 Poster: A snowHead
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Anyone would think that UK Snow Centres don't make money, they do. Irrespective of the costs involved, they're not just the Ski School, they're the Lift Company, the Bar, the Restaurant, the Landlord to the Ski Shop, the Conference Centre.
The Company do very well from their investment, salaries paid in six figures for some management in order to maximise their profits and minimise their costs.
Lessons are a large part of the income source and a huge part of the profit centre.
Instructors are exploited because of their love of the sport and because it's been ingrained by operators that, "that's the way it is, we couldn't possibly afford to pay you for what your qualification is actually worth to us"
Without Instructors there is no business model.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Spyderman,
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Anyone would think that UK Snow Centres don't make money, they do.
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Operationally profitable maybe, but don't forget what they cost to build...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Wayne, Like that idea. There is a true story about an old Austrian trainer as follows:
Coach with 40 instructor candidates pulls up at resort. Candidates get off coach, old Austrian trainer organises them in to two lines with their luggage. Candidates in one line told to proceed to accommodation, candidates in other told to get back on the bus. Bus departs, candidates career over!
It's a very Austrian way of doing things, but I like it 
PSG
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Spyderman, My salary is six figures ( providing you calculate it in Hungarian forint)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Spyderman, ahh but you see if racing driving and playing football were less fun, the remuneration might be greater still (actually I don't think they would be - my 'other overriding factors'), ie my use of low and of loads are both relative references and not absolute ones. Think about the opposite of danger money.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Wayne wrote,,
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The general gist of it that many BASI members are their own worst enemy when it comes to wages and conditions. They seem to have accepted that the badge that they went through all that stress to get is worth very little (financially) and the companies that “need” these employees are only too willing to encourage this idea that “you enjoy it so you can’t expect to get paid much”.
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There is no simple answer to this, but it should be born in mind that the original thread title "ski schools, exploitative"
should really be changed to "ski schools run by UK based companies, or –some- British ex-pats, exploitative when employing BASI L2’s and 3’s."
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well put wayne, thats exactly the gist of it. I will say that some of these schools are run by current/former basi trainers, and they know how hard it is more than anyone to forge a career in teaching, and that makes their exploitation of their staff even less palpable to me. Also in some resorts the local schools have cottoned on to what the british schools have been doing and now they collude to fix wages.
How do we fix this problem. I think that having some kind of union for ski instructors would help. I can see it working in places like Zermatt and Verbier. Or how about making the entry into the proffession so high that it more or less excludes anyone from attaining that level while doing a gap-yah. Like in italy where the eurotest is the first exam, or the test technique in france. It makes so much sense why those countries do what they do now (dont want to open a can of worms, I am aware that it throws up other problems). Or how about a BASI centre of excellence actually going and getting the training centre status they legally can in France and TRAINING their employees in an apprenticeship, where the trainees get FREE training, a living salary, on commital to a contract for X amount of years once training is complete. BTW is can happen ANYWHERE not just FRANCE!!!
Lets see how many of the gap-yah brigade sign up then!
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| beanie1 wrote: |
Spyderman,
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Anyone would think that UK Snow Centres don't make money, they do.
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Operationally profitable maybe, but don't forget what they cost to build... |
I was allowing for the capital repayment costs in my statement. Anyone would think that I don't run a business too, I didn't get to be the best in the World exploiting my staff.All of my guys have worked for me for years and would go anywhere, anytime because they know I look after them very, very well.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sun 6-11-11 19:29; edited 1 time in total
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Spyderman, and also, if racing driving and playing football were easy to perform at the very highest level (which they're not - they may make it look easy but I'm sure I need not tell you how very skilled every participant at the very highest level truly is), then the remuneration would be less. Think of that as a labour market saturated with well qualified and highly experienced candidates.
Bottom line is there is a trade off with every aspect of one's employment:
Fun to do = less pay
Easy to do = less pay
Easy to get into = less pay
Low risk = less pay
More job security = less pay
Cushy working conditions = less pay
Great pension = less pay
Food/drink/accomm/social/lift pass/cool uniform/glamour benefits = less pay
etc
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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slikedges, If the whole industry was a low cost business where you could participate and receive instruction at low cost I'd go along with your model, but it isn't the case, the disparity comes from what is being charged compared to what is being paid.
