 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| primoz wrote: |
guys with 15kg too much and women with 35kg too much (even someone like Lindsey or Tina Maze are everything but slim  |
Blimey. I'm no doctor, but if there are female pro skiers hauling around 35kg of excess bodyfat, I think they are doing their body more harm than a run down the Streif would.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| miranda wrote: |
| primoz wrote: |
| guys with 15kg too much and women with 35kg too much (even someone like Lindsey or Tina Maze are everything but slim |
Blimey. I'm no doctor, but if there are female pro skiers hauling around 35kg of excess bodyfat, I think they are doing their body more harm than a run down the Streif would. |
Muscle is heavier than bodyfat Miranda...haven't seen any fat Alpine Skiers. It's just some women have natural fat deposits that don't shift, regardless of how fit they are. If they are short and 'womanly' in shape' then often the extra muscle mass makes them look huge.
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primoz, OMG, that is revolting.
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I didn't say anything about this how good or not good it looks, but it does help you win XC skiing World cup... several times
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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primoz, Wouldn't you agree you can have all that muscle...but it doesn't show, because of a higher percentage of body fat? You have to have less than 12% bodyfat for Abs to show. Doesn't mean they haven't got the muscle underneath....wouldn't you agree?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Agree but that's also the whole point I admit I might looks this from different, or even wrong perspective. Even though this is completely out of topic, let me still try to explain this.
For me, top athlete needs to train enough, that there's just no chance to have 15+% of body fat. And if you look pretty much any sport (sorry I don't consider darts or poker or something similar as sport), you will see everyone are way under such numbers. I have been racing long enough (yes I admit it was xc skiing not alpine, but that doesn't matter), that I know how much it takes to be nothing (placing around 15th place on Europa cup races is basically nothing), and being on top of World it takes even more. So with serious training, there's simply no way you would have fat, even if it's above muscles. And it really doesn't matter of sport. It can be endurance sport like xc skiing, speed skating, cycling, swimming, long distance running (5k, 10k, marathon), or it can be sport where power and speed is required like sprints and jumps in athletics, ski jumping, track cycling... But every single one of these guys and girls have zero fat.
On the other side, nowadays I play ice and inline hockey with few of World's top alpine skiers, so I actually see their endurance, power and speed. And it's, very nicely said, not impressive. I'm out of racing for some 14 years now (I guess), and I don't train by any regime, yet I do quite lot of sport for fun, and I can easily beat these guys in basically everything. That's something what really should never happen. On top of that, I have really lot of friends in alpine WC (racers, coaches and service guys), so I know how and how much these guys train. And again, very nicely said, it's not too impressive for me.
One or two other things, why I have opinion like I have. Hermann Maier won quite few races after he came back from his moto accident. Guy who is almost officially handicapped managed to win World cup? In any serious sport, there's no way he would do anything with his leg, yet here he managed to won quite a bit. Second thing... When Kalle Palander got injured, he came back and won Soelden race. Not many people know, that his first training on snow (a bit of "skating" with skis and not even skiing) was in middle of September. So after month of "training", he managed to win WC race? In xc skiing, which I know best, but there's not much difference in other sports either, if you start training only in June (some 6 month before start of season) and not on end of April already, you can forget about coming winter.
And last one... Ivica Kostelic. He's by far the least talented skier, and he wouldn't have any chance to win anything (Janica was different though) if he wouldn't work twice or 3 times more then anyone else. But problem is, that in some other sport, there's just no way anyone could train 5 or 10% more then others, since everyone are on limit what human body can even stand (and even for this you need some extra stuff, which stuff around Armstrong is proving now ). So if these guys would train a lot, there's simply no way for Ivica to train 2 times more... no matter how crazy dad he has. So this tells something too.
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You know it makes sense.
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Sorry for that 
Thing with doping is different then most of people think. It's not you lay on couch watch TV and get pill or 7 every day and then you win. In general (at least for endurance sport) doping just makes it possible to train more and harder. Which means you actually need to do even more then you would without doping. So yes, doping is (still) problem in all endurance sports, but it's not just endurance sports. EPO for example is for endurance sports, while other things are usefull for other sports. 100m runners don't need any endurance, yet it's kinda naive to claim they are clean. But this thing is happening now, what will be in year, two, 5 with genetic doping is still to be seen. And if we like it or not, things are moving to that direction.
