 Poster: A snowHead
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With topics like this could I suggest that snowheads with professional experience who offer opinions add some sort of rider to their post explaining that fact. There's a big difference between well-intentioned anecdotal evidence from someone like me, and stuff from people who really demonstrably know their stuff.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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When I coached fencing, which being a lunging sport required a great deal of flexibility, we used to give the students a good warm up including plenty of jogging and only then do a gentle series of stretching exercises which were more of a loosening up process, never trying to push the body very far. Yup - stretching cold muscles causes a great deal of (usually minor) injuries.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'd agree with the comments of Manda + others that excessive stretching of cold muscles is bad.
However ... skiing on unpredictable terain can produce jolting strains on your muscles, and it is advantageous to warm up the muscles (partciularly in the legs) with gentle stretches to warm up the muscles in a controlled environment. Yes a 20 minute cardio workout before hand is might potentially help as well, but being realistic, when you open the curtains and see 6" of fresh snow (and a nasty hangover), that's probably the last thing on your mind!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Same situation in climbing - apart from the walk in which really warms you up. In winter you often find yourself standing on a cramped ledge in freezing winter conditions whilst belaying someone for an hour. Then, when you can hardly move your limbs you have to set off up the route stretching to your limits. It's a wonder that pulled muscles seem to be quite rare - but aching a little the next day is pretty common.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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kamikaze, the problem is that a lot of people mistake stretching for warming up - when for practical purposes the two may as well be mutually exclusive. As John says, what stretching does is elongate muscle fibres which have become contracted during exercise. Stretching in of itself does not warm up the body.
The main means of reducing injury is by SLOWLY and gently doing some cardio and thereby warming up your heart and lungs (and everything else) to the point where everything is pumping along nicely, you've worked up a mild sweat, and you actually feel ready to sprint off & put in quite a lot more effort.
kamikaze, to be honest, if you've only got 5 minutes before getting on the lift, then do nothing at all till you get on the slope. Then just pootle around quietly on blue slopes for 20 mintues or so until your heart and lungs are working well. Precisely because skiing DOES jolt you around, you need to be properly warmed up so your body is in the best possible state to cope with it.
I'll repeat myself for good measure:
1) Cardio warms up all the organs and muscles and prepares it for the stresses of exercise. So warm up properly.
2) Stretching won't "warm up" the body, so don't expect it to help as an alternative to properly warming up. Stretch after you've warmed up, if you must. But research suggests it's not necessary.
3) Stretching not long AFTER exercise is vital to return contracted muscles to their normal range of movement.
4) Leave off stretching until the next morning (instead of "warming up"), and you're MORE likely to injure yourself.
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Scarpa, Mr Manda used to fence for NZ! 
You're right, tho - physically demanding sports require you to be properly warmed up beforehand. Over the years I've played so many different sports requiring good fitness (not that I actually still have good fitness!), and it teaches you a thing or two...
My current hobby is rowing - races are a 7 minute sprint, but as a crew we still spend about 15 minutes jogging, a further 10 minutes on upperbody joint mobilisation, a further 10 minutes on lower body joint mobilisation, and then 20 minutes warmup in the boat on the water before the race is even called - by which point I'm normally sweating comfortably.
Which, to be fair, is all a bit extreme to some people who consider themselves "on holiday" when they're skiing. But even taking just 15 minutes to gently but properly warm up will improve things for even the most sluggish of skiers.
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When my dog wakes up in the morning the first thing he does is stretch.
Should I tie him up at night and only let him stretch after he's done a 20 min cardio workout?
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Should I tie him up at night and only let him stretch after he's done a 20 min cardio workout?
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Only on the days he's going skiing  .
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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It seems to me that there's always some dogma in this kind of thing, as there is in many branches of medicine. There is then the tendency for what was once promulgated with fervour to become denigrated as outmoded just a short time later. As has been mentioned there was a study which showed that stretching pre-performance amongst professional athletes was not beneficial and may indeed be detrimental to performance. However, when I stretch these days, I get various cracks and clicks and rattles emanating from several points on my anatomy (soundtrack available by PM for nominal charge), and immediately feel a little looser. Much, I'm sure, like DB's dog, though he may well be a better skier. Of course, I'm doing a lazy stretch and not a full and systematic one and just to clear things up for everyone, I think it is the cold full and systematic muscle uber-stretch that might cause injuries. I do save that for after I exercise.
On another point, I used to get my shins and feet cramp up a bit, but now do a 5 minute running on the spot or steps or something before donning my boots to get the circulation in the lower legs going and no longer have the problem.
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Actually, one could pick a hotel that is 10 min away from the lifts/bus stop. Walking that distance with all yer gear will get you nice and warm. This way you also can save some money (cheaper location)!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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My dog doesn't ski. I did want to send him for lessons but could only find boarding Kennels . Although he would of been an expert by the end of the week I didn't want him sitting in the middle of the piste.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Or sitting anywhere else, hopefully
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What a long thread...trying to pull it back into shape then:
I infer from the original question (c.1976? feels that old anyway) that doogo is asking how to prevent aching thighs after a long run - the core inference being a long cruisy run? doogo, please correct if wrong.
Has anyone mentioned technique? If you are properly balanced and neutral then IMHO your actual work on "flat" - i.e. non-bumpy - blues and reds should be minimal at cruise (whatever that means for you) speeds. If you're getting burning thighs it might be a symptom of poor stance?
My apologies if I've just re-diverted the thread back up a cul-de-sac it had successully u-turned itself back out of!!
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You know it makes sense.