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Spyderman, you'd be right if there were no restrictions on trade. It would be a real/natural/true market because each instructor would price according to what the customers would bear and what rate he wished to do it at (if rates were highish), or what he could afford to do it at (if rates were low), and still remain in business. However, as you have noticed, the trade obviously isn't a true market. It is distorted by restriction of trade (in the South-East of England because it's really quite reasonable that an indoor slope should directly control who should teach on its premises, and in Europe because of other reasons  ) which results in a disconnect between what is charged to the customer and what is paid to the labour because each becomes a quite separate and unconnected market.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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skifluff, it's quite understandable why practitioners of a trade who feel exploited might want to band together to try to get fair treatment. Also understandable but not justifiable for practitioners of a trade to band together to get a great deal. What's fair and what's great is up for debate, but the government and the public should not support the latter. Remuneration should be left to market forces. Once again we're back to if it's easy to do and fun lots of people can do it and want to do it, which drives down the wage an employer needs to pay, perhaps below a living one. Forming a union to get a fairer slice of the lesson fees is reasonable but if it's more than that, say a comfortable slice, it isn't justifiable. Why should society in general subsidise some people to do something others would happily do for next to nothing when the rest of society only has their daily drudgery (good word that) to look forward to themselves? And making it artificially difficult to do (by introducing spuriously high entry standards) is obviously in the interests of career instructors but it's neither in the interests of society nor morally justifiable (not to mention not being in the interests of the majority of instructors, who are after all part-timers).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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slikedges, I dont really see it that way at all, the things I have mentioned would bring instructing inline with most other professions. The union would be there to negotiate fair condiditons, I dont see where general society would be subsidising anything? Just looking for a fair living salary and normal working conditions.
Are A-levels artificially raising the bar for people who want to become lawyers? Of course not, only those who are committed enough AND talented enough will ever make it. The less committed or talented will have to get on with another "daily drudgery". If they want to become ski instructors then they can, they will have to be committed and talented though. Dont see what part of that is morally justifiable. Again I dont see the bar set to "spurrious". France and Italy are nations with an overwhelming experience in this industry and if they see the eurotest/test technique as the entry level, who are we to argue
The apprenticeship idea is similar to many vocational apprenticeships, dont see a problem with that either.
This will affect part-timers, especially of the gapyah kind. That is the point. But if they dont really have any intention on using the quals then I dont think it matters.
Just a side note, society has been subsiding people who do "less drugier" jobs for a long time. School is free, and so was Uni for a very long time. All those medicine, vetinary, law etc students who went on to have top jobs had their educations subsidised by binman/factory workers etc. Its hard to determine what will happen when Uni fees go up next year, but im betting it will preclude any poorer but similarly talented students from persuing a career they want and a career where they could make a difference. I think that is what is morally unjustifiable. This is what is happening in ski instructing today.
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skifluff, Entry level to the union ISTD as professional instructors? Like in France!
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You know it makes sense.
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Not quite, how about entry level to the union of professional instructors upon sucessful completion of the test technique, like in France. Then paid apprenticeship with free training, like in France. Will the brits follow suit? No coz the gapyahs are wont be able to doss around in their new uniforms and the brit schools wont be able to cream it of them and exploit the more comitted trainees.
vive la france!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| skifluff wrote: |
| slikedges, I dont really see it that way at all, the things I have mentioned would bring instructing inline with most other professions. The union would be there to negotiate fair condiditons, I dont see where general society would be subsidising anything? Just looking for a fair living salary and normal working conditions. |
I'm not against a fair wage but imo it should depend on whether the market will bear a fair wage. At the moment ski schools profit from the fact that many enjoy the job enough to do it mainly for the fun. Most of these aren't young gap year instructors but people who do it part-time as a light relief second job. Trying to limit how many do it for fun will benefit career instructors in fixing wages at an artificially high level but benefit neither the majority of instructors nor the customer or society (so should not be something a government should involve itself in except to prevent cartel/monopoly situations).
| skifluff wrote: |
| Are A-levels artificially raising the bar for people who want to become lawyers? Of course not, only those who are committed enough AND talented enough will ever make it. The less committed or talented will have to get on with another "daily drudgery". If they want to become ski instructors then they can, they will have to be committed and talented though. Dont see what part of that is morally justifiable. Again I dont see the bar set to "spurrious". France and Italy are nations with an overwhelming experience in this industry and if they see the eurotest/test technique as the entry level, who are we to argue |
Access to training in the higher paying and higher status professions is restricted by academic achievement. This is largely because these professions a) require smarter/more industrious people who will cope with the courses and go on to meet the challenges of performing to a high professional standard. This simply isn't the case in ski instructing. The majority of clients can be satisfactorily taught by instructors with basic qualifications and little experience...and their unqualified family and friends. Not well taught, mind. Also, academic achievement is used as a filter by universities for entry, not by the professions.