As far as alpine skiing is concerned, I don't really think there's doping involved. As I wrote before, there's still so much reserve in amount of training, that you really don't need doping to do this, what top guys and girls are doing now. Sure you have some things what you guys in England know pretty good, but that was far from real doping use. It was accident done by someone, who doesn't even know what doping is, simply because he didn't have any need for it anyway. Guys who need (and use) doping, know damn well what medicine they can use when they get sick
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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primoz, I suspect that alpine skiing is unusual as a sport in that you have a lot of dead time when you are unable to do fitness training, we also spend a lot longer at high altitude than most sports.
I only race for fun at a very low level but can feel that I have a very low fat level by April each year, I'm not sure it would help if I was already at that level of fitness in November.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I'm happy to know that you feel doping in Alpine Racing is limited.
And yes... I realise EPO is all about recovering quicker so that you can train harder...so i get where you are coming from.
I still feel for Alain Baxter.
I get where you are coming from now re the training...for example, it seems a certain USA woman Skier has spent pretty much the whole summer surfing. I know how knackering that is. Surely if you were training to your limits everyday off season, you wouldn't have the strength and energy to Surf. Who knows...perhaps i'm wrong.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rjs why would you be unable to do fitness training? XC skiers do pretty much same amount of traveling (when it comes to WC), yet they do normal training all the way through (racing) season. On the other hand I saw too many alpine skiers who day to day come to hill early on morning, do 5 or 6 SL runs, and then go do other, skiing non related, things through the day. And I don't mean running, weight lifting or anything similar. Considering these are not some low level local racers, but top 10 WC guys, you start wondering about "hard training".
High altitude is and issue or it's not. It depends on people. Personally I never had problems, and in summer and autumn (we normally started snow trainings on glaciers in end of August) I was perfectly fine doing high speed interval training up on glaciers 3000+m high. Some people had huge problems on the other hand, and were unable to do anything except slow endurance trainings.
But I guess this is going way off topic already
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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primoz, I was thinking of time on lifts or waiting while someone else is in a course. I mentioned the altitude as I understand we use much more energy than at sea level, maybe more than we can replace each day.
I think this is on topic, the question is how fit/strong do people need to be to race. We need to be fit enough to be able to practice the movement patterns for long enough that they become automatic, plus whatever will make us faster, plus a bit of emergency reserve. The balance is going to be different for different people, do you have more practice runs at the risk of running down your energy reserves or do you stop early. I feel that I benefit from doing as much time on the hill as possible, I tend to stay out later than most other training groups that I know.
I can think of plenty of times where I have been able to recover from something through being fairly strong but have seen other people, often women, get injured.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hmm... if Anja Paerson lost 35kg, she'd be about 45kg and dangerously underweight! Describing her as "fat" is like describing a rugby player as fat isn't it? It's not like she's got multiple chins or a massive belly in that photo, just incredible bum and thighs. Anyway, you don't have to be skinny to be sporty 
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Chemmy has had a few words to say on the subject (from her FB page)
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Vonn is the Exception, NOT the rule.
Most people will expect me to be averse to Lyndsey Vonn's request to ski against the boys. They will probably expect me to be jealous, as a peer who will never have the opportunity she is seeking. Or they might think that I will deem it unfair that Lindsey will, if she continues to compete on the women's World Cup tour, "break" FIS rules by skiing on a piste the week before an event. This would give her a big advantage in the women's race because the gate setting in Lake Louise next month is the same.
However, this is far from true. I am sympathetic to Lindsey's plight. She is not just any female requesting the opportunity to compete against men in her sport - she is the best, and by far. Numerous times she has destroyed the competition in speed events by seconds (a lifetime in our sport).
She has won at Lake Louise 11 times (pundits have renamed it Lake Lindsey), and last season in the double downhill she was a mammoth 3.63 seconds in front of the second place. She has won 53 World Cups, so she is not a one-hit wonder. She is the best skier of a generation in speed, by a long way.
However, despite supporting her, I don't see how practically it can happen. Dougie Crawford, my boyfriend and Great Britain's top male downhill skier, and I have had some interesting discussions about this. He will be racing the Lake Louise downhill, so he would be affected by Lindsey starting there. He is as curious as most about how she would do and is more than a little worried about being "chicked" (beaten by a girl), which is not great for a male downhiller's ego. He has also highlighted some of the more intricate issues surrounding it in a blog aptly named "The Vonn Predicament".
