 Poster: A snowHead
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Richard_Sideways, You are probably right but still - more effort could be done to educate people - even if it only saves 1 life... In the 3 valleys you have TV screens up showing local advertising, it could show a few messages about correct behaviour. When I did those lessons only one instructor asked me to have a tranceiver and not a single one of them told me anything about avalanche risk or what to do if anything happens. It was very much a 'follow me' thing with a few pointers about my posture... Instructors really need to step up their game.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Chasseur, I also found that some seasonaires who rent off-piste equipment for the day suddenly think that they are invincible as they have the right kit...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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It is a little alarming, Dia_FindTransfers, that no-one even asked you if you had any knowledge of avalanche risk before taking you out. That really is poor. And exactly my experience too - and I was with an instructor I knew quite well.
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It is stupid to suggest piste skiiers wear transceivers. Resorts ensure all open pistes are safe. This incident was off-piste. On piste avalanche deaths are definitely in same league of unlikeliness as air crash on way to resort
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
You simply CANNOT regulate this - it's just not possible. How do you regulate it? You can't. Even Dia's suggestion - unless you forcibly queue hundreds of people for 30 minutes in pens and force feed them a public infomation film every day they turn up to the mountain. It'd cost millions, and probably wouldn't save a single life. It's just not practical. How would you enforce kit inspection and on-demand testing? European countries cant even standardise on how to teach people to ski, let alone standardising this kind of stuff.
We had exactly the same questions raised when a spate of people died through head injuries as to whether helmets should or shouldn't be enforced, just accept it's a matter of personal responsibility; people will have accidents in situations where they should have known better. |
Yessmate. I agree with you regarding the chances of regulation happening. The resort will opt to take the money and sell the tickets. I was simply pointing out that restricting the slopes on a big powder day would be a very simple thing to achieve. There was no evaluation of likelihood of this ever occurring.
Now we have people suggesting that no-one should be allowed up on a powder day - expert and fully-equipped or not. How sensible is that?
The issue of helmet/ no helmet is to a large extent personal choice. Transciever/ no transciever is not. As I explained above - it spoils 500 other peoples' day if they are conscripted to form a probe army looking for buried bodies that are not beeping.
In days gone by - never to return - there was respect for the mountain. Only the experienced hands went into the offpiste - and they left it for 3 days (usually in the pub) waiting for the new snow to settle. There is a callous, selfish, unpleasant manner nowadays.
I cannot say these people shouldn't be there, unprepared and ignorant, selfish and arrogant, but they are there and demand my help when they mess up with their childish behaviour. I don't spend much time complaining because one day, my number might come up and I'll be happy if anyone rescues me.
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| patricksh wrote: |
| It is stupid to suggest piste skiiers wear transceivers. Resorts ensure all open pistes are safe. This incident was off-piste. On piste avalanche deaths are definitely in same league of unlikeliness as air crash on way to resort |
Who are you calling "stupid"?
What you say about on-piste avalanche deaths is actually true, but it's beside the point.
The girl who died was supposed to be getting instruction on-piste, and there was no plan to go offpiste according to UCPA. They don't understand why she got avalanched on an itinerary piste. Maybe she got lost in the zero viz and ended up on the wrong route.
If she'd been told to wear a transciever regardless, she'd be alive today.
Invest in a transciever and wear it on a powder day. If the avalanched individuals had worn transcievers on a powder day, and switched them on at the breakfast table, Chloe would be alive today.
Any ski instructor taking a group going out in 2m of fresh powder who aren't wearing transcievers and aren't equipped to locate and dig out a buried casualty risks manslaughter charges, as can be plainly seen by what happened to the UCPA group on Toviere.
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SkiPresto, Not necessarily - transceivers can't protect against cardiac arrest or crush injuries, but certainly, given they were near a patrol hut you'd have expected CPR to have been started earlier.