| skifluff wrote: |
| Just a side note, society has been subsiding people who do "less drugier" jobs for a long time. School is free, and so was Uni for a very long time. All those medicine, vetinary, law etc students who went on to have top jobs had their educations subsidised by binman/factory workers etc. |
Are you really comparing paying trainee ski instructors more dosh with state provision of education ? And the subsidy of training for occupations that are expensive but essential to society?
We are moving away though from the point of this thread: could ski schools make less profits and pay instructors more if they wanted to without going bust? I don't know. I suspect many could but don't because many quite decent instructors are ready, willing and able to work for less.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I'd be interested in knowing how low level instrucor jobs are paid in similar sports.
By 'similar', I mean one that is quite niche, so there is a limited market. So not football or swimming. One which despite being 'niche' manages to generate large numbers of enthusiastic followers, some of whom go on to be teachers. One where most instruction is at beginner or near beginner level, and finally one where technique coaching is important.
I can think of-
-Sailing
-Gymnastics
-Horse Riding
Anyone know what the pay rates for low level instructors in these sports are ?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Some input from someone who does a drudgy job while dreaming of the mountains.
Arts administrators, F1 drivers, Ski instructors have all been mentioned. There are parallels that can be drawn between all 3.
- People are willing to do them for low or no pay because they are fun, if they can financially support themselves in other ways.
- At the lower levels the pay is non-existent or very low because a huge number of people have the talent to do it and will do it for no pay (almost every racing driver has to fund their own career unless they reach the very top)
- To rise to the top you need a combination of money to fund your career and talent but once you reach the top (ISTD, F1 contender) you are able to make at least a living wage/decent money.
The argument has been made that this is bad for the instructors.
And there appears to be little doubt that it is bad for people who want to enter these professions but can't afford to fund the early stages of their career. The industry appears to be exploiting people lower down to the benefit of the people at the top. But there is also no compulsion to follow the career, the industries are exploiting people's desire to do something fun, hardly a crime. Its not comparable with actual exploitation where people have no choice but to work below the breadline as there is no alternative. So while it may "suck big time" if you are a wannabe ski instructor with no money it really isn't something that warrants any sort of intervention by a regulatory body.
A union doesn't seem like a viable option to solve this either since a union needs blanket coverage to succeed or non-unionised workers will undercut the unions and while a job is desirable people will be willing to work outside the union's security if it increases their chances of getting a job (e.g. there is no office workers union as it is seen as more desirable than working down a mine)
The argument has also been made that this state of affairs is bad for the industry.
This argument seems to have more merit. The glut of low talent, financially viable workers at the lower levels prevents the talented but less financially secure people from rising to the top. In turn this drives down the standards of the whole profession, thus lowering the value to the customer and therefore either reducing demand for the service or the price that can be charged. People don't want to sponsor slow F1 drivers, view dull art or get taught to ski badly (they may even start teaching their children them selves!).
The input from some top level ski industry figures in the thread seems to suggest that this isn't happening, that there are enough top level instructors to meet the requirement and that what is needed is lots of low level instructors to teach us dreamers how to slide down a blue run.
But if it was true what could be done?
One option is the F1 way. In F1 they identify talent at a young age and subsidise their development (see Lewis Hamilton, the Red Bull young driver program etc.) This leads to a few very highly paid top level drivers but a huge tail of people who pay to compete, half the F1 grid fund their own drive rather than get paid by the team.
The other option that is partly followed by the ski industry is to increase the standard required to enter the profession, this would reduce the number of people able to achieve the minimum standard and therefore make it harder for the "low talent but with money" to get a job, increasing the wage required to attract suitable candidates. Judging by the 20 pages complaining about how unfair the incredibly difficult Eurotest is it appears a lot of career instructors are not in favour of this option either.
