged person take an instructor's course and, if they want, teach contemporaries to ski?
I don't know if BASI have a maximum age entry requirement, but you should show a bit more respect and inclusiveness. This sport isn't all about youth, fitness, racing ability. In fact, for many people it isn't really a sport. It's a fun way to slide around, have lunch, sit on a rock, meet a mate and see some great scenery. Anything wrong with that?
I did BASI at age 22, but I admired people in their 40s on the course at the same time.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Cedric wrote: |
| I think instructors should be able to drop cliffs heights within 18% of Jamie Pierre and Seth Morrisson. |
That is a good point. You would really want a new certificate of 'freestyle teacher' or 'newskool teacher' though I think. Also dropping cliffs to within 18% of Seth Morrison sets the bar much higher than the Eurotest as PG has explained it.
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| PG wrote: |
perhaps you think once you hit middle age, to work as a lifesaver on the beach you should only need to be tested on your ability and speed in swimming 100 metres and not a mile!
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come on PG, everyone knows that what you need in order to qualify as a lifesaver on the beach is a big pair of knockers! 
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You know it makes sense.
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Aslo, in Italy there is an age limit...I think that when I tried there was no age limit, but rumors where that the age limit would have been lowered to 25...for non racers...
Since we're talking some 12 years ago, I am not up to date to what the rules are now...I may give it another...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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David Goldsmith,
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| This is totally ageist, PG |
Not at all. It is you all along who have implied that the middle-aged are excluded, presumably because the speed test is beyond them? However there are plenty of fit and fast middle-aged skiers (ref masters races). Fitness, health and injury are key. My approach is realistic, nothing more. The older you get, the less likely you are to be up to the demands of the entrance exams in any fitness-related discipline.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Let's hijack this a bit. Should gym/aerobic instructors look fit? Should they BE fit? If so, to what standards?
(I know I don't get too psyched up if my trainer looks in worse physical shape than me...tough to say what would be my view if s/he looked plumpy but was fit).
Is there a parallel with the discussion above or am I just rambling?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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PG. In other words you're saying I shouldn't teach at all, because all I'm actually required to do is attend a BASI 3 refresher every 3 years should I want to teach. There's no speed test, just a revision of technique and curriculum. If my licence is revalidated I'm then qualified to teach in many ski schools. But you're suggesting that that is wrong.
As masopa said above, there should be room for all sorts of instructors who can communicate and demonstrate good technique.
Are you trying to crank up the elitism even more, PG?
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Mon 29-03-04 15:34; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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sherman-maeir, Cedric, Let's not get carried away! Freestyle, adventure skiing is always going to be for a small minority in comparison to those who wish to learn to carve properly at speed! But ok, fair enough, why not? To a degree, at least. A large percentage of those who takes the exams in France are former club skiers. Sure they've raced, but as I wrote earlier, by far the greater part of their ski training is off-piste, trees, free skiing, taking jumps, visits to the snowpark. And they love it! I picked up half a dozen kids from the funicular yesterday. They'd spent the morning jumping and skimming the new (and extremely long) pond above Arc 1800, and mucking around in the snowpark with the trainer. Jumping cliffs in 10 years time? Some have already started!
Ok go for it! (Not sure how much support you'll get from DG over this suggestion though!)
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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David Goldsmith,
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| Are you trying to crank up the elitism even more, PG? |
I'm a realist. It all boils down to where you draw the line. I believe in high standards in certain professions, because they protect the consumer. A selection process that ensures that I am taught by a fit and healthy instructor who can ski at speed with excellent technique and who of course has been tested on his ability to teach is the ideal. There are plenty who can reach those heights. So why lower the bar?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I've been following this thread with some interest, and I'm afraid PG hasn't yet convinced me. I think Cedric has hit the nail on the head.
You don't need to excel at something in order to teach it well. In addition to tennis, just look at golf, cricket, football, rugby - all these sports have excellent coaches who have never been at the top of their game themselves (David Leadbetter, Arsene Wenger etc.).
PG's 'lifesaver' analogy is somewhat wrong-headed - there is a big difference between the attributes needed in someone employed to 'do' (ie. the lifesaver) and someone employed to teach.
I really would not care if my instructor couldn't do the gates in half the required time, as long as s/he can communicate, explain, demonstrate etc. with enthusiasm and clarity. Someone who can ski like a champion but can only say "copy me" is no teacher.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Wasn't there some legislation introduced recently that made employment age-discrimination in the UK illegal (unless there was a genuine commercial reason why they are less capable)??