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SkiPresto, I am not sure what went on in Tignes, but the unfortunate girl was caught off-piste, whether her instructor told her to, she couldn't resist, or she wasn't paying attention to piste fermee signs. That doesn't mean the 95% of skiers who make sure to stay on piste on avy risk 4 days should have transceivers. If your ski school instructor unexpectedly tries to bring you off -piste on a high risk day, the correct thing to do is not follow.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| SkiPresto, Not necessarily - transceivers can't protect against cardiac arrest or crush injuries, but certainly, given they were near a patrol hut you'd have expected CPR to have been started earlier. |
In general, you are correct. In big avalanches, the victim is located many metres down and is crushed, or loses blood pressure such that heart attack or stroke occurs.
But in this instance, the instructor was on the spot immediately. He was only brushed by the avalanche and was available to locate the casualties immediately. There were many other UCPA groups around too. What happened was - the victims were not located in time. The first one was pulled out after 15 minutes - unconscious - but he came-to straight away. After a quick visit to the doc in Le Lac, he was sent home.
The serious casualty was not found for 40 minutes, and it seems it took a mass mobilisation of over 300 people marshalled in ranks to locate her.
After that, they administerd CPR for over an hour before moving her. Helicopters couldn't fly and she had to be sledged down to Tignes and ambulanced by road to Bourg St Maurice, from where she was heli-evaced to Grenoble.
If she'd been wearing a proper transciever, she'd have been pulled out in under 4 minutes, and would very likely be alive today.
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It is ridiculous to suggest that people skiing onpiste in a pow day should take full avi kit. If the pistes aren't safe, they shouldn't be open - and IME on a big pow day many usually get shut. The whole point of pistes is that they are safe from 'normal alpine dangers' - hence no need for kit.
If someone 'forgets' their kit and decides to go offpiste anyway, that decision is entirely on their head (unless with an instructor/guide, at least partly), and they're just gonna have to accept any consequences. No need to ruin a load of other peoples' fun for no reason.
Large scale 'education' really isn't feasible. Big resorts often get thousands of people skiing a day, where are they going to find room to show them a video/hand out cards/whatever?
Mountains are pretty obviously big and bad-ass, it's not like the possibility of danger is hidden away. People make their own decisions to go play, responsibility for consequences is on their heads.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| SkiPresto wrote: |
| fatbob wrote: |
| SkiPresto, Not necessarily - transceivers can't protect against cardiac arrest or crush injuries, but certainly, given they were near a patrol hut you'd have expected CPR to have been started earlier. |
If she'd been wearing a proper transciever, she'd have been pulled out in under 4 minutes, and would very likely be alive today. |
As tragic as it is (don't get me wrong, I have massive sympathy for her and her family), the responsibility is on her (to some degree) and the instructor. No reason for other people to pay for the consequences.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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It's a bit ironic that avalanche transceivers are seen as being expensive, but many of the skiers you see without them all have smart-phones costing £hundreds.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Sat 8-12-12 21:52; edited 1 time in total
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The instructor of the UCPA group that was avalanched is today facing manslaughter charges. If he'd checked his trainees for a transceiver signal before setting out, he would be in the clear. That is a pretty good reason for a ski leader to insist on proper equipment on a powder day wherever they plan to ski.
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You know it makes sense.
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SkiPresto, If a piste is open that means that there is not a statistically significant chance that it will slide in the Pisteurs opinion (this includes the chance of slides triggered above the piste coming on to it). As such there is no requirement on the people using said piste to protect themselves against avalanches. Therefore it is irrelevant if it is powder day or what the avalanche risk for the day is, if you stay on open pistes there is no need to carry a transceiver. If the vis is bad enough that you are struggling to tell what is piste and what is off piste then it might be time for a hot chocolate break. If you happen to own one anyway then yes, you may as will leave it turned on while you are on piste but I would not call any on piste skier who did not carry one 'bad mannered'.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| SkiPresto wrote: |
| The instructor of the UCPA group that was avalanched is today facing manslaughter charges. If he'd checked his trainees for a transceiver signal before setting out, he would be in the clear. That is a pretty good reason for a ski leader to insist on proper equipment on a powder day wherever they plan to ski. |
Not it isn't! At all! It's a pretty good reason to not lead people offpiste if you're not all equipped, but that's it.