So the conclusion of this dreamer is that if your grew up in the mountains and the ski industry was your only source of income you may have a reason to grumble at the outsiders coming in and reducing your capacity to earn, but otherwise you are just experiencing the effects of wanting to do something fun, but not that difficult, for a job.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Spud9, I can speak for Swimming, £16 hour for Instructors teaching mainly kids. Only outlay swim suit and a towel, they supply whistle, shorts and T-shirt, most of the time you don't even get wet. Cost of qualification, no more than a couple of hundred quid.
Running a swimming pool is a pretty expensive business also as is building one in the first place, cost to the users are generally low, so in overall business model terms it's comparable to indoor snow, which has a higher build cost, but also a higher rate for use of the facility.
A lot more people can swim than ski.
Sailing - I'm qualified to RYA Level 2 standard in Power, both displacement and planing and Sailing also, as well as Safety Boat and Sea Survival. All of the courses I've done, I considered the costs reasonable.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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slikedges, Fine, lets only provide free education for professions that are essential to society. So doctors can only work for the nhs and forget about their harley street chop shops etc etc.....
ski instructors are not something this country needs to produce, that much is patently obvious. In some countries, like germany, they are needed and their education IS state provided and controlled. Like I said before, if anyone wants to be a ski instructor, move abroad and do it the european way.
Flet©h, very nice summing up, 2 points i disagree with.
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Judging by the 20 pages complaining about how unfair the incredibly difficult Eurotest is it appears a lot of career instructors are not in favour of this option either.
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Cant help thinking that all the complaining is because the eurotest ISNT the first exam, ie all those people wouldnt have anything to complain about coz they wouldnt have spent 2-3year training/working towards a useless (without the eurotest) qualification. If those 2-3 year has been spent in the gates they might have got it first time!
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The input from some top level ski industry figures in the thread seems to suggest that this isn't happening, that there are enough top level instructors to meet the requirement
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this isnt true, well in this sense that there really is no requirement at all, brit tourists can use french/italian instructors etc. As germany is finding out now, they cant produce enough top level instructors to meet the requirement, same with the brits but we dont have a tourist indusrty built around the sport. Also those that come thorugh will have to be BOTH talented AND rich. Dont think your personal wealth should play any part in it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skifluff, even if doctors/lawyers/teachers/engineers/architects/dentists/nurses only worked privately, we'd still need them. No country need ski instructors, including Germany.
Re: your points about not having enough top level instructors - that's a circular argument! It's because they've purposely set high hurdles to protect their jobs! There's no actual requirement for top level instructors to teach the majority of clients.
I'm afraid personal wealth plays a part in everything. That's why people try to accumulate it. It buys you the position to make choices.
Flet©h,
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Its not comparable with actual exploitation where people have no choice but to work below the breadline as there is no alternative. So while it may "suck big time" if you are a wannabe ski instructor with no money it really isn't something that warrants any sort of intervention by a regulatory body.
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The input from some top level ski industry figures in the thread seems to suggest that this isn't happening, that there are enough top level instructors to meet the requirement and that what is needed is lots of low level instructors to teach us dreamers how to slide down a blue run.
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So the conclusion of this dreamer is that if your grew up in the mountains and the ski industry was your only source of income you may have a reason to grumble at the outsiders coming in and reducing your capacity to earn, but otherwise you are just experiencing the effects of wanting to do something fun, but not that difficult, for a job.
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QFT
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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One of the complications in the discussion are disparities between markets because of working regulations.
You could argue that 'Top Level' qualifications only hold the value they do because they give access to artificially protected markets.*
Those same protected markets distort the few 'open' markets by restricting the working rights of those Instructors who are not 'Top Level' qualified, artificially increasing the numbers seeking work.
*But even then an Instructors return on investment in training and qualification isn't great. The way most appear to make real money is to start a ski school and take a margin on the time of other instructors.
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slikedges,
I disagree, we do need all those jobs but there can be provisions made for doctors etc, who have had a free education, to have to work for the NHS for X amount of years.
countries like france/germany etc need ski instructors because they have huge tourist industries built around winter sports. Without ski instructors (and lifties/hotel staff and all the other little links) the industry would gradually fail and there would be a lot of unemployment.
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I'm afraid personal wealth plays a part in everything. That's why people try to accumulate it. It buys you the position to make choices.