I take it the rest of the EU hasn't subscribed to this?
| PG wrote: |
| masopa, that's the crux of the issue. Why are certain professions regulated and others not? Would you accept that you should be able to buy an 'inferior' product from the medical profession, for example? Get a diagnosis from a first year med student, instead of your GP? David mentioned 'laissez-faire' - well surely that can only go so far. We're not talking about getting your car fixed on the cheap in a local lock-up - BASI I Easiski commented that at long last she was no longer being called a 'ski bum' behind her back, her skills and experience - thanks to the French/Austrians/Italians - now received due recognition. Mountains are dangerous places, the French and other main Alpine states simply believe that standards should be high. |
In answer to your first question, some people do purchase an (arguably) inferior medical product. Because waiting lists can be so long, people have resorted to travelling to other countries any paying for the operation. Cheaper than private here, but does what they want.
However, comparing ski instruction to medical treatment is a bit laughable - surely even you will admit? Yes, if we're talking couloirs, crevasses and other off-piste where risk is considerable, fair enough. But I doubt people wanting this kind of skiing would really want to pay for inferior instruction. We're talking about less capable skiers as instructors: those who maybe can't pass the speed test, or haven't made it all the way to BASI 1. These instructors would almost certainly prefer to take out beginners - something where speed is certainly not an issue, and the dangers of a nusery slope are hardly akin to triple bypass surgery, are they?
In a consumer-driven environment, wouldn't it make more sense to have varying "levels" of instruction (depending on how experienced & qualified the instructor is) at varying prices?
Beginners may well get just as much from a lower level instructor as they would from a higher level one. In fact, as someone else suggested - if they are excellent communicators and good at teaching, perhaps they would actually be better for beginners than a higher level instructor?
Of course, anyone instructing off-piste would have to be qualified to do such. He we are talking about safety, and clearly nobody in their right mind would condone unqualified guides/instructors leading a group of even less experienced skiers into a potentially dangerous environment.
My view has actually changed over the course of this discussion. I was initially suggesting that the French system is good. Yes it is in part, but I realise that consumers should be able to choose whether they actually want to pay for a high-level instructor, or a lower-level, less experienced, and ultimately cheaper, instructor.
As for how much should "cheap" instructors be paid. Well, it depends on how much they're willing to sell their services for. That's the beauty of a market economy (something that France doesn't always seem very keen on). A lot of the "lower-level" instructors would not remain lower level for their whole career - it could be a stepping stone while they gain more experience and ultimately take BASI 1 and the speed test.
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PG. I think we've finally nailed it (at your disadvantage).
Fitness of instructor does not "protect the consumer". If we're talking about protection from injury or death, then a mature experienced understanding of pistes, their suitability for different groups, an understanding of stretching and warming up (different to fitness), and an understanding of not pushing people beyond their confidence and ability, are far more important factors.
I'd agree that an instructor needs to "protect the consumer" from their own lack of fitness (and confidence, strength and lack of experience) but that's down to an instructor's sensitivity. NOT his fitness.
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David Goldsmith,
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| That's quite wrong. |
(ref. PG: cheap tuition = low pay)
Is it? Take away the minimum standards and pay in the marketplace is bound to fall. Supply and demand. A slight increase in demand for more instructors because they are cheaper, more than offset by a greatly increased supply of would-be instructors who have much less trouble in passing the exams as soon as the bar is lowered. There is a never-ending supply of labour waiting to fill every possible new position you create as soon as standards have dropped far enough. Deregulate and resorts will be full of tour operators offering free tuition and paying their instructors peanuts.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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But PG, the problem seems to be that far more emphasis is put on being a "fit and healthy instructor who can ski at speed with excellent technique" than on him being "tested on his ability to teach". The former set of qualities should come a distant second to ability to teach.
The best ESF instructor I have ever had (which is not saying a great deal, admittedly) was a fat, old bloke in Les Arcs. I don't know if he could ski quickly - he didn't have to to teach us - but he taught be more in one afternoon than I usually learn in a week, because he was able to explain what I should be feeling, and could demonstrate techniques to get my body into positions it had never previously wanted to go.
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FAQ
PG, have you been moonlighting again? I hope you're qualified 