Most female followers on my Team Chemmy Facebook page succumb to the feminist propaganda campaign "We Can Do It". Well, yes, Lyndsey obviously could do it. However, it is logistically tricky. For instance, where would she start in the field? As Dougie says, she is the No 1 girl, so would she start with the top men's seeds, or will one of them get pushed out of his earned top 30 starting spot to accommodate her? Or would she have to start last because she has no equivalent ranking points?
Even if this can be sorted out to the satisfaction of all involved, how would Lyndsey do? It's impossible to say, of course. Comparing times from last year is not relevant because conditions and times change in the week between the men's and women's races.
As one follower on my Facebook page said, "Lyndsey Vonn is the exception, not the rule", and if there is any girl who can compete against the men, it is her. And if the World Cup girls voted, I have no doubt that most, if not all, would choose Lindsey to represent us.
If she does compete against the men, what would be perceived as success? How would Lindsey coming outside the top 30 be perceived by ski racing fans?
On paper, it didn't turn out so well for the great Annika Sörenstam, winner of 90 professional golf tournaments, when she competed against the men in a PGA event, or Michelle Wie. However, it generated excitement, huge crowds and publicity, which is also happening in our fabulous sport with the Lyndsey Vonn question. Sörenstam and Wie gained respect for taking the risk, and Lindsey would, too.
Regardless of what happens with Lindsey, Lake Louise will be a momentous occasion. It is my first race in two years, on the same hill where a huge crash threatened to end my career in December 2010. I can't wait. |
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Any official updates on this?
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On the assumption that Vonn primarily wants to do this for publicity (and an experience of the other course), given that she isn’t proposing to resign from the women’s tour and join the men’s full time, then they could avoid all the issues as to whether it is a stunt to psych out her fellow-competitors on the women’s tour, gain an unfair advantage, or disadvantage a male racer who’ll be pushed out etc., by organising a race on a men’s downhill course in the USA against the male US team. Yes, it would be a bit of a stunt, but racing Lake Louise as a one-off would be a stunt. A domestic mixed-sex fun competition isn’t a new idea: it’s been done in XC in a post-season ‘duel’ between Marit Bjørgen and Petter Northug in the Mosjøen Bysprinten: http://www.fiscrosscountry.com/multimedia/video-archive/bysprinten-marit-rgen-duell-med-petter-northug,821.html Bjørgen lost to Northug’s killer sprint, as everyone does.
If Vonn simply wants to attempt a men’s racing track for the experience, accepting that times would not be comparable and that she’d have to forfeit a women’s race if it gave her an advantage, then I find it hard to see why she shouldn’t go as a forerunner, assuming that she meets the required standard (which if necessary she could demonstrate through the usual procedures).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I think it happened before in tennis with Williams sisters who got soundly beaten by a chain-smoking player outside of top 200 on a men's circuit. I suspect the result won't be very different in skiing.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| never summer wrote: |
| I think it happened before in tennis with Williams sisters who got soundly beaten by a chain-smoking player outside of top 200 on a men's circuit. I suspect the result won't be very different in skiing. |
Here, http://www.topendsports.com/sport/tennis/men-v-women.htm
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You know it makes sense.
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anarchicsaltire, Thank you!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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spud, I don't at least not on the European circuit and not within the World Cup races. She skied out on Saturday, so Null Punkte! She will not risk losing the overall cup or a couple of crystal globes for a PR stunt. The overall championship and the various crystal globes are worth way more in terms of real finance than a publicity stunt where the only contention is by how much she will lose.
I can understand why the US skiers and ski magazines are talking it up, they desperately need to raise the profile of their sport back home. But over here in real skiing countires it is a non-event and the general concensus is that it is PR campaign that could seriously backfire on her.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Samerberg Sue, Why would she go to the trouble of asking the FIS if it's possible...then be told by the FIS the rulings re training and competing, and that her Governing body would have to officially apply for her.
On hearing that she has obviously approached her governing body to make that approach.