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Some people make the choice to accumulate wealth at the expense of doing something they really want to do. That's fair enough, I'd rather try and get (still need to live/eat bear in mind) by doing what I love than sit in an office bored to death my entire life. If one of the choices their wealth buys them is to fund their kid on a 5 month long vomit-laden beer tour of the alps then so be it, but I think its pathetic
Still we've established that some people dont think that what I mentioned in the OP is exploitation. Fair enough, i agree it was too strong a word. But plenty of people who actually work as instructors have chipped in to say the british schools take the wee wee when it comes to pay and working conditions.
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| Spyderman wrote: |
Spud9, I can speak for Swimming, £16 hour for Instructors teaching mainly kids. Only outlay swim suit and a towel, they supply whistle, shorts and T-shirt, most of the time you don't even get wet. Cost of qualification, no more than a couple of hundred quid.
Running a swimming pool is a pretty expensive business also as is building one in the first place, cost to the users are generally low, so in overall business model terms it's comparable to indoor snow, which has a higher build cost, but also a higher rate for use of the facility.
A lot more people can swim than ski.
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I don't think swimming instruction is a fair comparison. There is a huge demand for childrens' swimming lessons, including from schools. Learning to swim is seen as close to essential. Skiing, on the other hand, is very much a minority activity. That's why I think it's better to compare ski instruction with sailing (e.g. dinghy sailing) instruction.
So, if it comes down to supply and demand there is a big demand for swimming instructors compared to ski instructors and sailing instructors.
I'm guessing (with no evidence to back me up) that qualified sailing instructors get very low wages, or perhaps do the work gratis. Anybody know? What about horse riding?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Spud9, I'd suspect like you that a lot of qualified sailing instruction is done on a voluntary "club" basis much like rugby, football, cricket etc. Horse riding probably had slightly different economics given the cost of ownership.
I'm not sure that ski instruction is very different to any other career - there are better financial rewards at the top than the bottom pro rata to effort expended/ hours worked. Most careers justify this on the basis of experience, ability to handle more demanding challenges/customers or greater ability to add value/strategic insight etc. And in most careers there is a numbers game - no matter if there are 100 people of equal talent there can only be one CEO.
So I'd suggest if you don't like being exploited get out or ensure you minimise your time being exploited by moving up the ladder as quickly as possible, or alternatively accept that it's something that has non-financially quantifiable benefits and enjoy it for that. After all if it paid well the hordes of gap yahers would probably be trampled by the stampede of middle aged career changers.
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| skifluff wrote: |
Flet©h, very nice summing up, 2 points i disagree with.
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Judging by the 20 pages complaining about how unfair the incredibly difficult Eurotest is it appears a lot of career instructors are not in favour of this option either.
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Cant help thinking that all the complaining is because the eurotest ISNT the first exam, ie all those people wouldnt have anything to complain about coz they wouldnt have spent 2-3year training/working towards a useless (without the eurotest) qualification. If those 2-3 year has been spent in the gates they might have got it first time! |
Good point - In that case the ski industry doesn't do anything to increase standards in order to preserve the standing of the industry. If dumbing down were perceived as a problem then the industry could increase the standard required to teach at all. But given that, as a punter, you would never be aware of the level of qualification your instructor has achieved it doesn't seem to be an issue the customer wants addressing.
| skifluff wrote: |
| Quote: |
The input from some top level ski industry figures in the thread seems to suggest that this isn't happening, that there are enough top level instructors to meet the requirement
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this isnt true, well in this sense that there really is no requirement at all, brit tourists can use french/italian instructors etc. As germany is finding out now, they cant produce enough top level instructors to meet the requirement, same with the brits but we dont have a tourist indusrty built around the sport. Also those that come thorugh will have to be BOTH talented AND rich. Dont think your personal wealth should play any part in it. |
I think there is a huge demand for native English speaking instructors in the Alps, one that in some resorts is not yet met. La Plagne for example doesn't have a British ski school despite being a very popular resort with the Brits. But that demand isn't for ISTDs, nobody outside the ski industry or Snowheads would even know what and ISTD is. The demand is simply for ski instructors, preferably cheap ones that don't wear red jackets.
If Germany is finding they don't have enough top level instructors maybe the German ski schools could consider spending some of their profits on identifying talent and subsidising training up to the "top level". After all if demand is there for these top instructors then there would be a return on there investment so it would be in there interest to do.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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It will be interesting to see how the new legislation in switzerland will affect aforementioned greedy ski schools. I know that they will now require (in the valais at least) at least 20% of the hours taught in any given day to be taught by a holder of a swiss patent (top swiss qual), and that you can employ only 4 non-patents per patent. I am not sure on this but I think it may also be that at least 50% of the staff must have the ISIA stamp (obviously the patents are included in this). The wages of a patent are comparable to an ISTD in france. From what I saw last season these laws will be rigourously enforced by the commune.