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
| My apologies if I've just re-diverted the thread back up a cul-de-sac it had successully u-turned itself back out of!! |
David, a few of us have said similar things but I think the majority of the posts have been more about fitness. You could always read it - it's only 4 pages 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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No, no, no! You want to maximize the burn.  That burning feeling is good! I reccomend that you find the longest bump run on the mountain and ski it as fast as you can with super-g skis. That will set your thighs on fire.
Actually now that I'm a reformed toad, I don't do that anymore. In fact, I do it a lot less. Really the best approach is to build up to it. Go skiing a few times at your local small hill before you meet that long bump run. Always warm up properly, even if it does nothing for the burn. Do something to cool down afterwards too. Get that lactic acid out of your legs. Your last run should be a cool-down lap, followed by a walk to a place that serves pints.
I'm not a fitnes expert, just adding anecdotes.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Ghost, I suggest that you lose one of those anecdotes - it is not lactic acid that causes the burn.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| john wells wrote: |
| Ghost, I suggest that you lose one of those anecdotes - it is not lactic acid that causes the burn. |
what does then ?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The walk after skiing, the pint, and the getting rid of the lactic acid helps one stay in the mood for developing more burn the next day. The warm up helps prevent injury. It's just the working up to it that actually has an effect on the burn.
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Royal, no idea - probably a metabolite. People who cannot make lactic acid in their muscles still get the burn - also the burn dissipates quickly whereas the lactic acid takes longer to clear.
This is a good example of where someone had a good idea; the burn and the production of lactic acid happenening at the same time means a connection; and everybody takes it as the truth without checking. Not much science in the fitness industry and little inclination to ask "why".
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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As well as 'warming up' - any one tried not drinking alocohol (at all) the night before ? 
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john wells, I've never looked into this. Why can't they make lactic acid and if they can't where does the glycolytic pathway stop? Could lactic acid not be the cause of burn in normals and the precursor/metabolite where the pathway stops/goes cause it in those affected individuals?
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| ski wrote: |
| As well as 'warming up' - any one tried not drinking alocohol (at all) the night before ? |
Yup makes no differnce at all. Muscles are either fit or not. The burn surely depends on how far you push the muscles.
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People with myophosphorylase deficiency, who cannot produce lactate and whose muscles become slightly alkalotic during physical activity, develop similar pain. Also, for the average person, at the end of intensive exercise muscle remains acidic for 1-2 minutes and plasma lactate remains high for 5-10 minutes.
I am paraphrasing Jones, Round & de Haan "Skeletal Muscle from Molecules to Movement".
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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slikedges, are you attached to the University or a medic in Oxford?
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| john wells wrote: |
| Lots of stuff that I didnt understand. |
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I think the burn might have something to do with the muscle using up the available oxygen and wanting more.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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john wells, just an ignorant medic, no longer formally attached to any university, thank heavens.
I just wonder if the innervation of muscle can be expected to be sophisticated enough to recognise anything more than that there is a temporary biochemical abnormality, and if having cleared the lactic acid (and burn?) from muscle fibres and supporting tissues, the high plasma lactate (the acid already buffered) matters
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slikedges, would the studies done for short-term anaerobic effort with baking soda buffering answer your question?
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You know it makes sense.
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slikedges, Professor Jones is contending that the acidosis is not the major cause of the muscle pain based on the observations of Sir Thomas Lewis. I believe that the theory is that the circulation is occluded during high intensity exercise which is linked to the pain and that the pain ceases within 10-20 seconds of the occlusion ceasing due to the restoration of the circulation washing away the metabolite(s) and this happens sooner than the lactic acid is cleared. Maybe there is still a fair amount of guessing going on here but the specific research does indicate that it is not the lactic acid.
The dwell time of the lactate was really a comment on his observation that "lactate and hydrogen ions have long been considered the cause of all muscle aches and pains".
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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dont you just love it when the boffs dont have a clue ?
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Poster: A snowHead
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comprex, dunno, not familiar with them I'm afraid, john wells?
john wells, fair enough, you're saying the burn goes within 20 sec or so, but the muscle doesn't actually clear lactic acid for 1-2min. Must go and time my burn! 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Royal, it's all very clever and sophisticated stuff. Ever played Mornington Crescent?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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slikedges,
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Mornington Crescent is a strategy game played on the London Underground map, the aim being to move to Mornington Crescent. So far, so much like any other game.
But then, not every game has a 125 volume rulebook; few games have (literally) warring standards bodies; and no other game has an oral tradition stretching back to pre-Pharaonic Egypt.
Having pointed out these truths about Mornington Crescent, you will I am sure understand me when I say that I cannot explain the Game - steeped in theory though it is, you must play MC to understand it. |
NO !
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Royal, do a sH search! 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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john wells, was it you I heard on the radio at lunchtime today telling us that a 21 minute exercise programme once a week is all we need to get and stay fit? I like the sound of that!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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ski, that is the most ridiculous post I have read all day.
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RachelQ, yep; it is high intensity training but is quick.
The focus of the 21 minute workout is the unfit and semi-fit as they are the people who most need to exercise and are the most reluctant.
Skiers are sports people so should be able to push for really high intensity for maximum results.
It is strength training using slow controlled movements with good form (no cheating). Very safe, very effective and takes little time.
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Fitness is as fitness does. When people say 'I'm fit', fit for what? Marathon, Triathlon, Football? You have to train specifically for the sport you wish to participate in. Running for miles and miles may well increase your stamina, but it will not have a great effect on your blue run cruising skiing.
Specific ski-fitness training using some of the techniques described above, as well as your usual workouts will give you a huge benefit. Biking, particularly mountain biking (not necessarily on a mountain but the riding position a mountain bike offers) helps me a great deal.
21 mins a week? Maybe for some big fatty.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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21 mins a week? Maybe for some big fatty
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Yup would suit me fine 
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Shall we start on ski length? Then Croatia and hydrodynamics.
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FAQ