Surely she wouldn't have bothered to do that, if she had no intention of doing the mens race and had a plan in place to compete in her own?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I have to say, I don't know her (seeing her on WC tour is not knowing her), so I have no idea how she thinks, but from this what I know, she was worth something like $150mio last year (I think it was number from before divorce). So even if she lost 50% (most likely much much less), she still had $70mio. With $70mio on shoulders, I have feeling it's not about the money. But people are different so it might as well be about money.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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primoz,
If she does business the same way she skis...
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spud, read the reports carefully, it's not Vonn doing the talking it is the US Ski association now. I think Vonn has gone fairly quiet - if it happens, it happens. But she has stated quite categorically that she will not sacrifice the Women's races just to give it a try. Further into that report, Atle Skaardal and Gunther Hujara both say that there is nothing in the regulations against it, but if she does it the regulations prohibit her from racing on the same piste a week later. That is 4 races thrown away for nothing.
I think the most telling piece in the article is this:
"USSA spokesman Doug Haney said, "Lindsey Vonn is a great champion and the USSA supports the goals of all of our athletes. While we are not pursuing any specific proposal at this time we have begun the conversation with the FIS."
In other words, we can keep it high in the sports pages back home (so raising skiing's profile) but we have not actually started pushing for it!
She is an amazing skier, but she stands out more because she is an excellent all-rounder; there are not that many any more, especially on the women's circuit. I wonder how she would perform against some of the all rounders of yester year if it were possible to compare (equipment, courses, etc have all changed so much). For example, she is said to be chasing anne-Marie Moser-Pröll's wins record how would a head to head with those two work out if it were possible to achieve (not because Anne-Marie is now 64 and more interested in hunting than skiing!). Maybe this season might be a good season to see her race against the men as the legends have largely gone (Maier, Cuche, amongst others). Would she stand a chance against Ligety or Miller? I doubt it to be honest.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Samerberg Sue, Yes... I realise it's not Vonn doing the talking...that's what i said in my post, and why i thought it had taken a step closer, as her Governing Body had now made the application official. Perhaps i worded it wrong? 
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I must say, as a one-off I would be very interested to see how she does, without sacrificing her place in the women's race. I can quite understand her wanting to try it, if only to counter male chauvinist assumptions that she would come last (I don't think she would come last). Give her a position based on her training runs.
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snowball, well it is official now - she isn't going to get the chance! And on most levels I have to say that I'm glad. In the long run it would not have had the effect that some people were hoping for and may have actually worked against it.
It was an interesting but largely egotistical plan. The idea seems to be putting down all her fellow female skiers as not being enough of a challenge whilst denigrating all the guys she feels as being less able than her who would have finished behind her. I'm pretty sure the whole game was to raise the profile of skiing in the USA in the hope that they would get some TV time and subsequent money. I wonder if we will get any kind of "they're scared she might win" type responses in the media to try and keep the story out there?
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Well it all ended in a damp squib tbh.
I still can't get my head fully round it.
They've offered her the chance to race as a forerunner. If she wanted to compare times with the men on the same course there is no reason why she couldn't use that position to compare. Yes it's not seen a full racing...but why not? She's also have the best of the course.
Funnily enough many of the men wanted her to give it a go and be allowed.
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spud, If she's serious about wanting to do it she should take the forerunner position. If it was all just a publicity stunt for Team Lindsey then no surprise if she reverts to the women's race. As you can tell I'm not a big fan. As an athlete fine. As an attention seeking "celebrity" ho-hum.
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spud, I'm with fatbob on this one. As a skier she is outstanding but not unbeatable (what position did she achieve at Sölden for example? ).
I used to be a big fan of hers, but I have to say that as a person, she does seem to have changed in the past 2 seasons, maybe as a result of her personal situation, I'm not sure. Her recent complicity in the "them and us" scenario many US sports fans and media whip up is one thing that particularly sticks in the throat of many here. She was welcomed and encouraged as well as benefited from extremely generous support in Europe. I think things started to take on a more "them and us" stance after the disappointments of the Vancouver Olympics and in 2011 when she lost the championships by 3 points to Riesch. This was then compounded in 2011 by her disastrous PR after her fall in training as well as her disappointing (from her perspective) results. The snubbing of Riesch's wedding was also seen by many here as a real insult. I still admire her skill and determination, that will never change, but I do not think she is a good role model for young racers any more.
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