Gapyahs will no longer be offered jobs teaching small kids at half term for low money, coz legally the schools wont have enough patent holders to employ them. The patents wont take this work either, ISIAs will be more in demand, but it will be harder for the L2s starting out. Their really isnt more than a handful of british swiss patents. The british schools will gradually lose their identity and become swiss, and will have to adopt swiss ideals regarding wages etc. The end of the great gapyear gravy train?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Spud9 wrote: |
I'd be interested in knowing how low level instrucor jobs are paid in similar sports.
By 'similar', I mean one that is quite niche, so there is a limited market. So not football or swimming. One which despite being 'niche' manages to generate large numbers of enthusiastic followers, some of whom go on to be teachers. One where most instruction is at beginner or near beginner level, and finally one where technique coaching is important.
I can think of-
-Sailing
-Gymnastics
-Horse Riding
Anyone know what the pay rates for low level instructors in these sports are ? |
In kayaking, I've been paid £15 for 1.5 hour sessions, £60 for a days work, and '€75 + £15 + food + tent and campbed' for a week (6 days) in different places.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Mon 7-11-11 23:41; edited 1 time in total
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^ skifluff....
Do you really believe somone teaching snowplough on the nursery slope deserves to get paid 40 to 50 quid an hour !?
Lets be honest. At least 90% of ski lessons taught are from beginner up to basic parallel level.
To teach these classes is very straightforward, and you certainly don't have to be anything more than a competent skier.
IMHO ski teaching is more about enjoying the teaching aspect, not the skiing aspect.
All these debates about BASI, Euro Test, ISIA vs ISTD, wages come back to one question.....
Do you think ski instructing is a full time career option (France) or something most people do on a seasonal basis, perhaps for a few years in their 20s or when retired (USA / Canada / NZ) ?
Historically France has been just about the only place in the world you can make a career out of ski teaching. The kind of career that could potentially pay for a house, kids, cars etc. Even in CH or Austria the average wages for ski instructors are considerably lower. (strong CHF has changed things a little for now). There is a very good reason why 95+% of BASI ISTDs work in France. You cant have your cake and eat it. If it was easy to become a ski instructor in France then the wages would be closer to 10/15 quid an hour as they are elsewhere in the world.
The world doesn't owe you a living (and certainly not a career as a ski instructor).
I guess you are about to find that out though.....
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You know it makes sense.
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skifluff, What does an instructor rean in a Swiss ski school? When I was in Verbier (years ago) lots of instructors in the official ESS had no qualification at all (maybe in house qualifications)
I know in Austria the top level instructors would be lucky to make 150 euro per day. They are always shocked when I tell them what they could make in France!
PSG
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Average ski instructor in Verbier gets paid about 25chf an hour.
That is circa £16 an hour. Sounds like a lot.
Until you factor in the cost of living & rent in CH. Plus you will only get 40 hours a week during peak periods.
Personally I don't think ski schools are exploitative.
In reality the vast majority of ski teaching work is snowplough, kids and nervous intermediates.
For such lessons the market simply wont support higher wages.
The simple fact is that ski teaching, like most sports instruction, is generally something you do probably in your 20s for the lifestyle.
Plus the winter season only last for 4 or maybe 5 months a year.
A lucky few eventually obviously do make a professional living out of snowsports - but if they have worked hard for an ISTD or Patent then they have earned that privilege.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Mon 7-11-11 19:15; edited 2 times in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
Do you think ski instructing is a full time career option (France) or something most people do on a seasonal basis, perhaps for a few years in their 20s or when retired (USA / Canada / NZ) ?
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Good point, made many a time but falls on deaf ears.
Also the french run syndicates and charge less than the brit schools! So no one getting exploited there, i worked 3 seasons as a stagier and paid all my costs, car, quails, holidays etc
This way clearing works the best but their are only so many schools in so many mountains in 1 country, hence Eurotests and Test techniques to make sure the guys getting those jobs are capable to perform at all levels.