If you are on an open piste you are ridiculously unlikely to ever need a transceiver, suggesting thousands of skiers should splash out an unnecessary £200-300 quid (or hire shops carry that much stock to rent out) is so ridiculous, you can only be trolling.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Also just think of the hassle of trying to conduct a search, with a bunch of punters whizzing by forgetting to switch their trannies from transmit.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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By same logic I suppose all piste skiers shoiuld have ABS bags too.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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SkiPresto, Also I believe that most fatal avalanches are triggered at level 2 or 3, I don't have the source to hand, which are the most common avalanche risks as opposed to on explicit powder days which make up a relatively small proportion of the season in Europe. By your logic this would suggest that on piste skiers should be carrying transceivers almost every day of the season which is clearly unnecessary and unfeasable
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| SkiPresto wrote: |
| The instructor of the UCPA group that was avalanched is today facing manslaughter charges. If he'd checked his trainees for a transceiver signal before setting out, he would be in the clear. That is a pretty good reason for a ski leader to insist on proper equipment on a powder day wherever they plan to ski. |
Not it isn't! At all! It's a pretty good reason to not lead people offpiste if you're not all equipped, but that's it.
If you are on an open piste you are ridiculously unlikely to ever need a transceiver, suggesting thousands of skiers should splash out an unnecessary £200-300 quid (or hire shops carry that much stock to rent out) is so ridiculous, you can only be trolling. |
Yes, looks like you agree with me. But please cut out the Ad-Hom attacks, it isn't polite. Anything else you want?
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Not sure we do. This avalanche was not on an open piste, it has no bearing on piste skiers at all.
What's an Ad-Hom attack and when have I done it?
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Seriously off-topic, but ad hom= ad hominem (against the man), or in other words a personal attack rather than an attack against the logical argument. Politicians love it.
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SkiPresto,
Seems you should wake up. Completely in the minority. Your comment seems to suggest a completely lack of reality when it comes to personal/corporate expenditure within winter sports. Think of the costs of kit/training then times that by the volume of people on the slopes each year. The resources, time and effort im sorry to say do not unfortunately equal the occasional loss of life involved in cross piste avi's and the need to safeguard against such. Its a shitty world but that's the reality.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I carry a transceiver almost every time I venture out; you never know what the day will bring, it might save someone else's life too.
I didn't used to, but I can afford one now, and it pi**** me off that they're so bloody expensive, and that more people can't afford them. I've designed electronic gadgets, and these things aren't rocket science, they shouldn't cost half what they do. Is there some good reason why they are so expensive?
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Personally, I think avi risk of 4 is too high for off-piste. When you think about it, risk 5 = too high for on-piste, ie most lifts are closed. I want to book off-piste course in advance of trip to Chamonix next month but I'm afraid it will be waste of money if a lot of snow before leading to high risk. And I won't be prepared to risk it transceiver or no transceiver. In some other thread someone made comment that if you don't ski off-piste on avi risk 4 days you miss best powder days. I guess all depends on your risk threshold
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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jellylegs, The reason is small market and really high build quality standards - you don't want frequency drifting off or the harness tearing off. In real terms for the purpose they are designed for how do they compare to the cost of a car airbag or a high end branded pair of googles? For the cheapskates who are happy with a product that people will die using try the SnowBe.
SkiPresto isn't very far off base here, there's no real argument - it's just degrees of interpretation. It's a nice aspiration that everyone on the mountain on a day when it was going to be dangerous might be equipped in order to be able to assist in a rescue but practically it's never going to happen any more than all slope users will follow the FIS code. The majority of casual skiers are holidaymakers who don't really think they are in a risk sport, the odd sprain or mild fracture maybe is the risk they're up against and that's still pretty unlikely per skier day.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rambotion wrote: |
| SkiPresto, Also I believe that most fatal avalanches are triggered at level 2 or 3, I don't have the source to hand, which are the most common avalanche risks as opposed to on explicit powder days which make up a relatively small proportion of the season in Europe. By your logic this would suggest that on piste skiers should be carrying transceivers almost every day of the season which is clearly unnecessary and unfeasable |
This is because most human beings have the sense not to ski off-piste at level 4. I believe the most deaths is at level 3.
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| evski wrote: |
| Seriously off-topic, but ad hom= ad hominem (against the man), or in other words a personal attack rather than an attack against the logical argument. Politicians love it. |
Cheers. Don't think I did that?