It's certainly not only for rich kids as all the guys training with us prove.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Haggis_Trap, your comments directed at me are bizarre to say the least, have you actually read anything I have written?
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Do you really believe somone teaching snowplough on the nursery slope deserves to get paid 40 to 50 quid an hour !?
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jesus, when did i say that. I said a fair living wage while training!
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The world doesn't owe you a living (and certainly not a career as a ski instructor).
I guess you are about to find that out though.....
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I find that incredibly patronising, i already make a living from skiing, through hard work and finding an employer who values my ability as a teacher. I have worked extremely hard to get where I am, and I will continue to do so towards the ISTD and beyond.
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A lucky few eventually obviously do make a professional living out of snowsports - but if they have worked hard for an ISTD or Patent then they have earned that privilege.
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Like I have been saying all along! Yes they have earnt it, but it takes time (circa 5 seasons) to get to that level. How about a living wage while training? If not, then only rich kids will be able to do it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Anyone think about teaching in Australia? £13 an hour is about the starting salary for an unqualified rookie hire (depending where you're working), up to about £28 an hour for any recognised full cert qualification. Benefit of a greater demand for instructors than domestic supply maybe. Also in my opinion a higher ratio of ISIA and above instructors to lower qualified ones.
There are clear pay and work incentives for progressing up the levels, all of which is encouraged with internal training, and for those doing it as a year off, they still go away with 3 months of teaching hours and at the minimum an entry level qualification.
Possibly the benfits of having a very self contained domestic ski industry, while at the same time being able to ship labour abroad (although for the main outside of Europe) and import labour (for the main from Europe) successfully.
In all, a comparatively decently paid (from the view of average wages), well fostered industry that encourages continuing work overseas in the off season and return employment the next year. Or maybe i should work in their recruitment department.
EDIT: Also interestingly for some of the resorts there, there exists a fair pay award scheme that ensures wage rates within the industry. Possibly this is only for New South Wales resorts however.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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.... just a side point here. Bear in mind that unless you go to NZ / OZ or work in the UK in the Summer or whatever as a ski instructor in France you only have 6 months to make your money that will see you through the barren Summer. I am not ashamed to admit that in May time I find it tempting to spend the bulging bank account after the long (600 hours) teaching season.... at the other end of the scale by this time of the year I am DESPERATE to start work as the bills keep coming in and the bank balance is now back in the red.
Under French law your liabilities to the client and your remit is MUCH larger than elsewhere in the world e.g. when you take people off piste you are paid to be responsible for a persons life - likewise someone asks you to take you down a black run - you gotta be able to make the judgement call. If you get it wrong then you are liable to be sued and put in jail for manslaughter - therefore the training and the corresponding financial remuneration when you get through all the exams is justified I like to think.
Incidentally one of the reasons WHY british schools are VERY often oversubscribed for lessons in comparison to other schools is that the demand for native english speaking instructors is huge. Many British schools are CONSTANTLY asked by tour ops to by their school of choice / start reserving an instructor on an ongoing basis so that they can sell into that instructors hours on an ongoing basis. Sadly many British or independent schools are unable to take this request up because their are not enough of us. One day one would argue will come the critical mass / tipping balance when independent schools in France ARE big enough to change the view of the only option is a 'follow me and bend ze knees' lesson.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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How about a living wage while training? If not, then only rich kids will be able to do it.
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People do have living wages, and it is not only rich kids passing. If you have the ability and work hard you will pass courses and just have to do a lot of other jobs along the way to getting qualified, like most of us.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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jjc, agree with you, the stagieres that I know get a living wage, that's why I'm all for France and the French way, on the other hand I know people with their isia who were doing L4 training for a very well know British school who managed the grand total of 120hours last season! How can anyone live off that? And they paid for their training (and uniform). Another example of a British school taking the p@ss.
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skifluff, were you at the open forum at the BASI General Meeting on Saturday? I wasn't, but understand that a question was asked and answer given about what BASI is doing to try to establish British training centres.
It's probably a bit difficult to repeat in detail here, but I suggest you give the office a call, and ask to have a chat with someone on this topic.
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| beanie1 wrote: |
| were you at the open forum at the BASI General Meeting on Saturday? I wasn't, but understand that a question was asked and answer given about what BASI is doing to try to establish British training centres. |
Basic run down of the AGM:
* Chairman (Gareth) opened in his normal ebullient style.
* Legal stuff was done – agree to minutes of last AGM, etc.
* Hazel Bain award was presented – everyone agreed that Andy McCann is a dam fine chap and he won.
* 2 non-contested directors appointed:
* Heathley Clarke was voted in as the new Finance Director.
* Rachel Easton was voted in as the Adaptive Director (some higher level adaptive instructors have extremely strong views about this ?).
* It was decided that the BASI board will have a new director for Nordic skiing.
* Roz and Rob went head to head for the position of Co Sec. Roz won.
* Gareth said that as so many directors would be up for the vote next year, the votes/appointments will be staggered so that the board is not completely changed in one go.
* Dave Renouf gave a run down of the BASI training center in France stuff.
* Rob asked a question about the level of cash BASI has in the bank and why this is so much.
* I asked if BASI could send out a letter to all members to emphasise that the quarterly news letter is available in printed format – new girl Tania said she was looking at this already.
* Rob asked about ISIA / BASI stuff – he will post about this and the answer I hope.
* Lots of people got rounds of applause for the work they had done for things
* Me and Mrs_W went for a meal in the SnowCenter cafe – I had chicken, Mrs_W had salmon after which we watched the fireworks in Tamworth.
Sadly I must report that it was noted by some (well me anyway) that in a scandalous dereliction of the duty of care they hold to the members, the board failed to supply the promised biscuits that were to accompany the tea and coffee. As a result of this complete failure, by the entire board of directors and the CEO and other higher management of BASI, I had to purchase (at vast expense) a ginger bread man from Starbucks. I am sure all members will be already writing to the board to ensure this complete breakdown of the Biscuit Supply Chain is never allowed to happen again.
I have probably missed some bits, so someone else can pop in and add these.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Skifluff - not having a go. Just pointing out that most European ski instructors, apart from those in France, will never reach ISTD level. For the majority of kids and beginers lessons there is simply not a market for highly qualified and well paid instructors.
There is no point having a go at BASI or UK ski schools - they are just complying with strict French rules that, ironically, make it possible to eventually make a good career as a ski instructor in France. IMHO with L2 or ISIA you would be much better off working in Austria, CH or Italy or even a snowdome. Then move to France for the money once you are fully qualified. Either that or learn French and sign up with the ESF.
FWIW - 12 quid an hour works out about equivalent to 20K pro rata per year. A decent wage. The biggest problem for ski instructors is the seasonality - you can only work 5 months a year (something that put me off ski teaching...). Having said all that I find it incredible that a fully qualified French ski instructor can get paid 50-60 euros an hour. That is serious money. To train for any other profession that pays similar rates per hour would take at least 4 years ? (whilst at uni, college or doing an apprenticeship many people need to get some kind of casual work to cover their living costs!).
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Haggis_Trap
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| personally I find it incredible that a fully qualified French ski instructor can get paid 50-60 euros an hour. That is serious money. To train for any other profession that pays similiar rates per hour would take at least 4 years ? |
How can it be put in any simpler way:
IT DOES TAKE AT LEAST 4 YEARS
When you get your ISTD you get equivalence in France - this equivalence is for a full university equivalent degree (diplome as the French call). It is considered along the same lines as having completed a MASTERS level university course and instructors in France are generally held in the same public light as say school teachers are in the UK from the point of view as standing in society. When you take into account that it costs about £20,000 for the average person to get their ISTD (most of that is course fees, training, lift passes to access the terrain etc) then you can understand why it equates to a university degree for which the average starting salary in the UK I believe is about £20-£25k per annum.
Also as previously stated YES the per hour rate is very generous BUT and it is a big but finding employment for the other 6 months of the year where you do anything other than break even is a tough call for most instructors.
So to conclude for similar financial and time investment the 'salary' is 'average' for a professional vocation.
....also just to note it is VIRTUALLY impossible to get loss of earnings insurance for this career so you have a big risk on your side all the time (you are self employed as an ISTD working on a freelance basis typically). Two years ago a colleague in Val d'Isere had a bag accident on the first day of the season (its a long story) and was off skis for nearly 12 months so that was NO income for a year!!!!!
ALSO many of us pay tax in France which is shall we say rather heavier than in the UK but that is the downside of having a career that is so 'fun and enjoyable' as some have said.
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| 50-60 euros an hour. That is serious money. |
yes it is but it should not be taken totally at face value.
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FAQ