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You know it makes sense.
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Very sad.
You have to weigh up risks though and take precautions accordingly. I'm not going to be taking shovels, transceiver, etc when I'm on piste.
I got "avalanched" at a bus stop at Courchevel many years ago and broke my neck. A massive hard packed, meter deep pile of snow landed on my head from 4 floors up. Sometimes the unexpected happens.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Very sad. And there but for the grace of the snow gods go almost all of us off-piste skiers at one time of another, if we're honest. Knowledge helps yes, but as my trainer said the only predictable thing about avalanches is that they're unpredictable. The only way to make it completely avi safe would be to ban all-mountain skiing, and for many people that's the only reason for going up there.
I'm surprised at the belief being invested in the resort avi-risk system. I would suggest the reason most incidents occur at level three, is because a large proportion of the flags and markers spend an unrealistically large amount of the time at level three, regardless of conditions. It's rare (around here anyway) to see any down at one or two, even three winters ago when there was almost nothing but grass up there! I guess this is a combination of laziness, fear of liability, and reluctance to encourage people to go exploring.
Conversely when it is unstable the response is sporadic, some stay at three, some belatedly get raised, others go straight to five and then "cry wolf" for weeks. (To be fair there are also some locations where the level is always spot-on, at least to anyone's better knowledge). It may give a vague indication for the completely ignorant, but no one should be blindly trusting their safety to such a basic and inconsistent system, imho.
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Poster: A snowHead
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shep, great insight
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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SkiPresto,
Myself and 3 other snowheads were on the scene, probably circa 5 minutes after the avalanche given the nos of people/searching going on. We helped in the search. I find your comments about being conscripted to search and wasting our hours on a "selfish person", a young woman who is now dead, to be profoundly wrong and sad. We offered our help because people were somewhere under the snow, as did the other 200 or so people there.
It does seem like the group skied down a v steep off-piste slope (leading to an official itinery route that many were taking, but via a safe entry point from a blue piste) and it was this that triggered the avalanche. The key issues, as our guide of that day noted, were that to take such a route given the level 4 avalanche warning and without transceivers seems v negligent indeed. The visibility was not great but there was no reason to be on that route on that account. Let's hope the investigations are done properly and lessons are learned and applied.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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DoubleBombardino, Well said.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| parkesy wrote: |
SkiPresto,
Seems you should wake up. Completely in the minority. Your comment seems to suggest a completely lack of reality when it comes to personal/corporate expenditure within winter sports. Think of the costs of kit/training then times that by the volume of people on the slopes each year. The resources, time and effort im sorry to say do not unfortunately equal the occasional loss of life involved in cross piste avi's and the need to safeguard against such. Its a shitty world but that's the reality. |
So you agree in principle that everyone on a big powder-day should wear avalanche transceivers and carry probe and shovel - you simply have reservations about the price?
In that apocryphal "xxx" world maybe there is a full knowledge of the price of everything and the value of nothing?
Moreover your acceptance of "occasional loss of life" where no transceiver equipment used is quite surprising.
Anyhow, you have made a perfect "straw-man" argument about the cross-piste avalanches. My point, in contrast, is the piste skiers don't always stay on piste, so they should be geared-up on the piste and off, even if there was no plan at the outset to ski on the other side of the markers.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sat 8-12-12 15:04; edited 1 time in total
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SkiPresto, if I am staying on pisted runs which are officially open then no, why should I have full avo kit? It would be lovely to have but at a cost of £300+ it ain't gonna happen. And before you go on about the value of nothing, I used to dive a lot and you have the training and safety kit appropriate for the risks involved. If I was going off piste or was even thinking of going off piste I would get the kit and the necessary training.
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Its seems that a lot of people are simply ignoring the lessons from this tragic event. There were hundreds of tracks through this area today and yes there were definitely closed signs to the Trolles side of Toviere. We had anothe 30 cm of snow last night that arrived horizontally. Stay safe folks
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Funnily enough I didn't. 
I'd only gone shopping that morning as well. Hubby says I'm the only person who could get avalanched while shopping!
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FAQ
well said & well done in helping in the search. Must have been very saddening 
